India vs China - War Gaming Scenarios : Related News , Updates , Discussions & Analysis .

_Anonymous_ said:
Somehow I didn't receive any notification of you tagging me.

Well , do what we must in such situations. Get an electronic signature of these FAs. Check their stealth to see if they're indeed LO or VLO. Check the efficacy of our IADS & so on .
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The notion that China or Russia with decades of aircraft manufacturing(especially the latter), can't make a VLO jet is simply preposterous. Getting electronic signature of J-20 would be tough in peace time 'cause it will fly with Luneberg Lens. Only in war time, we can hope to get its real signature.
_Anonymous_ said:
Beyond thet there's little we can do.
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In the Himalayas, J-20 won't run rampant as most of other people think. Rafale, with its ability to play cat and mouse using the high mountain passes for cover, would be our biggest counter until we get our first Su-57.
 
randomradio said:
M777 was the only light gun available for mountain ops and Chinook was practically single vendor, even Apache.
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With the Singaporean Pegasus ULH blacklisted, M777 won by default. But the IAF did have the option to buy the Mi-26T (it eventually decided to overhaul the existing fleet instead of retiring them) or the Mi-28N.

The E model Apache's hot and high performance anyway turned out to be lackluster with multiple hard landings landings so far.

Stryker is a non-starter for the IA as field trials have shown beyond doubt. With the Spike-MR/ER in service, Javelin is already redundant.

All the Yudh Abhyas series exercises were meant precisely to build interoperability between the 2 armies.

And what better way to achieve true interoperability than fielding common equipment.
 
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Rajput Lion said:
The notion that China or Russia with decades of aircraft manufacturing(especially the latter), can't make a VLO jet is simply preposterous.
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Decades of aircraft mfg doesn't equal decades of stealth aircraft mfg . That distinction belongs solely to the US. No other country has been experimenting with stealth for as long as the US has & they have a lot to show for it.
Rajput Lion said:
Getting electronic signature of J-20 would be tough in peace time 'cause it will fly with Luneberg Lens. Only in war time, we can hope to get its real signature.
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Who knows ? A slip here or there can help us . Or the US may have the technology to get a fix on how LO is the J-20 ? I'm sure we're collaborating with them by getting the US on the LAC with such equipment . Otherwise what's the point of the Quad ?
Rajput Lion said:
In the Himalayas, J-20 won't run rampant as most of other people think. Rafale, with its ability to play cat and mouse using the high mountain passes for cover, would be our biggest counter until we get our first Su-57.
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Once again I draw your attention to AFBs in Yunnan & Sichuan apart from Gansu . Xinjiang & Tibet will not be the places from where we will see concentrated attacks . Please dispel yourself of any such long held notions .
 
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Speedster1 said:
With the Singaporean Pegasus ULH blacklisted, M777 won by default. But the IAF did have the option to buy the Mi-26T (it eventually decided to overhaul the existing fleet instead of retiring them) or the Mi-28N.
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Can't help with Pegasus, but Mi-26 failed to meet RFP specs.

Speedster1 said:
The E model Apache's hot and high performance anyway turned out to be lackluster with multiple hard landings landings so far.
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Not hot "and" high, but only high. And mainly from Ladakh. We can still operate it from elsewhere.

Speedster1 said:
Stryker is a non-starter for the IA as field trials have shown beyond doubt. With the Spike-MR/ER in service, Javelin is already redundant.
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The IA has asked for further development of Stryker, new engine and amphibious, so we have to see where it goes.

With the 18-ton restriction lifted, they could get new opportunities to make it better than it is. Overall, it will now have to compete with other designs.

As for Javelin, it creates a new supply chain that can network with other American-supplied assets.

Speedster1 said:
All the Yudh Abhyas series exercises were meant precisely to build interoperability between the 2 armies.
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It's all just a dog and pony show for political upmanship. The US doesn't even have access to the terrain we are going to fight in.

The US hopes on joint operations because that requires surrendering our core network and comm network to them, and that's not going to happen. So it's a one-sided push.
 
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Rajput Lion said:
@randomradio, @vstol Jockey, @_Anonymous_, @nair, @Ashwin, @Hellfire, @marich01, @Milspec, @Parthu, @Speedster1, @Lolwa, @Sathya, @babablacksheep, @Shan, @FenicromovCW, @Aniruddha, @ShiroBarks, @South block, @STEPHEN COHEN, @RationalGuy et al

Here is a very good video explaining how Chinese BDS system helped Pakistan during our Ops(@5:00 mark onwards):


@randomradio, you didn't believe BDS helping Pak during the skirmish then, when I revealed this first, do you now?


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If your claim is confirmed. Then it mean pl-15 isn't that big of a danger.
Our focus then should be on countering the pl-17
 
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Lolwa said:
If your claim is confirmed. Then it mean pl-15 isn't that big of a danger.
Our focus then should be on countering the pl-17
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That thing is huge and perhaps not maneuverable enough to hit fighters from beyong 300 or so km but it is a total menace for tankers and AWACS without which our fighters would lose a lot of their fighting potential anyways.
 
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Lolwa said:
If your claim is confirmed. Then it mean pl-15 isn't that big of a danger.
Our focus then should be on countering the pl-17
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Even USAF is worried about PL-15 and hence they went to the drawing board to have a missile that could outstick it, hence AIM-260 JATM.

Remember PAF sprayed and prayed PL-15s from as far as 200kms behind civilian air traffic(such cowards!!). If launched from within 100kms at medium altitudes, it's a danger.

Anyways, now PLAAF is moving towards highly upgraded version of PL-15 known as PL-16 which has got even better range and kinematics. Also, they are developing SFDR version of PL-15 known as PL-21. So, this game continues.

PS: IAF has agreed with your demand of R-37M for our MKI fleet. It's incoming.
 
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Rajput Lion said:
@randomradio, @vstol Jockey, @_Anonymous_, @nair, @Ashwin, @Hellfire, @marich01, @Milspec, @Parthu, @Speedster1, @Lolwa, @Sathya, @babablacksheep, @Shan, @FenicromovCW, @Aniruddha, @ShiroBarks, @South block, @STEPHEN COHEN, @RationalGuy et al

Here is a very good video explaining how Chinese BDS system helped Pakistan during our Ops(@5:00 mark onwards):


@randomradio, you didn't believe BDS helping Pak during the skirmish then, when I revealed this first, do you now?


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Beidou itself is not much of a threat, imo. Our armed forces have a host of EW systems including CUAS systems that should be more than capable of suppressing them + hand-held satnav jammers are available dime a dozen.

It is their recon sats, both mil and dual-use that we need countermeasures for.

And we have many options. ISRO has already demonstrated the building blocks of in-orbit ASAT via Spadex.

Pvt cos like Digantara have made niche capabilities like space situational awareness more accessible. I suspect they would've pitched in during Op Sindoor, as well.

Some companies are offering EW systems that can disrupt SAR satellite imaging. What's needed is a national level prog to bring all these capabilities together.
 
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randomradio said:
The IA has asked for further development of Stryker, new engine and amphibious, so we have to see where it goes.

With the 18-ton restriction lifted, they could get new opportunities to make it better than it is. Overall, it will now have to compete with other designs.
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Its not just the engine. The Stryker's suspension and drive train are also problematic. Also, switching from Russian to US armoured vehicle maintainance practices will be a huge culture shock for IA mechanized units.

The IA typically asks for some rather unusual modifications like outward facing seats, firing ports, et all, etc. All that would likely come at the cost of some armour.
 
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Rajput Lion said:
@randomradio, @vstol Jockey, @_Anonymous_, @nair, @Ashwin, @Hellfire, @marich01, @Milspec, @Parthu, @Speedster1, @Lolwa, @Sathya, @babablacksheep, @Shan, @FenicromovCW, @Aniruddha, @ShiroBarks, @South block, @STEPHEN COHEN, @RationalGuy et al

Here is a very good video explaining how Chinese BDS system helped Pakistan during our Ops(@5:00 mark onwards):


@randomradio, you didn't believe BDS helping Pak during the skirmish then, when I revealed this first, do you now?


View attachment 50593
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Why would you consider it as a backstab tho?
 
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Subgradewalker said:
Why would you consider it as a backstab tho?
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It wasn't their fight. They should have stayed out completely but they still stuck their nose. One of the biggest learnings of our Ops was that 2-front war is a reality and we just weren't fighting PAF but rather PLAAF's B-team. What China did to help their puppet wasn't shabby. Some help was expected but trying to provide live satellite feed to target our fighters or S-400 was going too far in my view. They also provided PL-15 from their own initial batches(from 2016) rather them giving them the export PL-15E version.
 
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Rajput Lion said:
It wasn't their fight. They should have stayed out completely but they still stuck their nose. One of the biggest learnings of our Ops was that 2-front war is a reality and we just weren't fighting PAF but rather PLAAF's B-team. What China did to help their puppet wasn't shabby. Some help was expected but trying to provide live satellite feed to target our fighters or S-400 was going too far in my view. They also provided PL-15 from their own initial batches(from 2016) rather them giving them the export PL-15E version.
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They even gave Pakistan nukes for no reason at all, we didn't do anything against them in the 1970s and 1980s. They just wanted us to be bogged down by their attack dog because they always saw us as "third brother" in the overall view of things who needed to be "put down".

As I have said before, Chinese and their regime of dog eaters are subhumans and must be seen as such by us. We need to grow our industrial strength and one day return the favour to those savage bat eating animals.
 
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Rajput Lion said:
It wasn't their fight. They should have stayed out completely but they still stuck their nose. One of the biggest learnings of our Ops was that 2-front war is a reality and we just weren't fighting PAF but rather PLAAF's B-team. What China did to help their puppet wasn't shabby. Some help was expected but trying to provide live satellite feed to target our fighters or S-400 was going too far in my view. They also provided PL-15 from their own initial batches(from 2016) rather them giving them the export PL-15E version.
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I have been reading about 2 front war from way before opening sindoor. The books, analysis are even older. I assume military higher ups would've started considering this even earlier.

For reminder, Galwan was very recent thing.. both the armies were in kind of a standoff. The geopolitical battle was out in open, and we had made clear that gone are the days when India will not do anything. I am pretty sure, IA wouldn't have been withheld from firing back if situation arose.. ( important point, since earlier even western front wasn't free).


In that kind of situation... That's no backstab. It was a frontal slash.. and let's not kid ourselves that they would've limited their roles if we had shown weakness.
It was precisely because of our success in destruction of initial targets inspite of their domestic PL-15 followed by their defence network dismantling, further followed by grounding their air force and hitting deep... That the Chinese limited their roles both militarily and diplomatically. Even started taking the de-escalation at LAC as crucial.
That is just to clarify the thought process that this was something out of ordinary. Not!

Why wouldn't they track our systems? Wouldn't we expect our forces to keep track of their movements even in normalcy.. let alone when their forces are on move ( in any direction).
I don't believe it was unexpected or out of blue for higher up. Sure, it happened for first time, but that's because this was our first considerable military conflict since 1999.
It's just like let's say taking a cold shower in winters... You know it's winter, water is chilly, you must have thought you would make it quick.. you are ready but still when that first waterpour hits you, you freeze. And then you carry on.

That's all. Were you caught unawares? No. It's just brain being brain.

Your conclusion, that we were caught unaware or it was unexpected would be valid if there were signs of fluster in chain of command ( system) , anything being some in a hurry etc.. but the fact that the system and plans effectively carried on should be proof enough that it was expected and personal shock didn't hinder military actions.

At last.. since when it wasn't their conflict? From srilanka, Maldives, pakistan, Bangladesh.. We have been in conflict with them since a decade now. Guns were fired? Well they weren't fired this time either.. on the border it matters. A micro cold war.
 
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RationalGuy said:
They even gave Pakistan nukes for no reason at all, we didn't do anything against them in the 1970s and 1980s. They just wanted us to be bogged down by their attack dog because they always saw us as "third brother" in the overall view of things who needed to be "put down".

As I have said before, Chinese and their regime of dog eaters are subhumans and must be seen as such by us. We need to grow our industrial strength and one day return the favour to those savage bat eating animals.
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They see us extension of Anglo-american empire. Those views haven't changed. Plus India is too big of landmass too near the Chinese where they can't have massive influence. In Russia they have decent influence but still the power differential was evident uptill the 90's. Now Russia is more of a lackey.
Also China is a Judeo-American colony doing the bidding for the deep state. Keep in mind it was the Russians that shared ICBM tech to NoKo and Iran not the Chinese.
 
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Subgradewalker said:
I have been reading about 2 front war from way before opening sindoor. The books, analysis are even older. I assume military higher ups would've started considering this even earlier.

For reminder, Galwan was very recent thing.. both the armies were in kind of a standoff. The geopolitical battle was out in open, and we had made clear that gone are the days when India will not do anything. I am pretty sure, IA wouldn't have been withheld from firing back if situation arose.. ( important point, since earlier even western front wasn't free).


In that kind of situation... That's no backstab. It was a frontal slash.. and let's not kid ourselves that they would've limited their roles if we had shown weakness.
It was precisely because of our success in destruction of initial targets inspite of their domestic PL-15 followed by their defence network dismantling, further followed by grounding their air force and hitting deep... That the Chinese limited their roles both militarily and diplomatically. Even started taking the de-escalation at LAC as crucial.
That is just to clarify the thought process that this was something out of ordinary. Not!

Why wouldn't they track our systems? Wouldn't we expect our forces to keep track of their movements even in normalcy.. let alone when their forces are on move ( in any direction).
I don't believe it was unexpected or out of blue for higher up. Sure, it happened for first time, but that's because this was our first considerable military conflict since 1999.
It's just like let's say taking a cold shower in winters... You know it's winter, water is chilly, you must have thought you would make it quick.. you are ready but still when that first waterpour hits you, you freeze. And then you carry on.

That's all. Were you caught unawares? No. It's just brain being brain.

Your conclusion, that we were caught unaware or it was unexpected would be valid if there were signs of fluster in chain of command ( system) , anything being some in a hurry etc.. but the fact that the system and plans effectively carried on should be proof enough that it was expected and personal shock didn't hinder military actions.

At last.. since when it wasn't their conflict? From srilanka, Maldives, pakistan, Bangladesh.. We have been in conflict with them since a decade now. Guns were fired? Well they weren't fired this time either.. on the border it matters. A micro cold war.
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Backstab or frontstab, that wasn't the point. I revealed these stuff on our forum before it was out anywhere is;)

Anyways, should we return the favour to them when they attack Taiwan! What say?
 
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Lolwa said:
Also China is a Judeo-American colony doing the bidding for the deep state.
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China is as Communist as it gets. The Americans wanted to engineer a shift to democracy. They wanted a hedge against SU. They would've also liked to play Russia and China against each other.

Perhaps a social revolution was not practical post the Tiananmen Square incident. So trade and commerce became the preferred tool.

In the 90s, Bill Clinton et all were all taken in by Chinese guile. Unfortunately for the Americans, they ended up creating a peer rival feeding off their own tech and economy.
 
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Rajput Lion said:
@randomradio, @vstol Jockey, @_Anonymous_, @nair, @Ashwin, @Hellfire, @marich01, @Milspec, @Parthu, @Speedster1, @Lolwa, @Sathya, @babablacksheep, @Shan, @FenicromovCW, @Aniruddha, @ShiroBarks, @South block, @STEPHEN COHEN, @RationalGuy et al

Here is a very good video explaining how Chinese BDS system helped Pakistan during our Ops(@5:00 mark onwards):


@randomradio, you didn't believe BDS helping Pak during the skirmish then, when I revealed this first, do you now?


View attachment 50593
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There's nothing in it that says Beidou performs AMTI, which was your actual claim. It was already well known that Pak has access to military grade signals from Beidou.

Pakistan armed forces have been availing this opportunity since 2014 soon after the visit of Premier Li Keqiang in 2013.

The Chinese have other constellations for imaging, like the Jilin, which is normal.
 
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