Not sure how true this is considering american history
Difference is that we gain technical know how and know why and production practice versus simply importing from unreliable partners like America.
Future Combat Air System (FCAS) - France/Germany
- Thread starter randomradio
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This certainly wouldn't be the 1st time for the UAE. In the 90s, they financed the dev of the B60 Desert Falcon variant of the Viper and hold IPR for some of the onboard electronics.
It was B60 that spawned the dev of later models like B70/72 for which the UAE probably receives royalties from LM to this day.
Sanctions are the danger, not the strings.
We are not gonna get either know-how or know-why. Not even Rafale ToT comes with that. This is only for AMCA's engine.
For 6th gen, it's just foreground IP. You make the radar, it's yours. We make the radar, it's ours. Everything that led to the design and production of the radar belongs to the creator, not the partner, that's background IP. The only thing shared is the foreground IP based on financial share, there's no ToT. So we either replace the core avionics or import the core avionics. But doing the former is time consuming and defeats the purpose of the JV.
Manufacturing with ToT is essentially copying a blueprint, you only learn how to manufacture something. There's no R&D understanding involved. The idea behind production ToT is purely to support the IAF. It has zero influence in R&D programs.
Even with Su-57 production, we will only see a normal localization with zero impact on R&D, the same as MKI. Even the FGFA JV was just a more expensive indigenization program, where we pay and the Russians develop.
So whether it's SCAF, GCAP, or F-47, a large order only means local production for sustainability. But if we go for an F-47I with Israel, we will be able to upgrade an Indian/Israeli EW suite on our own while being able to add our own weapons wherever radar integration is not necessary. And an American jet will be globally sustainable. The F-35I is more sustainable than the F-35A too, it's independent from LM's logistics ecosystem. The Americans have offered the Saudis the same deal.
SCAF JV will take until 2045 to deliver full capability, Trappier hinted at 2050. GCAP will take until 2040. F-47 will take until 2035. It's obvious which one will save time.
No, the US can't offer any Israeli items, There was talk of offering the F-35, you would have to get rid of the S-400, same as turkey, Probably other stuff as well
You would have had to negotiate with Israel, to add any of their individual items, The same as individual items from other nations
You still need medicating, the voices in your head must be bothersome
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True, a cardboard has much higher survivability than an actual 5th gen platform.
I'm asking cause you said this, "I've always held the view that a jet with canards has lower RCS relative to its own design without canards rather than it being a standard required for all jets."
Everything is interconnected
You are talking as if there was a clause saying otherwise, everyone knows the tot for rafale is just 50% or at best 60%, we aint getting the tech for it's engine or avionics, everything else we have already mostly caught up with them and didn't require much anyway. Also, the clause can be clearly defined for the JV aircraft just like the one with them for the engine.
We still get all the advancements made during the JV for new tech and considering our technological base, this is a good deal and within expectations.
Nobody is talking about Manufacturing ToT, we are talking about joint development.
Precise manufacturing, complex composites, radar absorbent structures, tight tolerance, digital production systems, supply chain development, system integration etc are some of the benefits of it and we arent't asking Su57 Local Production to develop our R&D in the first place, so not sure why you even mentioned it.
The Su57 is a much better deal for us and it's actually operational right now and we will be dependant on america for the F47 and it's subsystems which isnt a good place to be for our strategic autonomy.
the timelines are relatively similar but I consider us getting more for the buck with GCAP than F47.
Su-57 is not competing here. The choices are between SCAF, GCAP, and F-47, actual 6th gen jets.
I'm claiming the opposite. J-20 without canards will be more stealthy than J-20 with canards. But J-20 with canards is still more stealthy than an F-15. So the canards themselves have little to do with whether a jet is stealthy or not.
So an F-47 without canards could be more stealthy, but they are fine with whatever stealth they have managed to get with canards.
Trump offered the Saudis the F-35I too.
The Israelis offered India all their stuff.
No, the S-400s aren't a problem. It's just an Erdogan-Israel problem.
We get airframe and engine manufacturing ToT, we won't get avionics. But we won't get know-how and know-why, those are completely different.
No, we get nothing except manfacturing ToT of exportable tech.
Like that Brahmos engine that was supposed to come to India but Russia decided to keep for themselves. Everything else has been Indianized.
JV is manufacturing ToT, but with some IP ownership. We get a share in the profits, that's the only thing extra.
We will have to replace everything else on our own using our own tech if we want full control over the jet. Like, we will need to replace the Brahmos motor with our own to make it 100% Indian.
DRDO Makes A Step Forward In Making India’s Very Own 'BrahMos-like' Supersonic Cruise Missile, Tests Its Liquid Ramjet Fuel
India took a step towards developing another completely Made-in-India ‘BrahMos’-like supersonic missile. Two days ago (on 8 May), the Defence Material
swarajyamag.com
Under this agreement, India imports the ramjet engines of the BrahMos missile, and its fuel, seeker, and various other components from Russia.
It is only in the last 5-10 years that India has started indigenising various components of the BrahMos and tested them successfully like its active radar homing seeker and its booster.
GCAP, everything will be made by the partners. If we negotiate 5% of the JV, then we get 5% of the workshare and 5% of IPR ownership. But we can negotiate 100% ToT for the airframe and 80% for the engine in the process and eventually indigenize the remaining 20% of the engine and almost 100% of the core avionics to make it fully indigenous. The Italian radar will remain Italian, we won't get access to it. Profits will be shared as per the JV.
All that won't help ADA's next jet. It will only create manpower experience. In case Tata makes GCAP and L&T makes ADA's next jet, how will Tata's experience help L&T? L&T will have to poach workers from Tata. This is just a stupid plan. None of what you said will help DRDO is what I'm saying.
We already have many aerospace programs for the companies involved.
There won't be any difference in dependency. Neither are sanction-proof.
Anyway, Su-57 isn't competing with 6th gen. Su-57 will be selected only if AMCA is headed towards failure.
First, we will clear Rafale production and AMCA R&D. This will happen by the end of the year or early next year. By then we will know the status of LCA Mk2. A year later, AMCA and perhaps even FUFA. By then Su-57 would have matured.
At that point, we will see if AMCA's gonna fail or not, since it has to enter initial production by then. If AMCA is facing delays or failure, then the IAF will think about Su-57.
6th gen is a parallel process independent from Su-57 and AMCA.
GCAP will come at European costs without matching the capability of the F-47. The choice is between local production and higher capability.
So what can these jets do except gimmicks which the Su57 already can't or can't be upgraded to do? and remember, these jets will have their share of design compromises.
ah ok, that's fair.
I'm just waiting for the american cope on their reddit, forums and youtube channels who shat on the J20 for having canards just to do the same on their new platform.
Survivability will be a generation ahead of the F-22.
Su-57, AMCA etc are designed for stealth in the X to Ku band. F-47, GCAP etc are from VHF to terahertz bands. Meaning, they are designed to defeat photonic radars.
It was never an argument for me.
The only weakness of canards is it's easier for missile seekers to lock on to when the canards deflect. That's about it.
AMCA will not come before 2035, and thats assume that not hiccups occured which is extremely optimistic for a complex project, same for 120kn AMCA engine, i dont thrust france either.
So there is a good possibility that any 5th gen will be imported, Su-57 has more possibility, as if f35 were to be imported, we were having negotiations now in open
No for GCAP, it is as much 6th gen as AMCA mk2 and F22(with upgaded avionics) are 6th gen and Kf-21 block 1 is 5th gen
Americans makes best jet. Their F-22 raptor was a cold war master piece, so is F-117 , soviat answer Mig 1.44 was not as good as raptor even in papers
USA lagged china is a2a or any other due to war on terror and changed priority to fight unconventional war( that why they halted more F-22 and rather focused on high bypass powerd f-35)
Now as USA is back in game, F-47 will be better than any jet chinease field
A 2-3 squardan of F-47 will be great, and we should also focused on making a true 6th gen fighter (unlike 5.5 gen GCAP).
We will get time cushion to develope 6th gen fighter till 2050(24 years from now)
We should be focused engine, we can make better avionics that whatever europe can field, anyways europe is always behind in avionics even to russia
We should maybe JV either with UK or Russia for 6th gen JV (other than JV with french for AMCA)
Our economy in 2050 will be bigger than UK+Italy+Japan combined, being junior partner(5% share) wont give us tech to develope 7th gen fighter
In conclusion:
-> we should focus on engine tech, everything else we can make, and we will have money
-> buy time so that we can fully commit to indigenous 6th gen without compromising national security
So there is a good possibility that any 5th gen will be imported, Su-57 has more possibility, as if f35 were to be imported, we were having negotiations now in open
No for GCAP, it is as much 6th gen as AMCA mk2 and F22(with upgaded avionics) are 6th gen and Kf-21 block 1 is 5th gen
Americans makes best jet. Their F-22 raptor was a cold war master piece, so is F-117 , soviat answer Mig 1.44 was not as good as raptor even in papers
USA lagged china is a2a or any other due to war on terror and changed priority to fight unconventional war( that why they halted more F-22 and rather focused on high bypass powerd f-35)
Now as USA is back in game, F-47 will be better than any jet chinease field
A 2-3 squardan of F-47 will be great, and we should also focused on making a true 6th gen fighter (unlike 5.5 gen GCAP).
We will get time cushion to develope 6th gen fighter till 2050(24 years from now)
We should be focused engine, we can make better avionics that whatever europe can field, anyways europe is always behind in avionics even to russia
We should maybe JV either with UK or Russia for 6th gen JV (other than JV with french for AMCA)
Our economy in 2050 will be bigger than UK+Italy+Japan combined, being junior partner(5% share) wont give us tech to develope 7th gen fighter
In conclusion:
-> we should focus on engine tech, everything else we can make, and we will have money
-> buy time so that we can fully commit to indigenous 6th gen without compromising national security
Although the X and Ku band is the primary focus, all these 5th gen jets are designed to have lower signature across multiple parts of their spectrum using all the currently employed measures.
There is no public proof or evidence about such capability, so I'll repeat my point about these jets mostly can't do what the Su57 can already do or can be upgraded to do.
Canards, especially during it's deflection under various maneuvers will definitely impact the stealth in a negative manner.
What part don't you understand?
The nations who develop the tech with LM, own the tech, The US can't delegate it, Anyone wanting it, has to negotiate with the nation who owns it,
Israel can offer, but again I haven't seen it said
The US disagrees with you about the S-400
Türkiye must abandon S-400 system to rejoin F-35 program: US envoy
U.S. Ambassador to Türkiye and Special Envoy for Syria Tom Barrack stated on Wednesday that Türkiye must forgo operating or retaining the Russian S-400...
Other than the voices in your head, I'll call you out, put credible links for India and Saudis being offered the F-35I
This is like drowning kittens, it's painful to watch you
No, 5th gen are specifically treated only for X-Ku (specifically 5-18 GHz, so C band). The stealth does bleed into S and L bands, but it's not a lot. But it's very weak against K band and above. Metamaterials operating up to 40 Ghz can compensate for it a bit, but not much. And definitely not on the Su-57. Above 40 Ghz to 300 Thz, all 5th gens are visible just like in VHF.
Um, what? The technologies for it already exists. The shaping alone is proof of treatment for VHF. And next gen metamaterials have been proven to work at terahertz frequencies. We already know the roadmap of their development. 1-40 Ghz metamaterials are available in lab conditions for military use. Whereas 6G requires mms in the terahertz frequencies.
Mig-41 will come with all these features. As per Russian doctrine, they will use Su-57s over their own defenses while the more advanced Mig-41 will go beyond.
Only during extreme maneuvers, like dodging missiles or a dogfight. In normal flight, the deflections are minimal.
Apart from some future 6th gen being tailless, what revolutionary stealth geometry does these jets employ that not already present in these 5th gen? Also if such metamaterials become operational, what makes you think it can't be employed in 5th gen.
We will see it when it happens
Those reflection causes radar returns.
Previous track records show that France always liked to work independently with full control on IP rights. India should think critically and clearly on the know-how, work share & IP rights before signing any agreement. There should be a transparency of the project philosophy between parties. Due to a well established Aerospace & Aeroengine ecosystem France will naturally have the high end R&D infrastructure but India should put a significant work share on R&D in the agreement ( if it eventually happens) especially in domains of Aeroengines, Avionics, Metallurgy, Designing.
Though historically France remained reluctant to share co-development ( in Europe especially) regarding sophisticated military technologies, I think France is a more reliable development partner in comparison to many other existing options for India.
India doesn't want to be a customer only , but wants to have the detailed core know-how to make any further development/ improvement in future independently if needed.
Yes, for France it makes much more sense to work with India than to have to artificially divide design authority between partners who did not want the same aircraft. I had also suggested to our president that Dassault should modify the Indian AMCA so that it could serve as the FCAS demonstrator. It is an idea that is now becoming more credible.