PAK-FA / Sukhoi Su-57 - Updates and Discussions

[screambowl]

Figure out the math of doing this, you will see how unrealistic it is.

How is this unrealistic? 12 Su57 in fly off condition by 2030 what is wrong with that?

Both countries are still at the start of the 6th gen cycle, so it's fine. Plus we are importing from already accomplished players.

Point is they have built the infrastructure for that, here HAL is stuck with old school production technologies. The skill set is missing as well to work on different aircrafts. There is a capacity limit.

FOC normally takes 3-5 years. F-35 is already at 10 years and counting.

MKI took 5 years. LCA Mk1 and Rafale took 3 years.

F35 is already operational. The FOC in western countries come after being tested in real time environment against an inferior enemy. Let us not even compare their test models with IAF.

For decades IAF was the testbed for Russian and then French aircrafts. More over every upgrade needs an FOC, so everytime you add a new weapon or sensor it will be tested and FOC to fly with that weapon or equipment on board will come in years.

You all know this don't you?

Like I said, we won't get MKIzed Su-57 with FOC anytime before 2040. It takes 7 years to get to IOC and service entry with 4 jets and then another 3 years minimum to get to FOC. That's 10 years.

I have explained the FOC scam already. That depends on GOI how early they give business to foreign partners.

And MKIzed version will only come when there is an infrastructure to sustain the production. You don't need MKIzed version before 2035 either. You just need a potent stealth aircraft to buy the time to develop AMCA and MKIzed version of SU57.

AMCA is not coming either before 2045 because you do not have any engine, I am repeatedly saying it, SU57 will come early. And there is no progress so far when it comes to engine technology at GTRE. The institution is confused because they do not have test facilities and raw material.

DRDO and HAL they have learn so much from the foreign engine but they are not able to produce because accurate production technology is missing.

And non-MKIzed Su-57 is useless. And serious induction is only possible in parallel to AMCA, so it's even more pointless at this point. Su-57 should have finished development in 2020, and with Izd 30

Well SU57 MKIzed or non MKIzed is far better than any aircraft currently in IAF inventory with a huge margin, that is well known. This is exactly what GOI did, got the Rafales first and now working on indiginization of it. And any Su57 is better than those Chinese ones.


Upgradation from Izd117 to Izd 30 is being done. Both are intented for stealth aircrafts.

 

[randomradio]

How is this unrealistic? 12 Su57 in fly off condition by 2030 what is wrong with that?

That number is for a very tiny nation like Qatar, Singapore, or Bahrain. With 12 jets, you have 2 for training, 2 for tactics development, and 8 for operational use. 3 jets will never be available due to maintenance. So you just have 4 operational jets left with 1 in reserve. So that's 1 sortie a day for 2 jets. In case of emergency you can send the remaining 2 jets up. That's all. It means your local presence is just 2 hours out of 24 hours.

Any orders we place will have to be at least 40-45 jets or local production with 6-9 squadrons.

Point is they have built the infrastructure for that, here HAL is stuck with old school production technologies. The skill set is missing as well to work on different aircrafts. There is a capacity limit.

HAL's fighter production days are coming to an end. LCA is likely to be the last IAF fighter jet they will build.

F35 is already operational. The FOC in western countries come after being tested in real time environment against an inferior enemy. Let us not even compare their test models with IAF.

For decades IAF was the testbed for Russian and then French aircrafts. More over every upgrade needs an FOC, so everytime you add a new weapon or sensor it will be tested and FOC to fly with that weapon or equipment on board will come in years.

You all know this don't you?

F-35s are not combat capable yet.

DOT&E Says No Combat-Capable TR-3-Configured F-35s Were Delivered in FY2025

The latest Director, Operational Test & Evaluation report says no combat-capable F-35 TR-3 aircraft have been delivered to the U.S. military until

theaviationist.com

They are currently using unupgraded jets with TR-2 hardware for combat and are hoping to make the advanced version combat capable with basic capabilities by 2028. Some Block 4 capabilities are expected by 2029-30 and full capabilities only by 2033 with an upgraded engine.

The new jets don't even come with radars.

Ballast Instead of Radar: Lockheed Martin Delivers F-35 Without AN/APG-85 Due to Delays

Due to delays in developing the new AN/APG-85 radar, the United States will receive F-35 aircraft for its air component without operational radars starting in June 2025. Instead, ballast is […]

militarnyi.com

I have explained the FOC scam already. That depends on GOI how early they give business to foreign partners.

And MKIzed version will only come when there is an infrastructure to sustain the production. You don't need MKIzed version before 2035 either. You just need a potent stealth aircraft to buy the time to develop AMCA and MKIzed version of SU57.

AMCA is not coming either before 2045 because you do not have any engine, I am repeatedly saying it, SU57 will come early. And there is no progress so far when it comes to engine technology at GTRE. The institution is confused because they do not have test facilities and raw material.

DRDO and HAL they have learn so much from the foreign engine but they are not able to produce because accurate production technology is missing.

Even Su-57 has not achieved FOC in Russia. And yes, if AMCA fails we will have to import something. But I don't think it will get delayed to that extent 'cause the people supplying engine tech to us don't want us to fund the Russian aerospace industry. If they fail to supply the engines, then we will be forced to rely on Russian imports. But we have time to make that decision, around 2030-35.

Both F414 and AMCA engine deals are expected this year. By 2030, one will be in full scale production, the other will be under flight testing. So we will know the status of both programs pretty quickly. That gives enough time for us to make a Su-57 decision, ie, after 2030. AMCA's engine is based on already-developed French tech too.

There was risk of AMCA failing half a decade ago, but that risk is pretty much gone today.

Well SU57 MKIzed or non MKIzed is far better than any aircraft currently in IAF inventory with a huge margin, that is well known. This is exactly what GOI did, got the Rafales first and now working on indiginization of it. And any Su57 is better than those Chinese ones.

Su-57 is still in IOC stage in Russia, and with the wrong engine, the 177. This engine is underpowered for Indian conditions where thrust drops by 15%. Izd 30 is necessary so it can give us somewhat lesser thrust than 177 due to thrust lapse and more stealth with better thermal management. Do people not realize that if we choose an engine for the Su-57 today, we will be stuck with it for the life of the aircraft, just like AL-31FP on MKI even though so many better engines have come up since?

177 barely makes it as a 5th gen engine. But we need the higher-end 5th gen capabilities of Izd 30 to manage the jet for 50 years.

J-20 has achieved maturity as of this year with the new 18.5T engine. So Chengdu is now ramping up production. It's unclear when Su-57 will match the J-20 today.

Pretty much all new jets coming up are better than every aircraft in our inventory, so there's nothing special about that, it's just the natural course of events.

Upgradation from Izd117 to Izd 30 is being done. Both are intented for stealth aircrafts.

Sure, so let's see once Izd 30 becomes operational. IAF is not gonna buy immature tech from Russia. We did that twice and paid for it.

Today, F-35 doesn't have radar or combat capability, Su-57 is immature and doesn't have the right engine. It will take until 2030 for both.

 

[screambowl]

That number is for a very tiny nation like Qatar, Singapore, or Bahrain.

Because they do not have adequate air defence and army.

With 12 jets, you have 2 for training, 2 for tactics development, and 8 for operational use.

You don't need more than 8 as of now, and as per threat assessment. Even if you are sending 4 turn wise it is more than sufficient. It is sufficient to buy the time and build enormous pressure on enemy airforce. May be after 15 years you would require two SQNs.

Atleast try to operate 12 first, this alone will require enough budget just to build their specialized climate controlled shelter.

Any orders we place will have to be at least 40-45 jets or local production with 6-9 squadrons.

Local production will require time, you need a consortium like Brahmos Aerospace and other sort of private partnership model , for that infrastructure needs to be there keeping mind the 6th gen stealth fighter you know this already and this is exactly what GOI is doing.

Because if you are going to produce stealth aircraft then simultaneously 6th gen technologies come into play as well by 2040, a lot of 5th gen technologies like IEEE standards on avionics , MIL-STD-810D/F on cockpit and mission computers for extreme environments will be decapciated for 5th gen applications and a lot of new technologies with new MIL-STD will emerge to perform same task. GOI won't restrict the development just to 5th gen until then. Government in sane condition will either embed 5.5th gen tech onboard AMCA and Su57 MKI.

F-35s are not combat capable yet.

They are being sent to combat already to get the FOC and test the new upgrades. And coming to FOC, during Kargil war when did GOI wait for FOC to come when they fused Israeli LGBs with Mirage2K? You know this very well. The MIL-STD certification happened later.

Even Su-57 has not achieved FOC in Russia. And yes, if AMCA fails we will have to import something. But I don't think it will get delayed to that extent 'cause the people supplying engine tech to us don't want us to fund the Russian aerospace industry. If they fail to supply the engines, then we will be forced to rely on Russian imports. But we have time to make that decision, around 2030-35.

Both F414 and AMCA engine deals are expected this year. By 2030, one will be in full scale production, the other will be under flight testing. So we will know the status of both programs pretty quickly. That gives enough time for us to make a Su-57 decision, ie, after 2030. AMCA's engine is based on already-developed French tech too.

There was risk of AMCA failing half a decade ago, but that risk is pretty much gone today.

Su57 is being tested with a lot of new systems because there won't be just one variant of it like Su57M, Su57D, there will be single seater, dual seater, one with Idz 30 other with Idz 117 etc etc . The base will be there but then export models will have it's own specifications. Every model requires FOC. They are not testing just one aircraft.

Looking at the the LCAmk1 well every forum member knows what is going to happen with AMCA flying on F414 lol. This is why AMCA will not come before 2045. Please that's a most optimistic time line.

Even if the French and Indian consortium readies a powerplant well it is still 1.5 decades away. You can develop it, but you need something to secure the skies, and these 12 Su57 will be more than sufficient until then.

177 barely makes it as a 5th gen engine. But we need the higher-end 5th gen capabilities of Izd 30 to manage the jet for 50 years.

This is why F414 is also not a stealth compatible engine. You need better cooling technology for exhaust and material quoating so that no spectrum is reflected from the blades, . Or else Americans would have used F414 for their stealth program. Infact B2 engine is state of art technology, designed for stealth with scrutinized engineering tolerances for maintenance and during operations.

Izd30 is atleast functioning.

Sure, so let's see once Izd 30 becomes operational. IAF is not gonna buy immature tech from Russia. We did that twice and paid for it.

Well it is debatable, if you buy a half cooked tech for lower price MKIze it and secure all source code. Remember they have a running engine.

 

[randomradio]

Because they do not have adequate air defence and army.

The purpose of a small fleet is only to challenge simple intruders, not to fight a war.

Local production will require time, you need a consortium like Brahmos Aerospace and other sort of private partnership model , for that infrastructure needs to be there keeping mind the 6th gen stealth fighter you know this already and this is exactly what GOI is doing.

Because if you are going to produce stealth aircraft then simultaneously 6th gen technologies come into play as well by 2040, a lot of 5th gen technologies like IEEE standards on avionics , MIL-STD-810D/F on cockpit and mission computers for extreme environments will be decapciated for 5th gen applications and a lot of new technologies with new MIL-STD will emerge to perform same task. GOI won't restrict the development just to 5th gen until then. Government in sane condition will either embed 5.5th gen tech onboard AMCA and Su57 MKI.

Those are the only two choices. Minimum 2 squadrons imported or 6-9 squadrons with local production.

They are being sent to combat already to get the FOC and test the new upgrades. And coming to FOC, during Kargil war when did GOI wait for FOC to come when they fused Israeli LGBs with Mirage2K? You know this very well. The MIL-STD certification happened later.

Mirage 2000 received FOC more than a decade before Kargil.

Su57 is being tested with a lot of new systems because there won't be just one variant of it like Su57M, Su57D, there will be single seater, dual seater, one with Idz 30 other with Idz 117 etc etc . The base will be there but then export models will have it's own specifications. Every model requires FOC. They are not testing just one aircraft.

Yes. And FOC is still some years away for Su-57M and many more years away for Su-57D. I estimate 2030 as the bare minimum for Su-57M and Su-57D will take even longer.

Su-57M is the base serial-production model.

Even after FOC, it will still take 2-3 years for the base model to fully mature as and when software releases come out unlocking new capabilities alongside hardware upgrades.

Looking at the the LCAmk1 well every forum member knows what is going to happen with AMCA flying on F414 lol. This is why AMCA will not come before 2045. Please that's a most optimistic time line.

LCA faced entirely different issues compared to AMCA.

AMCA can be delayed, that's a separate issue. As I said, when we are sure AMCA's induction will be delayed, we can import. Until then IAF is all-in on AMCA.

This is why F414 is also not a stealth compatible engine. You need better cooling technology for exhaust and material quoating so that no spectrum is reflected from the blades, . Or else Americans would have used F414 for their stealth program. Infact B2 engine is state of art technology, designed for stealth with scrutinized engineering tolerances for maintenance and during operations.

Izd30 is atleast functioning.

Izd 30 isn't ready. They have introduced another interim upgrade of the 117 called 177. Su-57M now comes with 177 for serial production. This engine is fine for Russia, but insufficient for India.

The Russians initially claimed they will begin production of Izd 30 only in 2027. We don't yet know if that is still the plan.

Remember they have a running engine.

No, they don't.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Because they do not have adequate air defence and army.


You don't need more than 8 as of now, and as per threat assessment. Even if you are sending 4 turn wise it is more than sufficient. It is sufficient to buy the time and build enormous pressure on enemy airforce. May be after 15 years you would require two SQNs.

Atleast try to operate 12 first, this alone will require enough budget just to build their specialized climate controlled shelter.



Local production will require time, you need a consortium like Brahmos Aerospace and other sort of private partnership model , for that infrastructure needs to be there keeping mind the 6th gen stealth fighter you know this already and this is exactly what GOI is doing.

Because if you are going to produce stealth aircraft then simultaneously 6th gen technologies come into play as well by 2040, a lot of 5th gen technologies like IEEE standards on avionics , MIL-STD-810D/F on cockpit and mission computers for extreme environments will be decapciated for 5th gen applications and a lot of new technologies with new MIL-STD will emerge to perform same task. GOI won't restrict the development just to 5th gen until then. Government in sane condition will either embed 5.5th gen tech onboard AMCA and Su57 MKI.



They are being sent to combat already to get the FOC and test the new upgrades. And coming to FOC, during Kargil war when did GOI wait for FOC to come when they fused Israeli LGBs with Mirage2K? You know this very well. The MIL-STD certification happened later.




Su57 is being tested with a lot of new systems because there won't be just one variant of it like Su57M, Su57D, there will be single seater, dual seater, one with Idz 30 other with Idz 117 etc etc . The base will be there but then export models will have it's own specifications. Every model requires FOC. They are not testing just one aircraft.

Looking at the the LCAmk1 well every forum member knows what is going to happen with AMCA flying on F414 lol. This is why AMCA will not come before 2045. Please that's a most optimistic time line.

Even if the French and Indian consortium readies a powerplant well it is still 1.5 decades away. You can develop it, but you need something to secure the skies, and these 12 Su57 will be more than sufficient until then.



This is why F414 is also not a stealth compatible engine. You need better cooling technology for exhaust and material quoating so that no spectrum is reflected from the blades, . Or else Americans would have used F414 for their stealth program. Infact B2 engine is state of art technology, designed for stealth with scrutinized engineering tolerances for maintenance and during operations.

Izd30 is atleast functioning.


Well it is debatable, if you buy a half cooked tech for lower price MKIze it and secure all source code. Remember they have a running engine.

Regarding Su-57, there are multiple offers made by the Russians but which direction we will choose depends solely on IAF. This or that way, Su-57/60 will soon become part of IAF because it is our only hope of countering J-20/35/36/50 et al.

 

[screambowl]

The purpose of a small fleet is only to challenge simple intruders, not to fight a war.

Just 2 stealth birds in a package will make a lot of difference. At least in South Asian region.

Those are the only two choices. Minimum 2 squadrons imported or 6-9 squadrons with local production.

Then IAF must buy 2 SQN imported fly off condition as a stop gap, because you have to any how, after all we saw the timeline how AMCA will unfold.

IOC is the word man, not FOC. When the IOC itself is 1.5 decades away then it is a very grim situation.

5 prototypes in 5 years, MAYBE if the engines are there. lol. FOC will take 20 years for full integration with the military infrastructure throughout.

Mirage 2000 received FOC more than a decade before Kargil.

IOC after LGB and targeting pod integration came within hours during op safed sagar. FOC for this particular upgrade took it's time.

Yes. And FOC is still some years away for Su-57M and many more years away for Su-57D. I estimate 2030 as the bare minimum for Su-57M and Su-57D will take even longer.

Why are you putting more leverage on FOC, what you first need is IOC. FOC has it's own parameters and everytime there is a new certification of equipment, you need a new FOC, until the production line is running. They have the IOC now for deployment.

Izd 30 isn't ready. They have introduced another interim upgrade of the 117 called 177. Su-57M now comes with 177 for serial production. This engine is fine for Russia, but insufficient for India.

Izd30 is better than 177. Izd 30 got the IOC in 2024 as well, that means deployable in active service, though it was tested in 2022 in active war zone on Su57. Two years of real time testing in Ukraine and then they got the IOC.

 

[randomradio]

Just 2 stealth birds in a package will make a lot of difference. At least in South Asian region.

Against 500-1000?

Then IAF must buy 2 SQN imported fly off condition as a stop gap, because you have to any how, after all we saw the timeline how AMCA will unfold.

IOC is the word man, not FOC. When the IOC itself is 1.5 decades away then it is a very grim situation.

5 prototypes in 5 years, MAYBE if the engines are there. lol. FOC will take 20 years for full integration with the military infrastructure throughout.

It takes time to design the MKIzation configuration and actually get it done. The overall time required is 6-7 years after the jet is already FOC'd 'cause the FOC'd jet can enter production before the MKIzed configuration is ready. If the jet is still in development like the Su-57 is today, then we will have to wait for FOC to begin the MKIzation process.

FGFA with MKIzation is 8 years for IOC. Already FOC'd Su-57 with MKIzation will take 6-7 years for IOC. Only direct import with Russian avionics will take 3 years, but if you combine that with FOC requirements, then that's 2030, then 2031 order and 2034 deliveries. The fleet of 40 jets will be operational only around 2036.

AMCA is already in an advanced phase of development. Development is expected to finish in another 7-8 years, so 2034-35, before we can get the Su-57.

IOC after LGB and targeting pod integration came within hours during op safed sagar. FOC for this particular upgrade took it's time.

That's not IOC or FOC.

Izd30 is better than 177. Izd 30 got the IOC in 2024 as well, that means deployable in active service, though it was tested in 2022 in active war zone on Su57. Two years of real time testing in Ukraine and then they got the IOC.

The Russians have chosen to begin serial production with 177. Izd 30 has not yet achieved IOC.

Russia’s Su-57 Flies with New Izdeliye 177 ‘Gen. 5’ Engine

The development of the Izdeliye 177 appears to be driven by the need to upgrade the earlier Su-57 production models and offer a new powerplant to

theaviationist.com

 

[Rajput Lion]

Just 2 stealth birds in a package will make a lot of difference. At least in South Asian region.



Then IAF must buy 2 SQN imported fly off condition as a stop gap, because you have to any how, after all we saw the timeline how AMCA will unfold.

IOC is the word man, not FOC. When the IOC itself is 1.5 decades away then it is a very grim situation.

5 prototypes in 5 years, MAYBE if the engines are there. lol. FOC will take 20 years for full integration with the military infrastructure throughout.



IOC after LGB and targeting pod integration came within hours during op safed sagar. FOC for this particular upgrade took it's time.



Why are you putting more leverage on FOC, what you first need is IOC. FOC has it's own parameters and everytime there is a new certification of equipment, you need a new FOC, until the production line is running. They have the IOC now for deployment.




Izd30 is better than 177. Izd 30 got the IOC in 2024 as well, that means deployable in active service, though it was tested in 2022 in active war zone on Su57. Two years of real time testing in Ukraine and then they got the IOC.

Item 177 gets Item 30 like dry power(108KN each) and almost similar wet thrust (158KN vs 162 KN) v/s Type 30. So the difference isnt day and night. Russians plan to equip Item 177 with a third stream to make it an ACE.

Let's see whether we accept 177/S as common engines for our Su-57s & Su-30 UPGs or want Item 30 at any cost.

 

[screambowl]

Item 177 gets Item 30 like dry power(108KN each) and almost similar wet thrust (158KN vs 162 KN) v/s Type 30. So the difference isnt day and night. Russians plan to equip Item 177 with a third stream to make it an ACE.

Let's see whether we accept 177/S as common engines for our Su-57s & Su-30 UPGs or want Item 30 at any cost.

Izd 30 is better in stealth where as 177 is basically for the export, one level lower. At max you can consider 177 for Super Sukhoi upgrade with stealth treated nozzle. This is the counter to Chinese 5th gen aircrafts along with Rafales.

Issue is, you need an engine technology not just upgrades. US is only providing 80% ToT with 4th gen non stealth eligible GE414. There is a reason you buying GE414 knowing that it is not eligible for stealth operations. Otherwise US itself would have used it for stealth aircrafts isn't it.

Izd 30 is better than any 177, and even got the IOC. But Russians are secretive about it, no one knows it's actual progress, because it is being built for 5+ gen and eventually being refined for 6th gen as well.





Random AI mode comparison between F119 on F22 and Izd30, in 5 years Izd should be compared with F135

• Izdeliye 30: Features serrated (sawtooth) flaps on the engine nozzle and access panels, along with specialized glass-fiber reinforced plastic inlet guide vanes (IGVs) and radar-absorbent materials to disrupt radar waves.
• F119: Pioneers 2-dimensional (pitch only) thrust-vectoring rectangular nozzles that dramatically reduce both the infrared and radar signature from the rear aspect of the aircraft.
• Izdeliye 30: Utilizes axisymmetric 3-dimensional (3D) thrust-vectoring nozzles, allowing the exhaust to be pointed in almost any direction to achieve post-stall maneuverability.
• F119: Utilizes 2-dimensional (2D) pitch-vectoring nozzles (moving strictly up and down), which are specifically designed to reduce radar and IR signatures while maintaining highly effective low-speed control.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Izd 30 is better in stealth where as 177 is basically for the export, one level lower. At max you can consider 177 for Super Sukhoi upgrade with stealth treated nozzle. This is the counter to Chinese 5th gen aircrafts along with Rafales.

Issue is, you need an engine technology not just upgrades. US is only providing 80% ToT with 4th gen non stealth eligible GE414. There is a reason you buying GE414 knowing that it is not eligible for stealth operations. Otherwise US itself would have used it for stealth aircrafts isn't it.

Izd 30 is better than any 177, and even got the IOC. But Russians are secretive about it, no one knows it's actual progress, because it is being built for 5+ gen and eventually being refined for 6th gen as well.

View attachment 51920



Random AI mode comparison between F119 on F22 and Izd30, in 5 years Izd should be compared with F135

• Izdeliye 30: Features serrated (sawtooth) flaps on the engine nozzle and access panels, along with specialized glass-fiber reinforced plastic inlet guide vanes (IGVs) and radar-absorbent materials to disrupt radar waves.
• F119: Pioneers 2-dimensional (pitch only) thrust-vectoring rectangular nozzles that dramatically reduce both the infrared and radar signature from the rear aspect of the aircraft.
• Izdeliye 30: Utilizes axisymmetric 3-dimensional (3D) thrust-vectoring nozzles, allowing the exhaust to be pointed in almost any direction to achieve post-stall maneuverability.
• F119: Utilizes 2-dimensional (2D) pitch-vectoring nozzles (moving strictly up and down), which are specifically designed to reduce radar and IR signatures while maintaining highly effective low-speed control.

177 uses the exact same inlet fan(diameter & metallurgy) and 3 stage LPC of Type 30. Frontal stealth(both IR & RF) along with dry thrust is literally identical. Yes, due to lower HPC stages(5 vs 9), the rear RF & IR stealth of Type 30 is much better. Both of these would use flat serrated nozzles so end RF & IR stealth may not be too different.

Item 177, while not as advance as Type 30, yet if Russians are willing to give us not only generic TOT, but full IP along with 'know-why & know-how', is not a bad choice at all.

 

[PhotonVish]

177 uses the exact same inlet fan(diameter & metallurgy) and 3 stage LPC of Type 30. Frontal stealth(both IR & RF) along with dry thrust is literally identical. Yes, due to lower HPC stages(5 vs 9), the rear RF & IR stealth of Type 30 is much better. Both of these would use flat serrated nozzles so end RF & IR stealth may not be too different.

Item 177, while not as advance as Type 30, yet if Russians are willing to give us not only generic TOT, but full IP along with 'know-why & know-how', is not a bad choice at all.

Its just rumours on social media that russians will give us "full IP with know how and know why"

They wont even give know how and know why for their al41 engine , leave alone 177

 

[Rajput Lion]

Its just rumours on social media that russians will give us "full IP with know how and know why"

They wont even give know how and know why for their al41 engine , leave alone 177

The 177 series is not fully developed yet. So they are offering us full control over it. Talks with Russians are at very advance stage and involves plenty of stuff which isn't in public domain. Su-57 is vital for us to fill the stealth "tip-of-the-spear" gap until first AMCA squadron is ready to fight sometime in 2037-38.

 

[PhotonVish]

The 177 series is not fully developed yet. So they are offering us full control over it. Talks with Russians are at very advance stage and involves plenty of stuff which isn't in public domain. Su-57 is vital for us to fill the stealth "tip-of-the-spear" gap until first AMCA squadron is ready to fight sometime in 2037-38.

If we got any critical tech of 177 then i will be very happy even if su57 came only with 177

We need to derisk our future engine program which is entirely dependent on french who are know to be b*tch in sharing anything of importance

 

[Lolwa]

If we got any critical tech of 177 then i will be very happy even if su57 came only with 177

We need to derisk our future engine program which is entirely dependent on french who are know to be b*tch in sharing anything of importance

You already have the rd-33mk3 and al-31 even using them as an engine will solve our engine issues. The Chinese literally built their entire engine industry on the back of the al-31FN.

 

[Rajput Lion]

You already have the rd-33mk3 and al-31 even using them as an engine will solve our engine issues. The Chinese literally built their entire engine industry on the back of the al-31FN.

We already are in process of creating a digital-twin of AL-31FP. But still having a 5th gen engine that is lighter, more powerful, has better SFC and overall service-life like Item 177S is the need of the hour for UPG. program.

 

[PhotonVish]

You already have the rd-33mk3 and al-31 even using them as an engine will solve our engine issues. The Chinese literally built their entire engine industry on the back of the al-31FN.

But we dont have any ip or know why and know how. Infact we still import hot section parts of those engines

And we will never violates an agreement to reverse engineer them

So if we are having an agreement (as stated by @Rajput Lion ) with full ip and know how and know why for 177 then its worth purchasing su57 even with 177 along with funding for reaching 177 to maturity

 

[Lolwa]

But we dont have any ip or know why and know how. Infact we still import hot section parts of those engines

You don't need IP. We are already license producing these engines. Initial batches of engines can use the rd-33mk3 and al-31fp later we can start indigenising and improving material tech and modifying it once we have got the supply chain and logistics in lock.
Literally zero issues in using the engines for making UAV's, Tejas mk1E etc.

 

[Shan]

Russia’s Su-57 Standoff Strike Operations Signal New Phase in Air-Launched Missile Warfare

Russian Su-57 aircraft are reportedly using Kh-59 and Kh-69 missiles from standoff launch zones, pointing to an evolving Russian air combat doctrine.

www.armyrecognition.com

Ukrainian Air Force communications released on May 3, 2026, together with subsequent Ukrainian air-monitoring alerts documented in May 2026, point to a continued Russian use of Su-57 aircraft in standoff missile operations against Ukraine with Kh-59 and Kh-69 air-launched cruise missiles. The May 3 strike on Dnipro placed the Su-57 in a more visible operational role, with Ukrainian officials linking the attack to Su-34 and Su-57 aircraft launching Kh-59/69 missiles. Subsequent monitoring alerts suggested a wider Su-57 standoff pattern, with reported activity from Kursk, the Azov Sea area near Mariupol, and the Crimean and southern axes.

 

[Hyperactive ADD]

If we got any critical tech of 177 then i will be very happy even if su57 came only with 177

We need to derisk our future engine program which is entirely dependent on french who are know to be b*tch in sharing anything of importance

The French absolutely botched the engine program for the SSJ-100, and on top of that, there were those two Mistral-class ships; the French government is an untrustworthy puppet

Item 177 gets Item 30 like dry power(108KN each) and almost similar wet thrust (158KN vs 162 KN) v/s Type 30. So the difference isnt day and night. Russians plan to equip Item 177 with a third stream to make it an ACE.

Let's see whether we accept 177/S as common engines for our Su-57s & Su-30 UPGs or want Item 30 at any cost.

The maximum sea-level static thrust of the AL-51F should, exceed 18 tons

 

[Lolwa]

We already are in process of creating a digital-twin of AL-31FP. But still having a 5th gen engine that is lighter, more powerful, has better SFC and overall service-life like Item 177S is the need of the hour for UPG. program.

The time to integrate an absorb the 177s will take a decade. We need aircrafts and drones in production right now.