PAK-FA / Sukhoi Su-57 - Updates and Discussions
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Isn't the AL51, F119, F135, EJ200, M88, F414 here all 3 stage engines? Can you elaborate on why some of these are 4.5, 5 and 5.5 gen engines here?
this was really informative, thank you.
This is my own conceptual projection, extrapolated from existing expert and manufacturer classification methodologies.
The 'next-generation engine' is defined by variable cycle technology. While the AL-51F features a three-bypass architecture, its third bypass is fixed and non-adjustable, making it only half a true 'variable bypass ratio' engine; hence, I classify it as a 5.5-generation powerplant.
The benchmark for the 5th generation is typified by the F119. I group the XF9-1 and the Type 177 (WS-15) alongside it since their performance closely matches it, with both delivering an intermediate thrust of 11 tons. As for the remaining cluster of engines, none can hit the benchmark set by the F119, so I downgraded them by half a tier, placing them into the 4.5 generation.
R79, WS-15, AL-41F, 117, 177S, EJ200, and F135
The EJ200 made the cut due to its 3511 aerodynamic configuration—an indisputably advanced design. However, constrained by its low absolute performance metrics, it can only be relegated to the 4.5 generation. Meanwhile,
the M88 and F414 lag far behind the EJ200; in fact, they even fall significantly short of the RD-33MK. I couldn't find the exact thrust curves for the F414, M88-4, and RD-33MK here,
but the curves of their baseline predecessors—the RD-33, F404, and M88-2—are illustrated in the diagram, which is more than sufficient to demonstrate the varying degrees of their upgrade potential.
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There was a strange pasting error in my last post
This is my own conceptual projection, extrapolated from existing expert and manufacturer classification methodologies.
The 'next-generation engine' is defined by variable cycle technology. While the AL-51F features a three-bypass architecture, its third bypass is fixed and non-adjustable, making it only half a true 'variable bypass ratio' engine; hence, I classify it as a 5.5-generation powerplant.
The benchmark for the 5th generation is typified by the F119. I group the XF9-1 and the 177 alongside it since their performance closely matches it, with both delivering an intermediate thrust of 11 tons. As for the remaining cluster of engines, none can hit the benchmark set by the F119, so I downgraded them by half a tier, placing them into the 4.5 generation.
R-79/179, WS-15, AL-41F, 117,117S, 177S, EJ-200, and F135
-----The F135's certified sea-level dynamic thrust reaches 20 tons—which gives it a higher nominal thrust-to-weight ratio—it is, in essence, merely a derivative of the F119 core with an enlarged bypass ratio. Consequently, it lacks the high-speed and high-altitude performance that is absolutely critical for an air-superiority fighter, which is why I have downgraded it by half a tier as well.
In reality, the F135 belongs to the exact same design archetype as the Yak-141's R-79/179 engines; Especially,the F135 inherited its vertical takeoff nozzle design
-----while China's WS-15 inherited its core engine technologies. Therefore, placing all of them into the 4.5 generation is entirely appropriate
-----The EJ200 made the cut due to its 3511 aerodynamic configuration—an indisputably advanced design. However, constrained by its low absolute performance metrics, it can only be relegated to the 4.5 generation.
Meanwhile, the M88 and F414 lag far behind the EJ200; in fact, they even fall significantly short of the RD-33MK. I couldn't find the exact thrust curves for the F414, M88-4, and RD-33MK here, but the curves of their baseline predecessors—the RD-33, F404, and M88-2—are illustrated in the diagram, which is more than sufficient to demonstrate the varying degrees of their upgrade potential.
Yes, M88 and GE414 are not for stealth application. AMCA with GE414 is just a stop gap until they get an actual stealth grade engine, to some extent it does the work against the Chinese but then there are many vulnerabilities.
Putin Offers Su-57 Fighter To Delhi As India Searches Its 5th-Gen Jet
Moscow:
Russian President Vladimir Putin has renewed his offer regarding working jointly on manufacturing the fifth-generation Sukhoi Su-57 fighter jet, which comes with enhanced stealth capabilities. In a wide-ranging interaction with global news agencies, Putin also said Russia was ready to provide India with critical technologies for major defence platforms and weapons.
The Russian leader's offer comes at a time when India is looking to add fifth-generation fighter jets to its arsenal amid concerns of regional neighbours advancing their aerial capabilities. India's own project to develop an indigenous 5th-generation jet (Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft) is also under development, but it is likely to enter service only in the mid-2030s.
"At one point, we proposed to our Indian friends to work together on this technology. But back then, our Indian friends said, 'Go ahead on your own, and then we will see -- maybe we'll join," Putin said.
"The aircraft could have been our joint project. We built it independently, but we are ready to work with India in this field," he added.
The M88-2 and F404 thrust curves you have posted are outdated. They belong to 4th gen.
The performance curves are not public for F414-GE-400 and M88-4E.
From what I've observed across a Russian defence forum, a significant portion of the Russian online community who may or may not be Russians appears far less forgiving of India's recent decisions than the Russian government itself. I'll share some screenshots for those interested, though I should warn that some of the comments are quite hostile and occasionally racist, so those who would rather avoid that content may wish to skip them.
Looking at the matter objectively, I can understand some of the concerns being raised. Every nation is ultimately expected to pursue its own interests, and India is no exception. That said, Russia has been a long-standing and strategically important partner that has contributed substantially to India's defence and technological development over the decades. While safeguarding our national interests must remain the priority, I believe there is also value in managing this relationship with greater sensitivity and diplomatic finesse, especially given the historical depth and significance of the partnership.
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That said, I think it's worth remembering that not all of these opinions are necessarily well informed. Some of the criticism is fair, but some of it also seems to come from frustration, pride, or simply not having the full picture of India's situation and requirements. I came across quite a few comments that felt more emotional than objective, with people making very confident claims about India, its military, or its future without much evidence to back them up. That's not unique to Russian forums either, you'll find the same thing on Indian, American, Chinese, or any other defence forum. So while these posts are interesting to read and give an idea of how some Russians feel, I wouldn't take every opinion there as an accurate reflection of reality.
LMAO neither the opinion of the Russians nor Indians on forums matter in anyway. The MoD of the respective countries will do what they want, if they want it they will put up with it. As for radars and what not we dont even have ANY official talk apart from defence rags lmao. They are also right about Indian avionics in the sense that we dont even have the uttam fully certified right now. Why talk about others replacing the N036 at the moment?
Im sorry to the russians but your economy is shit and has barely any future. Your not really going to grow beyond a certain point and your relations have also been ruined by your own hands. Which markets do the russians really have left that wont be poached by China? cant think of too many.
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So you want to evaluate a fighter "objectively" based on russian racists behavior against indians on a forum?
The initial architecture of a gas turbine's core engine dictates its absolute performance ceiling. This isn't a question of being obsolete or up-to-date; it is a fundamental trait encoded into its DNA from the very beginning. From that point onward, no matter how much you optimize the design or swap in advanced materials, any performance gains will inherently be limited
Are there any Russian forums you would recommend? I'd like to go check them out. Translation software is pretty convenient nowadays. I'm looking for platforms with a large user base and fast post updates
Chinese-made hardware cannot even reach the baseline standards of Russian military gear. Even though they look sleek on the outside—like some state-of-the-art video game models—they lag far behind starting from the most fundamental level of firearms manufacturing.
Take a weapon as straightforward as the SVD: although China reverse-engineered it into the Type 85 and various other messy iterations later on, not a single one has ever matched the original SVD in terms of critical durability, reliability, and precision. The exact same story applies to the AK-74M as well。And on top of that, their prices are generally more than double
The fact that your response is about fighter evaluations when the post was about public sentiment and bilateral relations is a pretty good example of why discussions keep talking past each other
You posted about some russian forum posts and you think the entire discussion is about public sentiment? Interesting.
Interesting. I explicitly said "a significant portion of the Russian online community on that forum" and somehow you've translated that into "the entire discussion" and "all public sentiment." At this point you're arguing with a much broader claim than the one I actually made.
the user base didn't seem very big and they aren't allowing new users to join for over a year since I skimmed over some of their topics.
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Both M88-4E and F414 come with redesigned cores.
F414 has a new fan, new compressor design with blisk, and FADEC compared to F404, not just new materials.
M88-4E also comes with a new compressor stage and advanced cooling compared to 2.
In this forum discussion, you brought it up and saying thats the topic here.
No one in either the government or the air force cares about what these racist armchair warriors think.
Nope, you seem to have trouble understanding, in a post about India Russia relations regarding Su 57 where the Government of both have relatively warm nature towards each other, I was merely expanding about how some of their online netizens have a difference of opinion. You just assumed the rest yourself.