Explosion near Red Fort: At least 9 dead, several injured in blast

No, Rafale india specific changes was a part of the deal with France even for 36 we bought. Actually that was the reason why the price per plane was so high. We were paying for India specific changes and a lot of fixed setup costs.
I'm talking about new proposal by IAF dude which MoD rejected recently. MoD put it on hold saying not enough Indigenisation..
 
  • Like
Reactions: Shan and Aniruddha
If we are going to talk about defence budget then the discussion should be based on granular data for better understanding than unnecessary jibes. I hope members here are intelligent enough to understand that. I'm doing my part here by sharing this here. And we have to look at the budget through % of Budget rather than GDP to understand it at a more microeconomics level. Most of our friends here look at it through a Macroeconomical lense and think why this and why that. One of the gross misconception people in defence circle have is social spendings are eating away defence spendings. But it isn't entirely true. There is more to decrease in share of defence budget as % of annual budget than some social schemes. There are industrial subsidies, road, railways, semiconductor, etc. too. Those also cost money. And government don't have infinite money. The Budget growth is not linearly related to growth in GDP.

 
Actully, both are different things.

GoI was compelled to act and it did bare minimum. It did not attack Pakistan's military. Because it knew that in full fledged war, Indian forces will not be having enough material to fight a war.

Also if GoI had told USA to *censored* itself, US did not have enough time to react. And at worst, US would have to openly support Pakistan with its miliary and that would have undermined its own interests. After conflict in which most of Pakistan's top leadership was targetted and killed, US would have negotiated peacefully because its own interests were there in working with India.

GoI chickened out becuse it had very little confidence in its forces due to its own decades of neglect. Its incompetence not pragmatic geopolitics or diplomacy.

Disagree here.
Pakistan did that for us when they decided to hit our civilians and military targets. And we did hit them pretty hard - you can label the initial strike (terror target only) as bare minimum (even though it was in Pak heartland) - but the follow on strikes (11+ bases & what not) that was massive. Remember it was Pak that came begging for us to stop. I don’t think those strikes would have happened if GoI didn’t have faith on the military to be able to sustain the conflict.
 
Actully, both are different things.

GoI was compelled to act and it did bare minimum. It did not attack Pakistan's military. Because it knew that in full fledged war, Indian forces will not be having enough material to fight a war.

Also if GoI had told USA to *censored* itself, US did not have enough time to react. And at worst, US would have to openly support Pakistan with its miliary and that would have undermined its own interests. After conflict in which most of Pakistan's top leadership was targetted and killed, US would have negotiated peacefully because its own interests were there in working with India.

GoI chickened out becuse it had very little confidence in its forces due to its own decades of neglect. Its incompetence not pragmatic geopolitics or diplomacy.

What are you on about here? Any basis for your rationale?

There's wasn't Confidence in forces?

I don't think you realised the significance of what we did during op sindoor yet. It wasn't strike at loc or little further than that. It was the very heart, brain, muscle.. everything of Pakistan. And it was first such operation under nuclear threshold and new generation weapons. Those terrorist bases weren't built in some outskirts of under forest areas, away from sight. They were built and run openly in the heartland of Pakistan. So, when those missiles came.. it wasn't just the terrorists that died. The idea that retaliation would be limited to borders died too. Civilian ( sympathisers+ normal person living day by day, far away from politics but supporting the state) saw missile coming and destroying camps that was just next to his city. A kind of camp that might be running in his city too, which he knows can be the next target. The realisation that his support to terrorists won't be without consequences anymore. The sheer psychological effect it likely had... it won't show it's results in a day. Pak Military and it's terrorists will be desperate. Others will be in dilemma for their safety.
Same way how non stop terrorist attacks in 90s to 2013 had on our ( common Indian people) psyche. But as a victim of agression, our psyche changed into agressive from being passive. For an agreessor, it has potential to be opposite. The only caveat is "repeated". Hence, you see all of us waiting for the response that was promised to us in May.

1971 didnt see missiles targeting cities. And this significance reflects in the reaction which USA had post the operation. It's not as if GOI didn't know that a hegemon doesn't like others to do things which only it was privy to. Contrary to what you may believe.. people in current GOI are not naive. They didn't get to the seat due to inheritance or pre prepared stage for them. They have seen the world. The worst of it.
They knew and hence you didn't see GOI being flustered like they would've been if they didn't calculate US reaction and got caught off guard. Outside of Twitter tussle.. if you just look at events as they folded.. India's position has been steady. Sure, they would've liked if PM didn't have to put statement against Trump, which was opposition was hell bent on, knowing the nature of Trump. Even then, they handled it by saying " no world leader" instead of " No Trump". Now, for those who consider pres of US as world leader, it was enough. For those who don't, they can keep living in delusion.


There are many things to point out and criticise. But dude.. after 1971, this is the first GOI that has shown confidence in our forces. And, if you wanna talk about preparedness, the first comparison needs to be between where we were heading in 2013 and the change in trajectory after it. Only a naive or narrative peddler will think that things are same. I have witnessed full UPA era and have been witnessing NDA era too.. the defense sector.. from "there's no need of border infra", " dossiers", " pak is also victim", "westland scam", " chronic deficiencies" to → ongoing Rapid buildup of border infra despite the hurdles, an industry going through overhaul in it's working, steering public sentiment towards taking defense as priority, OP sindoor. The biggest lie would be saying govt doesn't have confidence in its forces.

But having confidence doesn't mean not doing preparation either. To understand that, gotta look at 2016→2019→2025. So, criticise all you want. But not based on propaganda and lies.

Better to ask govt to increase funding for schemes like idex, liberalise the sector so more Indians can participate etc. To massively update it's Information warfare policy, SOPs, tools etc. That was the thing GOI lacked. Not the confidence in forces.

And contrary to your claim of being "compelled", Indians have seen far worse attacks and GOI doing nothing but play talk talk with terrorists.. yet GOI didn't feel " compelled" to change its policy on terror. And UPA got elected for second term after one of the biggest attacks in India.
So, what you are calling as being compelled is their own policy. A policy which stands at juncture and going a test.
 
Last edited:
I'm talking about new proposal by IAF dude which MoD rejected recently. MoD put it on hold saying not enough Indigenisation..
That is a ploy to delay or derail Rafale purchase. Truth is, no one in India can manufacture critical parts needed for Rafale. This entire 75% indeginization is a bullshit that can never be achieved. Tejas for instance, is only 60% by value indegenous and 76% by LRU count (HAL Tejas fighter jet: How much of India’s indigenous fighter jet is really homegrown?). So to expect indegenization in Rafale at 75% is not just laughable, it is simply a barefaced lie to delay or derail the deal. The real reason is elsewhere. I do not fully understand it.

My bet is that GoI wants Dassault to make some concessions (price, technology transfer or even kick backs for that matter) thats why it is giving such impossible targets. Or they are under political pressure to purchase some other fighter.

BTW, even if GoI signs deal tomorrow, first fights will not start arriving by 2030s, making entire point of the deal rather less important. The GtoG deal signed in 2014-15 should have been complete 150-160 Rafales.
 
Please do shed some light on this aspect. This particular revelation of yours needs to be backed up with sources or evidence.
It is pretty obvious, isnt it? ISI is behind this bomb blast near red fort. We drew a line in sand in May and they crossed it. Previously in April, it was a direct challenge to Modi.

In both instances, top leadership of ISI and Pakistan's military should have been taken out and their investments in Pakistan turned to dust. Killing rando mullah is not going to do much. You need leadership of ISI and Munir dead or on the run. You do it once, you draw a line in sand again.... try it and we will come to you directly. Not the government of Pakistan, not the people of Pakistan but Pakistan military and its leaders.

We did the polar opposite. We killed rando mullahs, their families, blew up their mosques. And only when our military bases were attacked we responded by doing limited damaged to all of their military bases.

This is very stupid way of conducting business. Better would have been to strike and kill Munir, his family and all of his inner circle so publically that for next few generation Pakistan generals will fear doing what he started.

The next question is why this was not done. The reason is simple. This means war. And India does not want to fight war. Because our military budget is only 1.9% of our GDP. Because most of it goes into salary and pensions (20 billion + 19 billions in pensions and salaries) and only 20 billion in capital expenses. Quite simply, Indian forces are under equipped. We are missing :

1. BVR missiles having flight envelop to challenge Pakistan's topline aircrafts.

2. Our topline fighters are similar in numbers as theirs (36 Rafales and 36 J10Cs). It should have been 160 to 36 for the size of economy we have.

3. During high intensity combat for less than a week, we started running out of our topline suicide drones from Israel. That should have never happened.

4. Only very few Sukhois in India can deploy one Brahmos at a time. Their numbers are less than 2 squad strength. Brahmos integration should have been a standard feature in ALL of our Sukhois so all of them can do long range SOW A2G missions.

5. We did not deploy AEW&Cs and it is unknown if our AEW&Cs are integrated with our Rafales. Our AE&WCs are lower in number compared to our airforce strength, are less advanced. We should have been flielding something like EL/W-2085 (a successor to Phalcon system) and in large numbers. Incedently, EL/W-2085 is also used by Italy so likely meteor guidance must be integrated with it. We are waiting for our DRDO Netra which is obselete before it arrived and seriously lacks integration with western weapons.

6. We did not buy and field anti AWACS missiles. For some weird reason.

7. R37-M was a no brainer purchase even in 2019 for Su-30MKIs. It is not done till date.

8. For some wierd reason, India does not do electronic warfare at all. Neither it hunts those who do. It is in forever development mode for a ARM platform.

9. Our MLRS is still limited by Smerch range. Pinaka variants with long range have been under chronic development cycle for ever. And we do not buy long range rockets to counter 400 KM range rocket artillery operated by Pakistan and developed by China. We should have been procuring or have completed development and deployment of 400 mm rockets of ranges 400-500 KM. Heck we could have one-uped Pakistan by equipping our rockets with precision guidance like these israeli ones (EPIK kit).

10. We for some reason are setting our Navy for failure. Pakistan will soon get their hands on AIP propulsion subs while we will be forever waiting for the entire "oh its done... oh its not certified... oh its not tested.. oh we need Kilo sub to test it... oh it does not work..." loop of "indegenous AIP" development. India should have been fielding subs with AIP by now. And heck, dare I say we should have unlinked procurement of new subs from our own AIP development. Our AIP development should have been kept only for our own locally designed subs.

I do not think I need sources for any of the above. It is clear that we lack political will to keep our forces modern and functional enough and that lack of political will causes under captaliztion of our forces and that leads our leadership to have less confidence in our forces and cycle continues.
 
  • Agree
  • Like
Reactions: Kiduva21 and Paro
That is a ploy to delay or derail Rafale purchase. Truth is, no one in India can manufacture critical parts needed for Rafale. This entire 75% indeginization is a bullshit that can never be achieved. Tejas for instance, is only 60% by value indegenous and 76% by LRU count (HAL Tejas fighter jet: How much of India’s indigenous fighter jet is really homegrown?). So to expect indegenization in Rafale at 75% is not just laughable, it is simply a barefaced lie to delay or derail the deal. The real reason is elsewhere. I do not fully understand it.

My bet is that GoI wants Dassault to make some concessions (price, technology transfer or even kick backs for that matter) thats why it is giving such impossible targets. Or they are under political pressure to purchase some other fighter.

BTW, even if GoI signs deal tomorrow, first fights will not start arriving by 2030s, making entire point of the deal rather less important. The GtoG deal signed in 2014-15 should have been complete 150-160 Rafales.
Or Simply perhaps they want Dassault to shift more of their supply chain here. No need to malice in every intent..75% could very well be just an attempt to negotiate to reach a middle ground somewhere.
 
Or Simply perhaps they want Dassault to shift more of their supply chain here.
Yeah, right. And get the first Made in India Rafale by.... 2040. That will be so swell, right? Its a foolish dream that HAL which can not get a stupid Intermediate Trainer Jet flying and delivered in 28 years (HAL HJT-36 Yashas - Wikipedia) and counting will be able to build Rafale in India with indegenous content upto 75% (LRU or Value) in just 4-5 years.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Paro
Yeah, right. And get the first Made in India Rafale by.... 2040. That will be so swell, right?
So purchase Rafale in hurry by G2G? May I ask you why ISA upgrade is not full implemented yet cuz we hurried and purchased those jet via G2G. Look man I get it we need Jets but look even if make an order for 128 jets now those aren't arriving any time soon. So it's not a bad idea to negotiate with Dassault to have better deal.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Aniruddha
So purchase Rafale in hurry by G2G? May I ask you why ISA upgrade is not full implemented yet cuz we hurried and purchased those jet via G2G. Look man I get it we need Jets but look even if make an order for 128 jets now those aren't arriving any time soon. So it's not a bad idea to negotiate with Dassault to have better deal.
I mean, the jets will arrive fastest if we order them earliest. Ideally it should have been done in 2015 by ordering all 136 odd jets. The next best time is now.

Also ISA upgrade? Sorry, whats that acronym again?
 
I mean, the jets will arrive fastest if we order them earliest. Ideally it should have been done in 2015 by ordering all 136 odd jets. The next best time is now.

Also ISA upgrade? Sorry, whats that acronym again?
Ideally, it should've been done before 2015. Ideally Tejas should've been invested in properly in 90s. Ideally Marut should've been continued and invest in R&D. 🤷.

Ideally socialism and license raj policies should've never implemented in the name of protecting economy. All it did was protect cronyism.

Sadly, we don't live in an ideal world. A completely new govt in first or second year of its term would hardly greenlight such large orders when forces lacked even basic systems.
 

Isn't a month-long NOTAM, over this relatively small airspace kind of curious? If it were regular air exercises, a week would have sufficed. GaganShakti 2018 was massive, involved almost every combat-capable aircraft and was spread across both Eastern and Western theatres, and even that didn't exceed two weeks IIRC....

Or maybe I'm overthinking it...
 
Ideally, it should've been done before 2015. Ideally Tejas should've been invested in properly in 90s. Ideally Marut should've been continued and invest in R&D. 🤷.

Ideally socialism and license raj policies should've never implemented in the name of protecting economy. All it did was protect cronyism.

Sadly, we don't live in an ideal world. A completely new govt in first or second year of its term would hardly greenlight such large orders when forces lacked even basic systems.
Well, if not done is 2015, next best time is now! Instead of delaying it with worthless excuses like "Atam-hatya bharat" content, just order the damn planes and be done with it.
 
I mean, the jets will arrive fastest if we order them earliest. Ideally it should have been done in 2015 by ordering all 136 odd jets. The next best time is now.

Also ISA upgrade? Sorry, whats that acronym again?
Was a typo. I meant ISE. India Specific Enhancement.
 
It is pretty obvious, isnt it? ISI is behind this bomb blast near red fort. We drew a line in sand in May and they crossed it. Previously in April, it was a direct challenge to Modi.

In both instances, top leadership of ISI and Pakistan's military should have been taken out and their investments in Pakistan turned to dust. Killing rando mullah is not going to do much. You need leadership of ISI and Munir dead or on the run. You do it once, you draw a line in sand again.... try it and we will come to you directly. Not the government of Pakistan, not the people of Pakistan but Pakistan military and its leaders.

We did the polar opposite. We killed rando mullahs, their families, blew up their mosques. And only when our military bases were attacked we responded by doing limited damaged to all of their military bases.

This is very stupid way of conducting business. Better would have been to strike and kill Munir, his family and all of his inner circle so publically that for next few generation Pakistan generals will fear doing what he started.

The next question is why this was not done. The reason is simple. This means war. And India does not want to fight war. Because our military budget is only 1.9% of our GDP. Because most of it goes into salary and pensions (20 billion + 19 billions in pensions and salaries) and only 20 billion in capital expenses. Quite simply, Indian forces are under equipped. We are missing :

1. BVR missiles having flight envelop to challenge Pakistan's topline aircrafts.

2. Our topline fighters are similar in numbers as theirs (36 Rafales and 36 J10Cs). It should have been 160 to 36 for the size of economy we have.

3. During high intensity combat for less than a week, we started running out of our topline suicide drones from Israel. That should have never happened.

4. Only very few Sukhois in India can deploy one Brahmos at a time. Their numbers are less than 2 squad strength. Brahmos integration should have been a standard feature in ALL of our Sukhois so all of them can do long range SOW A2G missions.

5. We did not deploy AEW&Cs and it is unknown if our AEW&Cs are integrated with our Rafales. Our AE&WCs are lower in number compared to our airforce strength, are less advanced. We should have been flielding something like EL/W-2085 (a successor to Phalcon system) and in large numbers. Incedently, EL/W-2085 is also used by Italy so likely meteor guidance must be integrated with it. We are waiting for our DRDO Netra which is obselete before it arrived and seriously lacks integration with western weapons.

6. We did not buy and field anti AWACS missiles. For some weird reason.

7. R37-M was a no brainer purchase even in 2019 for Su-30MKIs. It is not done till date.

8. For some wierd reason, India does not do electronic warfare at all. Neither it hunts those who do. It is in forever development mode for a ARM platform.

9. Our MLRS is still limited by Smerch range. Pinaka variants with long range have been under chronic development cycle for ever. And we do not buy long range rockets to counter 400 KM range rocket artillery operated by Pakistan and developed by China. We should have been procuring or have completed development and deployment of 400 mm rockets of ranges 400-500 KM. Heck we could have one-uped Pakistan by equipping our rockets with precision guidance like these israeli ones (EPIK kit).

10. We for some reason are setting our Navy for failure. Pakistan will soon get their hands on AIP propulsion subs while we will be forever waiting for the entire "oh its done... oh its not certified... oh its not tested.. oh we need Kilo sub to test it... oh it does not work..." loop of "indegenous AIP" development. India should have been fielding subs with AIP by now. And heck, dare I say we should have unlinked procurement of new subs from our own AIP development. Our AIP development should have been kept only for our own locally designed subs.

I do not think I need sources for any of the above. It is clear that we lack political will to keep our forces modern and functional enough and that lack of political will causes under captaliztion of our forces and that leads our leadership to have less confidence in our forces and cycle continues.
Wdym we dont do EW at all? Our EW is still a work in progress but this is such a ludicrous assumption. We literally spooked so many PL15s wasn't that a case of EW? We even have ELINT satellites though it is only 1 in number. Rest of the rant is 100% true however.

P.S it was confirmed by air force Netra AWACS was deployed during Sindoor. But our AWACS strength is pitifully low as you said.
 
Well, if not done is 2015, next best time is now! Instead of delaying it with worthless excuses like "Atam-hatya bharat" content, just order the damn planes and be done with it.
Honestly you should look at the order book of Rafale. It's full. Tejas Mk2 would probably get inducted before the first Rafale would arrive even if GoI start the process of acquiring Rafale anytime soon. When you are going get those jets after a long time anyways, then you might as well have a good deal with some extra.
 
Honestly you should look at the order book of Rafale. It's full. Tejas Mk2 would probably get inducted before the first Rafale would arrive even if GoI start the process of acquiring Rafale anytime soon. When you are going get those jets after a long time anyways, then you might as well have a good deal with some extra.
Yea Mk2 is looking like 2031/2032 production start, maybe 30 units by 2035. Imo Mk2 with Gandiva is as deadly if not more, because we can integrate it with our Netra AWACS and satellites which makes it more networked and more survivable.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: BoredBear
Well, if not done is 2015, next best time is now! Instead of delaying it with worthless excuses like "Atam-hatya bharat" content, just order the damn planes and be done with it.

What you call excuses are the very thing we criticise previous govts for not doing. And their reason was same as yours.

TO make a capable defense sector in today's environment, you need to make some tough call. Atma-nirbhar bharat is not a 5 year plan. It's a vision towards the very capability that any pro- Indian defense watcher was dying for.

And what do we even know what kind of deal Dassault is even offering. Earlier there was whole hype about F-35, Rolls Royce unprecedented offer.. but it was limited to articles only. There wasn't confirmation from RR side on what they proposed.

Ofcourse as rest of the people already pointed out, the timeline of any rafale being delivered in needed quantity doesn't justify to go in for a huge purchase with a bad deal in name of emergency. While it's true that there's a lot to be desired for.. Pakistan isnt USA. It can hardly match us right now. It will be degraded before the stockpiles and systems of IAF face any logistical issues.
The only joker card is China. Not even turkey can sustain it. So, GOI and forces will have to plan out on how to block Chinese keeping supply line open. Both diplomatically and military.

As for the manufacturing of products for war of attrition with even bigger adversary.. I have just one point to make for where we were, where we are and where we will be. That is, you cannot Separate defense manufacturing from overall infrastructure and economy of a nation either. For that you need to look at expenditure in infrastructure ( from roads to railways, connectivity, logistics, housing etc). Cause these are the fundamentals which make it feasible for factories to open and run efficiently. A unit can't work if it's supply is getting late on account of slow travel. If you are serious about knowing if govt has done anything, look at the track record. If you can't find, many experts here probably keep an eye on such things. I am sure someone will lend you a hand.

For future, wether it's the increased reach through railways, border infrastructure, or new labor law reforms.. these all are part of the efforts to ramp up manufacturing. Wether it's AI labs, Semiconductor Fabs, quantum startup, space startup.. they will be the backbone of our future warfare capability. So, it's not just catching up to present. We need to catch up to future adversaries.

Should this have been done decades ago? Well, ideally.. I already answered for that.


Not everything is hunky dory, and many of us discussing with you here are very vocal when we need to criticise actions or lack thereof. But that doesn't mean we have given into the propoganda and narrative of spending per gdp, ladli behna etc. As if opposition using freebies to win (farm loan waiver MP, Delhi freebies, WB , Karnataka) elections increases our capex. They wouldn't do even this much of they had their way. Atleast GOI ismt reducing share of defense spending per annual budget. Iirc, capex for 2025 was one of the highest ever, both in number and utilisation.
I am the last person who will side with freebies, but I also understand that it's GOI and GOI isn't MoD. It needs to factor the very thing that makes it possible to be GOI. That's what you get for freedom. Otherwise China is very efficient too, you just can't criticise them like you did by using slur for schemes name.
 
Last edited:
I do not think I need sources for any of the above.
You've pretty much listed a series of procurement missteps. It also lists certain missed opportunities.

"Indian forces will not be having enough material to fight a war."

This is a blanket statement and has the overarching meaning of stating that the Indian military is simply incapable of conducting warfare.

I am sorry but I will have to disagree.
1. BVR missiles having flight envelop to challenge Pakistan's topline aircrafts.
You've advocated for the Rafale. As part of the ISE, it came with the Meteor. Even if I consider an inventory of 200-300 of them as listed in OSINT. That's adequate for a short war alongside the S-400.
3. During high intensity combat for less than a week, we started running out of our topline suicide drones from Israel. That should have never happened.
Oh, is that so? What reasoning lies behind this? Let us know how you would run a Loitering Op considering the situation along the LoC and IB.
8. For some wierd reason, India does not do electronic warfare at all. Neither it hunts those who do. It is in forever development mode for a ARM platform.
You've got to be kidding me. So, India did zero EW? Please cite a source for this and allow us to analyze this paper that provided you this information. I find this to be an absurd statement w/o proper documentation.
6. We did not buy and field anti AWACS missiles. For some weird reason.
Considering the S-400 that is being used on the frontline, I am pretty sure that AWACS at the very least can be targeted. R-37 is a missed opportunity. On this I agree.
Our MLRS is still limited by Smerch range. Pinaka variants with long range have been under chronic development cycle for ever. And we do not buy long range rockets to counter 400 KM range rocket artillery operated by Pakistan and developed by China. We should have been procuring or have completed development and deployment of 400 mm rockets of ranges 400-500 KM. Heck we could have one-uped Pakistan by equipping our rockets with precision guidance like these israeli ones (EPIK kit).
This is under development, with the 120 km variant being under trial. I do not think you need an MLRS rocket exceeding 250-300km to specifically deal with Pakistan. There is an array of SOWs that did what was necessary. In case you did not notice, 11 airbases were hit by them. A deficiency sure.
4. Only very few Sukhois in India can deploy one Brahmos at a time. Their numbers are less than 2 squad strength. Brahmos integration should have been a standard feature in ALL of our Sukhois so all of them can do long range SOW A2G missions.
40 Sukhois were being kitted to carry the Brahmos-A. All Rafales can carry the SCALP. I do not know the exact fleet size that can carry the Crystal Maze and the Rampage. There are plenty FAs available for A2G SOW missions. Should more be inducted? Sure. However, this claim kind of falls flat when discussing Pakistan.

I disagree with your generic take. However, there are some missed opportunities on which I can only say that maybe next time. I do not know how ops are planned nor do I have access to such material that can allow me to make a statement that the Indian forces are incapable of waging war on the subcontinent.