Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

Why are the 13 India Specific Enhancements, "India specific"? Every fighter flying in 2016 either already supported it, or provided it as an option or a pod. Even if India wanted some of these integrated instead of Pod, I am puzzled by the ones in red that were standard/default in export variants. When Qatar exercises some of these options, are they called QSE?

EnhancementRafale + ISEF-16F/A-18E/FTyphoonGripen C/D
Radio Altimeter (extended)YesYesYesYesYes
Radar Warning Receiver (RWR)YesYesYesYesYes
Low Band JammerYesYes/PodYes/PodYesYes/Pod
Flight Data Recorder (extended)YesYesYesYesYes
High Altitude Engine StartYesYesYesYesYes
Radar NCTRYesYesYesYesYes
Radar DBS / SAR modesYesYesYes/PodYesYes/Pod
Radar GMTI/TYesYes/PodYes/PodYes/PodYes/Pod
IRSTYesNo (not baseline)No (not baseline)Partial (PIRATE IRST in some)Partial (option on some)
Helmet Mounted DisplayYesYes/OptionYes/OptionYes/OptionYes/Option
Missile Approach Warning SystemYesYesYesYesYes
Towed Decoy SystemYesYes (ALE-70/80)YesYesYes
VOR NavigationYesYesYesYesYes
 
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jmaxwell_ said:
Why are the 13 India Specific Enhancements, "India specific"? Every fighter flying in 2016 either already supported it, or provided it as an option or a pod. Even if India wanted some of these integrated instead of Pod, I am puzzled by the ones in red that were standard/default in export variants. When Qatar exercises some of these options, are they called QSE?

EnhancementRafale + ISEF-16F/A-18E/FTyphoonGripen C/D
Radio Altimeter (extended)YesYesYesYesYes
Radar Warning Receiver (RWR)YesYesYesYesYes
Low Band JammerYesYes/PodYes/PodYesYes/Pod
Flight Data Recorder (extended)YesYesYesYesYes
High Altitude Engine StartYesYesYesYesYes
Radar NCTRYesYesYesYesYes
Radar DBS / SAR modesYesYesYes/PodYesYes/Pod
Radar GMTI/TYesYes/PodYes/PodYes/PodYes/Pod
IRSTYesNo (not baseline)No (not baseline)Partial (PIRATE IRST in some)Partial (option on some)
Helmet Mounted DisplayYesYes/OptionYes/OptionYes/OptionYes/Option
Missile Approach Warning SystemYesYesYesYesYes
Towed Decoy SystemYesYes (ALE-70/80)YesYesYes
VOR NavigationYesYesYesYesYes
Click to expand...



ISE requirements were framed on the basis of the MMRCA trials (2009-2012). Many of these capabilities became operationally available much later.

Many mfgrs had used testbed systems to represent actual performance at the time.

In the case of HMDS, the French AF didn't plan to integrate one until the F4 standard, afaik. The IAF likely chose the Israeli Targo II for commonality reasons.

Also, French F-3R birds had the earlier gen DDM which was replaced by DDM-NG in export versions.
 
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Speedster1 said:
ISE requirements were framed on the basis of the MMRCA trials (2009-2012). Many of these capabilities became operationally available much later.

Many mfgrs had used testbed systems to represent actual performance at the time.

In the case of HMDS, the French AF didn't plan to integrate one until the F4 standard, afaik. The IAF likely chose the Israeli Targo II for commonality reasons.

Also, French F-3R birds had the earlier gen DDM which was replaced by DDM-NG in export versions.
Click to expand...
The HMDS at least makes sense since India wanted an Israeli OEM. But the rest just seem so basic - RAM, VOR, RWR, FDR, etc. It just seems as though India paid for the development of a lot of features that should have been part of the baseline config...
 
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jmaxwell_ said:
The HMDS at least makes sense since India wanted an Israeli OEM. But the rest just seem so basic - RAM, VOR, RWR, FDR, etc. It just seems as though India paid for the development of a lot of features that should have been part of the baseline config...
Click to expand...

Spectra is an integrated EW system with built-in rwr functionality. ISE could've included upgrades to the original system architecture (Tx/Rx, software, not a bespoke RWR (like Tarang/Dhruti). Normal part of obsolescence mgmt.

Similarly, radalt is tightly integrated with onboard GPS/INS and the overall nav attack system. So indigenous alternatives (like INCOM from HAL et al) are out of the question.

The IAF may have paid to expedite dev and integration of some these systems planned for later blocks like F4.
 
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Aniruddha said:
HAL clarified that it has not received any communication that it's going to be manufacturing the Rafales in India.
Click to expand...
In one of the other proposed sales, Wasn't there talk about Dassault setting up or partnering an Indian company? I'm sure Dassault will want some of the money
jmaxwell_ said:
Why are the 13 India Specific Enhancements, "India specific"? Every fighter flying in 2016 either already supported it, or provided it as an option or a pod. Even if India wanted some of these integrated instead of Pod, I am puzzled by the ones in red that were standard/default in export variants. When Qatar exercises some of these options, are they called QSE?

EnhancementRafale + ISEF-16F/A-18E/FTyphoonGripen C/D
Radio Altimeter (extended)YesYesYesYesYes
Radar Warning Receiver (RWR)YesYesYesYesYes
Low Band JammerYesYes/PodYes/PodYesYes/Pod
Flight Data Recorder (extended)YesYesYesYesYes
High Altitude Engine StartYesYesYesYesYes
Radar NCTRYesYesYesYesYes
Radar DBS / SAR modesYesYesYes/PodYesYes/Pod
Radar GMTI/TYesYes/PodYes/PodYes/PodYes/Pod
IRSTYesNo (not baseline)No (not baseline)Partial (PIRATE IRST in some)Partial (option on some)
Helmet Mounted DisplayYesYes/OptionYes/OptionYes/OptionYes/Option
Missile Approach Warning SystemYesYesYesYesYes
Towed Decoy SystemYesYes (ALE-70/80)YesYesYes
VOR NavigationYesYesYesYesYes
Click to expand...
Because Rafale didn't have what everyone else had, India paid extra to get it
 
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Optimist said:
In one of the other proposed sales, Wasn't there talk about Dassault setting up or partnering an Indian company? I'm sure Dassault will want some of the money

Because Rafale didn't have what everyone else had, India paid extra to get it
Click to expand...
They had the choice between all these birds (EF2000, SH18, F16, Gripen, russian jets) and finally choose Rafale, twice, and nearly for a third huge order.
It is the best answer.
Rafale may be not the best in any specific mission, but very good in all.
 
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Bon Plan said:
They had the choice between all these birds (EF2000, SH18, F16, Gripen, russian jets) and finally choose Rafale, twice, and nearly for a third huge order.
It is the best answer.
Rafale may be not the best in any specific mission, but very good in all.
Click to expand...
Really? You want me to explain Indian procurement; Does India even know how it's done? I'm still trying to work out Aussie procurement
The Air chief wanted US, He said better radar and missiles/weapons, He didn't get it
 
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Bon Plan said:
better radar and weapons with a colar and leash ? Just good enough for kangaroos....
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France will betray India at the drop of a hat, like Argentina, So better than the knife in the back of the Argentinians
Google AI
During the 1982 Falklands War, France provided crucial information and support to the United Kingdom, acting as an important ally, despite previous French arms sales to Argentina. President Mitterrand implemented an arms embargo, allowed British forces access to French installations in West Africa, and provided technical details about the Exocet missiles and aircraft.
Key aspects of French aid to the UK:
Exchange of information: France provided detailed technical data on Mirage and Etendard aircraft and Exocet missiles that Argentina had previously purchased.
Training assistance: The French Navy provided Mirage and Super Etendard aircraft to help British pilots train against the same aircraft used by the Argentine Air Force.
Operational support: France supported the UK by allowing the British fleet to use the West African port facilities (Dakar).
Embargoes: The French government officially suspended all military technical assistance and sales of Exocet missiles to Argentina.
 
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Optimist said:
France will betray India at the drop of a hat, like Argentina, So better than the knife in the back of the Argentinians
Google AI
During the 1982 Falklands War, France provided crucial information and support to the United Kingdom, acting as an important ally, despite previous French arms sales to Argentina. President Mitterrand implemented an arms embargo, allowed British forces access to French installations in West Africa, and provided technical details about the Exocet missiles and aircraft.
Key aspects of French aid to the UK:
Exchange of information: France provided detailed technical data on Mirage and Etendard aircraft and Exocet missiles that Argentina had previously purchased.
Training assistance: The French Navy provided Mirage and Super Etendard aircraft to help British pilots train against the same aircraft used by the Argentine Air Force.
Operational support: France supported the UK by allowing the British fleet to use the West African port facilities (Dakar).
Embargoes: The French government officially suspended all military technical assistance and sales of Exocet missiles to Argentina.
Click to expand...
It's not good to keep rehashing the same old stories. Be careful, you'll get an ulcer.

India and France have a Special Comprehensive Strategic Partnership.
Which word don't you understand?

And who are you to make such judgments? A poor lonely boy in front of his PC?
 
Ashwin said:
Aussies should think twice before passing judgment on others' procurements.
Click to expand...
I was trying to refer to the individual understanding how it works, not the country, Procurement decissions can be hard to understand, including Australia's
See if this grammar is better "do Indian's"
Really? You want me to explain Indian procurement; Do Indian's even know how it's done? I'm still trying to work out Aussie procurement
The Air chief wanted US, He said better radar and missiles/weapons, He didn't get it
 
Optimist said:
I was trying to refer to the individual understanding how it works, not the country, Procurement decissions can be hard to understand, including Australia's
See if this grammar is better "do Indian's"
Really? You want me to explain Indian procurement; Do Indian's even know how it's done? I'm still trying to work out Aussie procurement
The Air chief wanted US, He said better radar and missiles/weapons, He didn't get it
Click to expand...
Yo Pops ! Indian procurement usually have one common strand running thru all their procurements - a lack of moolah. Most of the other problems arise out of this fundamental conundrum.

Of course having said that , this isn't the only problem plaguing procurement , there're a whole host of problem areas around every procurement which are usually subjective viz indigenous vs imports , ToT meaning know how & know why vs local assembly masquerading as ToT , corruption , armed forces fancying foreign stuff refusing to consider local options , the whole torturous procurement cycle including trials to the end of the universe & back , product specifications etc.

Hence things don't move unless the situation reaches the point of desperation & then some more.

Oz doesn't face such any such issues. Nor are you hard up for cash . It's usually the US vs other western makes for you . Fairly easy choice to make given you're so beholden to the Anglos & the Americans .

So if Oz faces problems in procurement , it's less the function of complications more a function of Aussies making a meal of it.

May the Force be with you !
 
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Harpy1 said:
If Fcas is scrapped what will France do about sixth generation platform
They can't keep flying them beyond 2060
Unmanned drones only maybe
Click to expand...
We will make our FCAS fr.
A cooperation may stay about engine, combat cloud, may be radar, ie the main part of the cost.
Optimist said:
France will betray India at the drop of a hat, like Argentina, So better than the knife in the back of the Argentinians
Google AI
During the 1982 Falklands War, France provided crucial information and support to the United Kingdom, acting as an important ally, despite previous French arms sales to Argentina. President Mitterrand implemented an arms embargo, allowed British forces access to French installations in West Africa, and provided technical details about the Exocet missiles and aircraft.
Key aspects of French aid to the UK:
Exchange of information: France provided detailed technical data on Mirage and Etendard aircraft and Exocet missiles that Argentina had previously purchased.
Training assistance: The French Navy provided Mirage and Super Etendard aircraft to help British pilots train against the same aircraft used by the Argentine Air Force.
Operational support: France supported the UK by allowing the British fleet to use the West African port facilities (Dakar).
Embargoes: The French government officially suspended all military technical assistance and sales of Exocet missiles to Argentina.
Click to expand...
France will never forget how UK helped us in 1914-1918 & 1939-1945.
It was a difficult choice, but we made the right one.

Do you imagine Israel don't have some specific datas about the Saudi Arabia F15 ???
 
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Lolwa said:
The PLAAF, USAF, JASDF, IsraeliAF and even the KAF(debateable) are all airforces with superior capabilities and training to IAF. You could say the PLAAF and RuAF are the only ones who are mediocre but they make up with overall size and bomber capability. Su-57MKI needs to be our present tip-of-the-spear. In fact AMCA needs to be expedited and we need to deal with the French and integrate the rafale-amca-scaf/fcas into one complete ecosystem.
The su-57 is a counter j-20/f-22 and until we don't develop satellite targetting we can't really do much. On top of that we need 20 AEWCS and the 2 remaining Phalcon AEWCS needs to be reactivated with assisted targetting capability needs to be brought.

As for PAF they are not a serious issue. The Pakistanis are deep down traumatized by what happened from 8-10th May. The issue is when a PLAAF, PAF vs IAF situation arises. How are we supposed to fight both. And let's be serious a 2.5 front is a realistic option.
Abhijit Iyer Mitra had done some wargame at IDSA and he had said that the 2.5 front war case only happens when the PLAAF and IAF go into combat. In a PAF vs IAF a 2.5 front situation never arises. It's when the PLAAF and IAF go against each other is when the Pakipigs make a move.
Considering we have limited long range A2G options (Brahmos and Scalp are not enough). We don't have anything like the JSOW, JASSM-XR, LRASM. It will be huge problem. Also the Chinese will cover up with its PLARF which is huge on top of that they have over a million drones in manufacturing. We don't have enough AD to simultaneously deal with both.
IAF is too obsessed with a limited war. When the Americans collapse the limited war paradigm will end.
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To each his own. For me, IAF is the absolute best airforce on the face of earth. Every other AF that has trained with our IAF know it all too well. Equipment wise, we may not be the best. But, training and courage? Hell Yeah!
 
Rajput Lion said:
To each his own. For me, IAF is the absolute best airforce on the face of earth. Every other AF that has trained with our IAF know it all too well. Equipment wise, we may not be the best. But, training and courage? Hell Yeah!
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Lol, nah the USAF so so far ahead theyre in a different league. In quite literally everything you can think of.

Courage though, yes i believe in my own countrymen and their dedication to the country
 
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lmaoxd said:
Lol, nah the USAF so so far ahead theyre in a different league. In quite literally everything you can think of.

Courage though, yes i believe in my own countrymen and their dedication to the country
Click to expand...
Everytime they do exercise with us, they get shocked with IAF's abilities. Rest, as I said, "to each his own".👍
 
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