Sukhoi Su-30MKI

[randomradio]

India Begins Deep Indigenization Push for AL-31FP Engines Powering Su-30MKI Fleet - AlphaDefense.in

India has started a major effort to increase the indigenous content of the Russian-origin AL-31FP turbofan engines that power the…

alphadefense.in

AL 31 FP won't be changed i think .

Yep, very likely.

 

[randomradio]

Item 177S is being seriously considered by IAF.

It doesn't exist. The Russians are expecting India to foot the bill for its development while themselves going for the 117S.

IAF is unlikely to go for a third engine program alongside Kaveri and AMCA engine. Upgrading the AL-31FP with your Midhani parts is the way to go.

AL-31FP at 80% indigenization is a far better option than 177S at 51%. The performance improvement with 177S is not worth the cost of becoming dependent on the Russians again. This upgrade may very well allow the MLUs to retire with the same engine with a service life boost for cold parts again.

 

[Rajput Lion]

It doesn't exist. The Russians are expecting India to foot the bill for its development while themselves going for the 117S.

IAF is unlikely to go for a third engine program alongside Kaveri and AMCA engine. Upgrading the AL-31FP with your Midhani parts is the way to go.

AL-31FP at 80% indigenization is a far better option than 177S at 51%. The performance improvement with 177S is not worth the cost of becoming dependent on the Russians again. This upgrade may very well allow the MLUs to retire with the same engine with a service life boost for cold parts again.

177S is the Universal Flanker Engine. They plan to replace entire AL-31F series engine equipped Flankers with it. They are going ahead with or without us just like they moved ahead with Su-57.

IAF is indeed seriously contemplating 177S.

 

[Tatvamasi]

IAF is indeed seriously contemplating 177S.

It feels like you are telling this to yourself.

 

[GASOLINE_ON_FIRE]

https://twitter.com/x/status/2059560342154596672

View attachment 51856

Whenever I see this shreedhar singh's post on this website, I am automatically reminded of my interaction with him on twitter during the may 2025 skirmish. He posted a video from Israel labeling it as from India. I replied it to him that the video was israeli, he denied it. Then in 2nd reply I posted the original source of that video (which was atleast a year old). Then, instead of deleting that post, this genius proceeded to hide both my replies to save himself from embarrassment.

This is the level of these mil-tech influencers on social media who ironically keep making fun of legacy news media for being ignorant.

 

[GASOLINE_ON_FIRE]

It feels like you are telling this to yourself.

 

[randomradio]

177S is the Universal Flanker Engine. They plan to replace entire AL-31F series engine equipped Flankers with it. They are going ahead with or without us just like they moved ahead with Su-57.

IAF is indeed seriously contemplating 177S.

There are no reports of Russia planning to use 177S for their Flankers, they have clearly mentioned it's for export Flankers 'cause it's a drop fit.

Russian Su-35 and 30SMs will continue using 117S 'cause their entire logistics and industrial chain is tied to it and 177S doesn't offer anything new worth all that additional cost. 117S comes with a 4000 hour life and they should be able to extend that by another 2000 hours easily. So it meets the need for the full life of these airframes.

In case they need to reengine the Flankers, they will seek commonality with Su-57, so they will get the Izd 30 upgrade.

You can bet they will make a derated Flanker model for Izd 30. And then you will probably claim this is the engine MKI will get too.

 

[randomradio]

View attachment 51909

Ah, imagine the possibilities if you could spend even half the time you spent making this on education.

 

[Rajput Lion]

There are no reports of Russia planning to use 177S for their Flankers, they have clearly mentioned it's for export Flankers 'cause it's a drop fit.

Russian Su-35 and 30SMs will continue using 117S 'cause their entire logistics and industrial chain is tied to it and 177S doesn't offer anything new worth all that additional cost. 117S comes with a 4000 hour life and they should be able to extend that by another 2000 hours easily. So it meets the need for the full life of these airframes.

In case they need to reengine the Flankers, they will seek commonality with Su-57, so they will get the Izd 30 upgrade.

You can bet they will make a derated Flanker model for Izd 30. And then you will probably claim this is the engine MKI will get too.

177S is the amalgamation of AL-51F1 tech onto AL-41F-1S in AL-31F (intake) size . They will equip all their Su-30SMs, Su-34s and other Su-27s/30s with Item 177S. That's why it is called "Universal Flanker Engine". 177S produces same dry/wet thrust with better engine life(6000hrs) and better SFC(in all flight regimes) v/s 117S with even a smaller 905mm AL-31F like intake vs 932mm intake of AL-41F-1S. That is indeed because of 5th gen tech & metallurgy. The idea that this engine is only for export is not correct.

Su-35SM will get the full blown Item 177 as it shares the same intake nostriles to fit that engine's 934mm intake diameter. Future variants of Su-57 and both Su-35 will share this same engine.

PS: Russians plan to turn this 5th gen 177/177S engine into 5+ or even 6- gen engine by adding a third stream. In fact, they have offered even that path to India. We need to have patience as plenty is happening behind the scene between India and Russia regarding entire road-map for acquiring Su-57s(single or dual-seat customised variant).

 

[Rajput Lion]

In the recent RFP by MoD regarding anti-jamming navigational system, one very interesting detail came out:

"The system, according to the RFP, is required to operate across the full flight envelope of the Su-30MKI, functioning at altitudes up to 21 km, speeds up to Mach 1.5 and accelerations ranging from -2g to 9g."

Source: SU-30MKI: India floats RFP to upgrade 258 Su-30MKI fighters with anti-jamming navigation system | - The Times of India


So, while the brochure talks about 57k feet service ceiling, MKIs do operate at close to 70k feet and speeds of upto 1.5mach at that height. Just imagine an Astra 2 launch at that height and speed

 

[randomradio]

177S is the amalgamation of AL-51F1 tech onto AL-41F-1S in AL-31F (intake) size . They will equip all their Su-30SMs, Su-34s and other Su-27s/30s with Item 177S. That's why it is called "Universal Flanker Engine". 177S produces same dry/wet thrust with better engine life(6000hrs) and better SFC(in all flight regimes) v/s 117S with even a smaller 905mm AL-31F like intake vs 932mm intake of AL-41F-1S. That is indeed because of 5th gen tech & metallurgy. The idea that this engine is only for export is not correct.

Su-35SM will get the full blown Item 177 as it shares the same intake nostriles to fit that engine's 934mm intake diameter. Future variants of Su-57 and both Su-35 will share this same engine.

PS: Russians plan to turn this 5th gen 177/177S engine into 5+ or even 6- gen engine by adding a third stream. In fact, they have offered even that path to India. We need to have patience as plenty is happening behind the scene between India and Russia regarding entire road-map for acquiring Su-57s(single or dual-seat customised variant).

The Izd 30 still remains the engine of choice for the Su-57. The Russians have claimed that the 177 is only a temporary measure.

They have said nothing about re-engining their Flankers with 177S. They have only proposed a 177S dropfit option for existing AL-31F users who are stuck with 1500 and 2000 hour engines.

The reason is really simple. Izd 30 belongs to Saturn, 177/177S belong to Salyut. Salyut's engine will very likely be used on Su-34 MLUs and modernizations, an upgrade from Salyut's older AL-31FM1. The IAF is unlikely to change companies here. The Chinese exclusively use Salyut's engines, alongside other non-MKI Flanker operators like Vietnam. So the new engine is a realistic option for them, not India. That's why the Russians are also unlikely to change engine companies for Su-30SM and Su-35, even for future modernizations.

I don't believe the Russians will switch away from 117S. And the upcoming AL-31FP upgrade signals the IAF's disinterest in switching engines as well. MKI's weight gains will be compensated with some extra thrust so the red lines remain the same as before so they don't have to change their training modules and retrain pilots just to fit a new engine with some extra thrust.

 

[Rajput Lion]

The Izd 30 still remains the engine of choice for the Su-57. The Russians have claimed that the 177 is only a temporary measure.

They have said nothing about re-engining their Flankers with 177S. They have only proposed a 177S dropfit option for existing AL-31F users who are stuck with 1500 and 2000 hour engines.

The reason is really simple. Izd 30 belongs to Saturn, 177/177S belong to Salyut. Salyut's engine will very likely be used on Su-34 MLUs and modernizations, an upgrade from Salyut's older AL-31FM1. The IAF is unlikely to change companies here. The Chinese exclusively use Salyut's engines, alongside other non-MKI Flanker operators like Vietnam. So the new engine is a realistic option for them, not India. That's why the Russians are also unlikely to change engine companies for Su-30SM and Su-35, even for future modernizations.

I don't believe the Russians will switch away from 117S. And the upcoming AL-31FP upgrade signals the IAF's disinterest in switching engines as well. MKI's weight gains will be compensated with some extra thrust so the red lines remain the same as before so they don't have to change their training modules and retrain pilots just to fit a new engine with some extra thrust.

I agree that Russians may be trying to play deception game with us trying to make us foot the bill of 177 series engines while retaining the cream de la cream and their crown-jewel AL-51F1 specifically for their domestic use.

So, as I said, we need to have patience to find out what configuration we exactly choose of our customised Su-57.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

In the recent RFP by MoD regarding anti-jamming navigational system, one very interesting detail came out:

"The system, according to the RFP, is required to operate across the full flight envelope of the Su-30MKI, functioning at altitudes up to 21 km, speeds up to Mach 1.5 and accelerations ranging from -2g to 9g."

Source: SU-30MKI: India floats RFP to upgrade 258 Su-30MKI fighters with anti-jamming navigation system | - The Times of India


So, while the brochure talks about 57k feet service ceiling, MKIs do operate at close to 70k feet and speeds of upto 1.5mach at that height. Just imagine an Astra 2 launch at that height and speed

~20 km altitude is achieved in certain extreme maneuvers only. sustained flight is below 60k feet only. i am not an expert but launching a bvr at 1.2 mach, pulling more than 4-5Gs is not gonna be optimum.

 

[Rajput Lion]

~20 km altitude is achieved in certain extreme maneuvers only.

It is done through a maneuver caller "zoom-climb".

sustained flight is below 60k feet only. i am not an expert but launching a bvr at 1.2 mach, pulling more than 4-5Gs is not gonna be optimum.

If I would have revealed that MKI climbs to 20-21kms altitude at mach 1.5 to launch Astra2/3, most people here would have called me a story-teller since MKI's brochure service ceiling is around 57k feet. But since this is an official MoD RFP, there is no if or but regarding MKI's flight envelope. MKI will use its thrust and aerodynamics to hit 1.5M at 20+ kms altitude to lob Astra1/2/3 or R-37M towards incoming bogies, invariably increasing the missiles range by 40-50kms and reducing "time-to-target", thanks to low-drag & high-speed launch conditions.

 

[randomradio]

In the recent RFP by MoD regarding anti-jamming navigational system, one very interesting detail came out:

"The system, according to the RFP, is required to operate across the full flight envelope of the Su-30MKI, functioning at altitudes up to 21 km, speeds up to Mach 1.5 and accelerations ranging from -2g to 9g."

Source: SU-30MKI: India floats RFP to upgrade 258 Su-30MKI fighters with anti-jamming navigation system | - The Times of India


So, while the brochure talks about 57k feet service ceiling, MKIs do operate at close to 70k feet and speeds of upto 1.5mach at that height. Just imagine an Astra 2 launch at that height and speed

It's normal for when fighters have to zoom climb and fire missiles. Pretty much all 4th gen TE fighters can do this. I believe the Mig-29 was a champion at this until surpassed by later jets.

 

[randomradio]

I agree that Russians may be trying to play deception game with us trying to make us foot the bill of 177 series engines while retaining the cream de la cream and their crown-jewel AL-51F1 specifically for their domestic use.

So, as I said, we need to have patience to find out what configuration we exactly choose of our customised Su-57.

They will try to make us foot the bill for a derated Izd 30 too.

 

[Rajput Lion]

They will try to make us foot the bill for a derated Izd 30 too.

It finally depends upon IAF. They will get from Russia whatever they want. Russians are desperate and all bets are off.

It's normal for when fighters have to zoom climb and fire missiles. Pretty much all 4th gen TE fighters can do this. I believe the Mig-29 was a champion at this until surpassed by later jets.

Read the RPF. They are talking about full flight-envelope of MKI including 21kms altitude at mach 1.5. That is of a level flight, not just a zoom climb manoeuvre. MKI, thanks to TVC, can also control its manoeuvres and not just fly in a straight line.

 

[randomradio]

It finally depends upon IAF. They will get from Russia whatever they want. Russians are desperate and all bets are off.

Read the RPF. They are talking about full flight-envelope of MKI including 21kms altitude at mach 1.5. That is of a level flight, not just a zoom climb manoeuvre. MKI, thanks to TVC, can also control its manoeuvres and not just fly in a straight line.

That's normal BVR launch speed combined with zoom climb.

Jet climbs, stays in afterburner while accelerating, and then launches missiles at mach 1.5. The human pilot is the main limitation, so the jet has to quickly drop back to 9-12 km for the pilot to breathe normally again.

 

[Rajput Lion]

That's normal BVR launch speed combined with zoom climb.

Jet climbs, stays in afterburner while accelerating, and then launches missiles at mach 1.5. The human pilot is the main limitation, so the jet has to quickly drop back to 9-12 km for the pilot to breathe normally again.

True, but as the official RFP explicitly stated that the new navigational system "must" work with MKI's full flight envelope of 21kms and 1.5mach, it simply means that MKI, thanks to its raw thrust and superlative aerodynamics can sustain a level-flight at that altitude, which simply is astounding. 21kms is Mig-31 territory, IMO.

R-37M, if launched by MKI at 21kms, Mach 1.5, will reach its full range of 400kms and then some expanding our A2/AD bubble substantially looking at MKI's launch vectors and kinematics.

 

[Lolwa]

True, but as the official RFP explicitly stated that the new navigational system "must" work with MKI's full flight envelope of 21kms and 1.5mach, it simply means that MKI, thanks to its raw thrust and superlative aerodynamics can sustain a level-flight at that altitude, which simply is astounding. 21kms is Mig-31 territory, IMO.

R-37M, if launched by MKI at 21kms, Mach 1.5, will reach its full range of 400kms and then some expanding our A2/AD bubble substantially looking at MKI's launch vectors and kinematics.

Altitude advantage also improves lo aircraft deduction. There's a reason mig 31 continues to remain an extremely potent against lo stealth aircraft and the r-37 is modernisation of the r-33 used on the mig-31.