ADA AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft

[screambowl]

But we don't have ToT of F404 & F414 yet, right?
So our access to western tech has turned out to be deception in span of 25 years.

GOI scared to reverse engineer the engines.

> ISRO, DRDO, etc have done well so far with our economy.

They had a plan, MoD on air craft procurement and jet engine technology doesn't have any plan.

ISRO has high temp materials obviously. DRDO needs to develop high temp RF blocker for exhaust.
> They're working on TVC but round nozzle as per their slide, like in F-35. They need to develop flat or say hexagonal nozzle.

Point is production facility lacks, look at HAL what they are doing with basic 4th gen fighter. Private partnership won't be very different.

Engineers are not afraid of rework/redesign, structural or other kind of tweaking, troubleshooting, that's their daily job & quite interesting actually for those who like their job. Engineering is solving the constraints, complains.
Has anybody visited steel plant, big metal factories? In emergency, just for a TD, some cutting, welding can be done & looking at numerous jets designed globally since 1950, it won't affect the aerodynamics to such an extent like a dead end & ofcourse CFD, wind tunnel tests, Mainframe 7 Supercomputing, AI/ML, etc are there to assist as part of SOP.

This food of testing AMCA with different came to mind because they have 5 physical prototypes for AMCA. This is why I was doubtful that if they are keen to test AMCA on other engines too.

 

[Photon Vish]

Is AMCA Mk2 be only able to supercruise at mach 1.3 ?

That is same as Su-57 with Al-41f1.

Then Its bad, AMCA will come in 2039, Even turkey will have far better indigenous 5th gen Kaan with better supercruise.

For info, F22 can supercruise at mach 1.8, Su-57 is supposed to do that at mach 1.9 .

While our AMCA will do that with mach 1.3 which is very close to transonic speed.

Then we should aim for 140kn with almost 95kn dry thrust for AMCA mk2.

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

GOI scared to reverse engineer the engines.

That's a legal violation as per contract i guess.

They had a plan, MoD on air craft procurement and jet engine technology doesn't have any plan.

Then what are all these JV talks with EU guys?

Point is production facility lacks, look at HAL what they are doing with basic 4th gen fighter. Private partnership won't be very different.

It is always Optimism & action Vs Pessimism &/or over-optimism with peace.
But every century will show dark side of humans in wars, invasions, looting. After 1000 years of slavery we should learn.
In 2026-2036 people can't afford to work like it's 1986-1996 or even 1996-2006.
Anyways, being monopolistic, HAL head said even if they're not selected for AMCA still it won't affect them as their order book is full with other things.
But in private sector even CEOs are expendable.
So GoI/MoD needs to expand DoD units or create multiple units, generating employment, absorbing world's biggest population.
In Aerospace there are private startups like -
- Skyroot
- Agnikul Cosmos,
- Ethereal X
- Pixxel
- Dhruva Space
- Galax Eye Space
- Bellatrix Aerospace
- Digantara
- Cosmoserve
etc.
They have to be brought together & coordinated.
Some Defence startups for guns & ammo too, so bigger Defence startup can be expected, like in US there're Anduril, Shield AI, General Atomics, etc.
GoI & DRDO will have to support them initially.

This food of testing AMCA with different came to mind because they have 5 physical prototypes for AMCA. This is why I was doubtful that if they are keen to test AMCA on other engines too.

So as it's just a TD/prototype, not equipped with every combat equipment but only what's needed to be tested, hence IMO, they should test AMCA with RD-33. After 10 years we should expect JV engine.

.
.
.
.
Anyways my point is that today 5gen engine is not UFO tech for DRDO.
And i don't think that there's any restriction that aerospace high temp tech cannot be shared to DoD units.
DRDO & ISRO may not work directly but some sharing mechanism through IITs, IISc, etc must be there.

 

[batman]

Is AMCA Mk2 be only able to supercruise at mach 1.3 ?

It should be able to supercruise although I'm not sure of the exact speed

That is same as Su-57 with Al-41f1.

Su57 is very efficient and aerodynamic design with advanced control surfaces, it shouldn't be seen as a bad way. Even the F35 with much more powerful engines cannot supercruise because of its inferior aerodyanmic design and less advanced control surfaces. You shouldn't just look at the engine figures but observe what the jet can do, even the take off performance of Su57 with this older engine is much superior to American aircrafts, it's even better than the F22, let alone the the fat F35, think what the Su57 can do with its newer more powerful engines.

Then Its bad, AMCA will come in 2039, Even turkey will have far better indigenous 5th gen Kaan with better supercruise.

Don't think it will affect mission capability that much, there are way too many factors in modern aerial warfare than engine performance alone. Not to mention we should be able to walk before we can fly, let us first develop a reliable and capable jet, then we can move to more powerful versions.

For info, F22 can supercruise at mach 1.8, Su-57 is supposed to do that at mach 1.9 .

F22 is an outdated jet by modern standards, no point bringing it here. Su57 is a really capable jet and will greatly strengthen our capability if we acquire it especially against modern threats.

While our AMCA will do that with mach 1.3 which is very close to transonic speed.

Then we should aim for 140kn with almost 95kn dry thrust for AMCA mk2.

Lets wait and watch.

 

[screambowl]

Then what are all these JV talks with EU guys?

Not yet materialized. Will take ages to get supercruise technology, by the time they may shift to Russia.

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

Is AMCA Mk2 be only able to supercruise at mach 1.3 ?

That is same as Su-57 with Al-41f1.

Then Its bad, AMCA will come in 2039, Even turkey will have far better indigenous 5th gen Kaan with better supercruise.

For info, F22 can supercruise at mach 1.8, Su-57 is supposed to do that at mach 1.9 .

While our AMCA will do that with mach 1.3 which is very close to transonic speed.

Then we should aim for 140kn with almost 95kn dry thrust for AMCA mk2.

Not yet materialized. Will take ages to get supercruise technology, by the time they may shift to Russia.

Supercruise depends on (thrust - drag) + lift. In other words, proper shaping & thrust.
Though there are multiple types of drag & different ways to handle them.
> Parasitic drag -

- Form drag, due to shape & cross section​

- skin friction drag​

- Interference drag, caused at junction of parts where airflows mix.​

> Induced drag by wing producing spiral vortex.
> sonic wave drag.

If ATWR, LDR are made good by high shaping & other drag handling measures, then it can supercruise.

 

[screambowl]

sonic wave drag.

At transonic speeds the wave drag shows drastic increase. Dry TWR has to overcome this.

 

[Parthu]

Is AMCA Mk2 be only able to supercruise at mach 1.3 ?

That is same as Su-57 with Al-41f1.

Then Its bad, AMCA will come in 2039, Even turkey will have far better indigenous 5th gen Kaan with better supercruise.

For info, F22 can supercruise at mach 1.8, Su-57 is supposed to do that at mach 1.9 .

While our AMCA will do that with mach 1.3 which is very close to transonic speed.

Then we should aim for 140kn with almost 95kn dry thrust for AMCA mk2.

AMCA is not intended to be an air superiority fighter unlike Su-57, F-22 or KAAN.

For what its purpose is (swingrole fighter), being able to supercruise at all is more than par for course. F-35 can't even do that.

This is why IAF is interested in programs like FCAS/GCAP. We will still need a next-gen fighter capable of air superiority roles against likes of J-36/J-XDS and serve as replacement for Su-30MKI, which is a role AMCA was never meant to fill.

 

[lmaoxd]

AMCA is not intended to be an air superiority fighter unlike Su-57, F-22 or KAAN.

For what its purpose is (swingrole fighter), being able to supercruise at all is more than par for course. F-35 can't even do that.

This is why IAF is interested in programs like FCAS/GCAP. We will still need a next-gen fighter capable of air superiority roles against likes of J-36/J-XDS and serve as replacement for Su-30MKI, which is a role AMCA was never meant to fill.

then what is the AMCA meant to be if not A-A ? Its cant do a lot of multirole because of its payload.

 

[Parthu]

then what is the AMCA meant to be if not A-A ? Its cant do a lot of multirole because of its payload.

It's basically our F-35.

What we don't have is a F-22 equivalent.

This doesn't mean AMCA can't do A-A, it can & it will. In fact it will be our best A2A fighter till whenever a 6th gen comes.

It's just that the airframe & propulsion package we've planned for it is not something a true air superiority fighter would need.

 

[batman]

AMCA is not intended to be an air superiority fighter unlike Su-57, F-22 or KAAN.

For what its purpose is (swingrole fighter), being able to supercruise at all is more than par for course. F-35 can't even do that.

This is why IAF is interested in programs like FCAS/GCAP. We will still need a next-gen fighter capable of air superiority roles against likes of J-36/J-XDS and serve as replacement for Su-30MKI, which is a role AMCA was never meant to fill.

so it can neither be proper A2A due to lack of thrust vectoring and limited IWB and neither can it do heavy strike do to it's limited internal payload? how does it compare with our adverseries capabilities.

It's basically our F-35.

Kinda true

What we don't have is a F-22 equivalent.

We will, it called the Su57 which is a generation ahead of the F22 in capability.

This doesn't mean AMCA can't do A-A, it can & it will. In fact it will be our best A2A fighter till whenever a 6th gen comes.

Our best A2A fighter will be the Su57 with it's more powerful engines, superior kinematic performance, 3d thrust vectoring, better sensor coverage, more mature tech, greater internal weapons payload and combat radius, DIRCM capability, longer range bvr weapons in stealth configuration etc
The advantages AMCA might have is it's better forward aspect stealth and more powerful frontal radar if utham becomes mature.

It's just that the airframe & propulsion package we've planned for it is not something a true air superiority fighter would need.

 

[Parthu]

so it can neither be proper A2A due to lack of thrust vectoring and limited IWB and neither can it do heavy strike do to it's limited internal payload? how does it compare with our adverseries capabilities.

AMCA fulfills a specific role. It'll be the best penetration-capable manned aircraft we'll have. But it will be operating in an environment accompanied by CCAs & other unmanned assets (Ghatak), once the enemy IADS has been degraded through standoff strikes by the likes of Rudram-2/3 carried by MKI.

It's low RCS combined with a networked battlespace will enable it to shoot at the enemy's platforms (low observable or otherwise) by making use of offboard L-band & S-band radar inputs.

This is similar to how other multrole-focused 5th gen planes like F-35 and J-35 are meant to operate.

We will, it called the Su57 which is a generation ahead of the F22 in capability.

Our best A2A fighter will be the Su57 with it's more powerful engines, superior kinematic performance, 3d thrust vectoring, better sensor coverage, more mature tech, greater internal weapons payload and combat radius, DIRCM capability, longer range bvr weapons in stealth configuration etc
The advantages AMCA might have is it's better forward aspect stealth and more powerful frontal radar if utham becomes mature.

If you've already made up your mind that IAF is gonna buy Su-57, there's nothing I can say.

My take is that we've closely evaluated that platform for nearly a decade, right through its initial development phases. We've actually spent around Rs. 2,000 crores on a joint design & development contract for the FGFA variant.

And then we rejected it as inadequate for our needs. I don't see any reason why that assessment will change.

 

[batman]

If you've already made up your mind that IAF is gonna buy Su-57, there's nothing I can say.

I would say it's inevitable, we don't even have a handful of tejas mk1a, we need to go to mk2 then amca, we need the Su57.

My take is that we've closely evaluated that platform for nearly a decade, right through its initial development phases. We've actually spent around Rs. 2,000 crores on a joint design & development contract for the FGFA variant.

And then we rejected it as inadequate for our needs. I don't see any reason why that assessment will change.

That was not the same jet though and there were many other reasons we went out of the project. Regardless of our history, based on it's current capability, it's the best 5th gen out there and will be better than the AMCA for A2A roles for the above mentioned reasons however AMCA has the advantage in first come first fire basis.

 

[Photon Vish]

AMCA is not intended to be an air superiority fighter unlike Su-57, F-22 or KAAN.

For what its purpose is (swingrole fighter), being able to supercruise at all is more than par for course. F-35 can't even do that.

Ohh, so my Information was so wrong. From its design and specs, i always thought that its air-superiority fighter.

By the way, are we developing any long range air to ground munitions for IWB ?

Like cruise missile with >300km range like JSM (Joint strike missile) ?

 

[Parthu]

I would say it's inevitable, we don't even have a handful of tejas mk1a, we need to go to mk2 then amca, we need the Su57.

That was not the same jet though and there were many other reasons we went out of the project. Regardless of our history, based on it's current capability, it's the best 5th gen out there and will be better than the AMCA for A2A roles for the above mentioned reasons however AMCA has the advantage in first come first fire basis.

Whatever 'changes' we're seeing now were already on the roadmap years ago and were known to IAF.

Ohh, so my Information was so wrong. From its design and specs, i always thought that its air-superiority fighter.

By the way, are we developing any long range air to ground munitions for IWB ?

Like cruise missile with >300km range like JSM (Joint strike missile) ?

Something based on CATS Hunter could emerge. Have to wait & see.



Newer, stealthier design:

 

[Photon Vish]

Whatever 'changes' we're seeing now were already on the roadmap years ago and were known to IAF.



Something based on CATS Hunter could emerge. Have to wait & see.

View attachment 52766

Newer, stealthier design:

View attachment 52767

When will they come online ? Any idea ?

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

AMCA is not intended to be an air superiority fighter unlike Su-57, F-22 or KAAN.

For what its purpose is (swingrole fighter), being able to supercruise at all is more than par for course. F-35 can't even do that.

ASF need to be good in BVR with stealth, in WVR with CCMs & gun-fight.
AMCA can be good in BVR & WVR with LOAL mode CCMs, but in gun-fight w/o TVC it'll loose mostly against a TVC jet.
F-35 can't SuCr due to low ATWR, LDR, wing sweep & area for lift + bulky & bumpy hence called "Fat Amy"

It's basically our F-35.

So if F-35 is Fat Amy, AMCA is like our F-35 but not fat but rather skinny, then it can be called LAZY/SKINNY... what?

 

[Rajput Lion]

AMCA fulfills a specific role. It'll be the best penetration-capable manned aircraft we'll have. But it will be operating in an environment accompanied by CCAs & other unmanned assets (Ghatak), once the enemy IADS has been degraded through standoff strikes by the likes of Rudram-2/3 carried by MKI.

It's low RCS combined with a networked battlespace will enable it to shoot at the enemy's platforms (low observable or otherwise) by making use of offboard L-band & S-band radar inputs.

This is similar to how other multrole-focused 5th gen planes like F-35 and J-35 are meant to operate.



If you've already made up your mind that IAF is gonna buy Su-57, there's nothing I can say.

My take is that we've closely evaluated that platform for nearly a decade, right through its initial development phases. We've actually spent around Rs. 2,000 crores on a joint design & development contract for the FGFA variant.

And then we rejected it as inadequate for our needs. I don't see any reason why that assessment will change.

I know yoy guys dont accept it and would call it fanboy fallacy but IAF chief gave go ahead to Su-57D/60MKI procurement in a meeting held on 9th June between top defence ministry officials(including def min himself) and IAF chief. More details would come out in due time.

 

[Parthu]

When will they come online ? Any idea ?

No idea. AFAIK, this program hasn't even been officially sanctioned by IAF yet. But they're more than likely to obtain it in due course, give it 5-6 years.

We will need a stealthy, relatively inexpensive (compared to BrahMos) subsonic ALCM that can hug terrain in large numbers anyway. And we can't go with SCALP for bulk of that requirement as import would be too expensive and defeat the purpose.

So there's indeed a very CATS Hunter-shaped hole in our eventual requirement. For launch from both manned & unmanned platforms.