India eyes 6th generation FCAS, looks at tying up with France for possible collaboration

[Ashwin]

This is far more significant than the rumors from February: the Indian Ministry of Defence has officially informed a parliamentary committee that it has initiated steps to join the French sixth-generation program. This is no longer a case of a journalist extrapolating from a ministerial meeting.

Don't get too excited.

If you know anything about india. We dont make any such long term commitments that fast. It will be 5 year ride with ups and downs. At most, we may initially participate on a limited basis, as we did with the PAK FA by committing around 350 million. It testing waters. Be rest assured, we will be talking to the British in the same way to gauge their response.

 

[Ashwin]

This is a horrible mistake. France is a horrible partner. India is going to be milked so bad that it would make Russia look like a saint. Modi just keeps making disastrous decisions one after another. BJP needs to go!!! They've had power for too long.

You are the same kind of person who complains about the lack of long-term vision like a broken radio.

Imagine if we had shown this level of foresight and commitment to developing a jet engine few decades ago.

But, When they do anything like that. Boom, its time for Rahul gandhi.

 

[Ginvincible]

Honestly, India asking to be part of FCAS might be the most realistic assessment of Indian aerospace capability in decades.

It honestly baffles me that people are already worried about whether France will give India enough ToT, IP or workshare.

Guys, you’ll take what France offers.

France has the technology and the industry. India has a chequebook.

Those are the negotiating positions.

France does not need India to build a 6th gen fighter. It would cost them more and probably take longer without partners, but they could do it. They spent generations building Dassault, Safran, Thales and MBDA.

India spent generations announcing an aerospace industry.

If Paris offers limited workshare, limited ToT and a massive bill, New Delhi can either accept it or walk away and build FCAS-class technology itself.

We all know which option is more realistic.

 

[RationalGuy]

View attachment 53415

Bruh they say FCAS and then show an image of J36

 

[RationalGuy]

Honestly, India asking to be part of FCAS might be the most realistic assessment of Indian aerospace capability in decades.

It honestly baffles me that people are already worried about whether France will give India enough ToT, IP or workshare.

Guys, you’ll take what France offers.

France has the technology and the industry. India has a chequebook.

Those are the negotiating positions.

France does not need India to build a 6th gen fighter. It would cost them more and probably take longer without partners, but they could do it. They spent generations building Dassault, Safran, Thales and MBDA.

India spent generations announcing an aerospace industry.

If Paris offers limited workshare, limited ToT and a massive bill, New Delhi can either accept it or walk away and build FCAS-class technology itself.

We all know which option is more realistic.

Yea an option in which Vishwaguru needs to hold the hands of the goras forever to do any significant aeronautical program rather than learning and doing it by itself through investment and iteration over decades.

You talk as if India has absolutely nothing when it comes to the military aeronautical industry, as if we are just another Indonesia who are just capable of paying the big bucks and haven't built radars, air to air missiles, flight control systems, complex actuators, jet engine expertise and a bazillion other things and thus needs to run to someone else always for the scraps they are ready to throw.

That the Indian aerospace ecosystem is far weaker than Europe, China or the US is a fact but it has the base to grow stronger and eventually reach a competitive position in 20-30 years. Joining a program run by someone else will not holistically build a domestic aerospace programs, pursuing indigenous programs does that.

If India keeps running and begging for these foreign run joint ventures it will always be some bloated regional power forever.

 

[jmaxwell_]

The Indian aerospace sector is at a critical inflection point now, and if once again it is starved of funds it will wither away and die.

As long as the corresponding Indian programs are funded with an equal dollar amount to what will be given away to the French, no harm.

We all know that if the Indian programs directly requested the same amount of funding, the powers that be would shut that s*** down faster than you can say yojna. So it should be codified in the procurement process, that if a foreign firm is provided some dollar amount to develop some gizmo, then the Indian public and private sector will be provided an equal grant by the govt...

 

[Speedster1]

GCAP's design has already been frozen and workshare allocation for the onboard electronics suite is also largely complete. Imo, FCAS could potentially give us more opportunities to contribute, esp once the AMCA prog gets going. Key private sector production partners for AMCA have been picked by DA to be a part of the Rafale ecosystem anyway.

Besides FCAS is a system of systems concept with CCAs, combat cloud, etc. Indian companies could be roped in to design and build the peripherals at the very least. BAe is working on drone/CCA projects of its own with little scope for Indian cos to contribute. We might just have to make do with simulator, training aids related work.

Logically, this deal is for France to lose. But given that GoI likes to spread its defence moolah among multiple foriegn partners (Scorpene B2 cancelled last minute for Germany's T214), the dice could roll in any direction in the time to come)

 

[_Anonymous_]

GCAP's design has already been frozen and workshare allocation for the onboard electronics suite is also largely complete. Imo, FCAS could potentially give us more opportunities to contribute, esp once the AMCA prog gets going. Key private sector production partners for AMCA have been picked by DA to be a part of the Rafale ecosystem anyway.

Besides FCAS is a system of systems concept with CCAs, combat cloud, etc. Indian companies could be roped in to design and build the peripherals at the very least. BAe is working on drone/CCA projects of its own with little scope for Indian cos to contribute. We might just have to make do with simulator, training aids related work.

Logically, this deal is for France to lose. But given that GoI likes to spread its defence moolah among multiple foriegn partners (Scorpene B2 cancelled last minute for Germany's T214), the dice could roll in any direction in the time to come)

Ideally we do our own thing & buy technology we're unable to develop on our own or thru collaboration - the 120 KN JV being a case in point.

Plus we enjoy enough goodwill across the spectrum to get access to what we want , more or less , with the only exception being the US given we're no closer to an agreement on the F-414 than we were same time last year.

However given we also literally summarily dismissed UK's proposal to join the GCAP as the terms were suspiciously like what we encountered in the PAKFA / FGFA project , I wonder what will le Francais offer which will be different.

We could however still join the program as a thought experiment in the capacity of a junior partner cum sub contractor just for the exposure to state of the art designing & mfg processes.

Ideally we also launch our own 6th Gen program sometime in the late 2040s after joining this one when the AMCA project is on the verge of fruition but I doubt we've the funds for 2 separate 6th Gen programs .

Though in all this we've already gotten a feel of what the probable template could be if we go by Steno Shishir's article - the IAF is planning to get 2 squadrons of Su-57 .

That 2 squadrons could go to 4 & that should be the end of that without getting into setting up production facilities here for another 4-8 squadrons thereby jeopardizing our own indigenous programs.

Hence it's Plan A - our indigenous program as far as the 6th Gen project goes with Plan B - our indigenous program plus off the shelf purchase as a back up in case the project is delayed also with the option to buy out tech like the 6th Gen TF if we aren't in a position to develop it in house on time or get into a JV with a willing partner as we have for the AMCA project.

The last alternative is a JV for the entire 6th Gen ecosystem as we're exploring now.

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

France didn't adjust with Germany, then it won't adjust with India either bcoz small EU nations have different geography, geopolitics, economy, need, different than Asia/India.

When DRDO has made RAM, RAS, etc, working on DEW, TVC, etc then we don't need full airframe of FCAS/GCAP, just the engine & some components.

AMCA is not the end of combat jet design, but future jet design has to start today if not already started bcoz it takes 15-20 years. So if ADA won't put effort then PPP must.

3 decades have passed since IT boom, now AI started impacting jobs.
Almost 9000 AICTE approved tech colleges.
23 IITs with 18,000+ seats.
26 IIITs with 11,000+ seats.
31 NITs with 25,000+ seats.
The only way out is to have a good industrial ecosystem & generate revenue for R&D by making exportable products & services in every domain - automobile, appliances, electronics, all types of machines, etc.

 

[Saaho]

Idk man, I think we are doing the same thing that we did with russia in the past and putting too many eegs in one basket with regards to the french. I would much rather join the GCAP today than the FCAS which is going to come years from the GCAP. I just don't know.

i get that going for the FCAS would solve a combined problem for both the IN and the IAF considering the FCAS is carrier capable but idk if it can do STOBAR and although India does want a CATOBAR and has taken a lot of steps in that direction it will take time.

China is not going to sit and wait(But tbf they're alr vastly outclassing us in terms of 5th gens(they have 500+ j20s alr) and are 5 times our economic size) and are also outpacing the US as well)

Might be something taken with a lot of vision for the future but could also backfire hard if the FCAS goes though anymore issues.

Thing is, our russian partnerships are now practically outdated in airforce. Russians are not making new platforms. Even their airframes are stuck in Su-27 design loop. Atleast for the time being. They are extremely relevant to India for upkeep of its existing platform and for specific capabilities. But they have since early 2000s failed to develop new radars, new long range a2a missiles and so on. We have indigenous capabilities meeting or exceeding Russians (FC radars, seeker, rocket motors, Electro optic sensors etc).

What we need and what russia never had and could not develop was avionics, sensor fusion, fifth and above gen engine and network centric warfare. We did not leave FGFA just because we did not get our share of work, we left because it did not meet the expectations of a fifth gen fighter. Notable, till today, Su-57 is not really a competent fifth gen fighter. It lacks too many things like sensor fusion, fifth gen radar and even engine with proper IR stealthy.

From Russia, the best we need right now is Tu-160Ms. Those birds can and should be our airborne mobile anti surface vessle arm of Indian Navy. A global supersonic bomber squad that can wipe out any naval flotialla from vast distances using air launched hypersonic cruise missiles. On Airforcefront we have partly closed network centric warfare, some avionics on our own and we will still need a partner to close gaps in engine and info fusion. Something right now only france can provide.

The English bloc right now is saturated. They had earlier made overtures to us but we did not respond. Now italians and japanese have thrown their hats. India does not have a place to join them. Besides, in terms of pure capability, I trust french more. Unlike brits who have not build a complete plane since Harrier in 90s, French have been constantly working to keep its aero-space skills abreast to the current latest. Rafale is the greatest one out their in 4.5 gen fighter. In the whole marry bunch of Japan, Italy and UK, none have actually designed entire fighter jet since ages.

Lastly, unlike Russia, France has very good reasons to complete FACS. It has already skipped fifth generation and it is going to sixth one straight away. It has seen a massive success of Rafale lately after early hick ups. And Dessault is flush with all the order money. So no doubt, it will try its hardest to complete FACS and will make FACS competitive. It sees money to be made. Thats why this one can work. France wants and is capable of making jets. India wants to absorb knowledge and get jets. It can do so.

 

[Saaho]

This is a horrible mistake. France is a horrible partner. India is going to be milked so bad that it would make Russia look like a saint. Modi just keeps making disastrous decisions one after another. BJP needs to go!!! They've had power for too long.

Dont buy anything from anywhere, open your *censored* and hope that enemy uses lube.

Fukken Baniya mentality.

 

[Saaho]

France didn't adjust with Germany, then it won't adjust with India either bcoz small EU nations have different geography, geopolitics, economy, need, different than Asia/India.

When DRDO has made RAM, RAS, etc, working on DEW, TVC, etc then we don't need full airframe of FCAS/GCAP, just the engine & some components.

AMCA is not the end of combat jet design, but future jet design has to start today if not already started bcoz it takes 15-20 years. So if ADA won't put effort then PPP must.

3 decades have passed since IT boom, now AI started impacting jobs.
Almost 9000 AICTE approved tech colleges.
23 IITs with 18,000+ seats.
26 IIITs with 11,000+ seats.
31 NITs with 25,000+ seats.
The only way out is to have a good industrial ecosystem & generate revenue for R&D by making exportable products & services in every domain - automobile, appliances, electronics, all types of machines, etc.

Dude, lets face it. We have NOT delivered a SINGLE modern jet properly since ... forever.

Tejas was conceived in 80s. It remains incomplete till date.
Heck. A trainer jet. So called IJT Sitara or Yasha or whatever, concieved in 90s is yet to complete its development.

I think at some point of time we need to admit it. We do not have what it takes to fully develop a jet fighter or a military jet. I think working with a partner in the entire development process will give us how a bloody modern jet is researched and produced.

 

[Saaho]

However given we also literally summarily dismissed UK's proposal to join the GCAP as the terms were suspiciously like what we encountered in the PAKFA / FGFA project , I wonder what will le Francais offer which will be different.

No. We dismissed UK because brits have not built any jet recently and lets face it. They are brits. GCAP does not have one partner that has built a 4th gen fighter.

 

[_Anonymous_]

No. We dismissed UK because brits have not built any jet recently and lets face it. They are brits. GCAP does not have one partner that has built a 4th gen fighter.

We dismissed them coz they wanted us to handle the chore of testing components sub components etc especially the S/w part . There was no learnings for us . We'd have been a glorified cyber coolie in the entire project.

Who do you think was part of the Eurofighter consortium ? Who do you think was also lead sub contractor for the F-35 project ?

The Japanese have had some experience in designing state of the art FAs. The Mitsubishi F-2 & prior to that the F-1 were Japanese products in collaboration with the US .

The F-X program was meant to kickstart their 6th Gen FA project before they concluded a JV with UK & Italy.

 

[Speedster1]

However given we also literally summarily dismissed UK's proposal to join the GCAP as the terms were suspiciously like what we encountered in the PAKFA / FGFA project , I wonder what will le Francais offer which will be different.

The biggest draw for France is India's scale and cost reduction potential which is greater than all the other Eurozone countries.

I'd expect any FCAS contract to follow the same template as that for the 114 Rafale currently under negotiation. Tier 2/3 suppliers could be chosen on a competitive basis from either country.

If the 120kN TF engine prog eventually yields a 140kN variant, then it would the perfect fit for a SCAF derived jet than anything else. India will need to bargain effectively w/France to get the best possible RoI though.

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

Dude, lets face it. We have NOT delivered a SINGLE modern jet properly since ... forever.

Tejas was conceived in 80s. It remains incomplete till date.
Heck. A trainer jet. So called IJT Sitara or Yasha or whatever, concieved in 90s is yet to complete its development.

I think at some point of time we need to admit it. We do not have what it takes to fully develop a jet fighter or a military jet. I think working with a partner in the entire development process will give us how a bloody modern jet is researched and produced.

What it takes?.... Time & result oriented management, attitude of global competitor, leader/producer, not just consumer/lagger.

At present, 54,000+ students pass out EVERY YEAR in 80 top tier colleges of IITs, IIITs & NITs.
Since 2000 AD, estimated 5,00,000 people must have passed out.

Human DNA & potential same everywhere, NRIs succeed well becoming CEOs & top engineers & managers abroad, so this is clearly a national management & relaxed & over-optimistic attitude problem in GoI/MoD/DoD but where exactly we don't know.

In every office we see some corrupt people, some people disturbing others. Our most populous nation has pushed into system many procrastinators, discouragers, saboteurs, unqualified, inadequately qualified, inappropriately qualified people, who need to be given re-assignment or retirement. Due to such domestic people, it took us 1000 years to free ourselves from slavery of fraction of foreign people.

 

[Saaho]

What it takes?.... Time & result oriented management, attitude of global competitor, leader/producer, not just consumer/lagger.

At present, 54,000+ students pass out EVERY YEAR in 80 top tier colleges of IITs, IIITs & NITs.
Since 2000 AD, estimated 5,00,000 people must have passed out.

I am a graduate of IIT-D. And no. That is not enough to straight forward jump to building a 6th gen fighter. Many folks in Tejas and in HAL are graduates of these kind of institutions because in 70s-80s and 90s that was the only game in the town. And we know how well their ab-initio project go.

IAF is in crisis. And part of the reason is this Atma-Hatya/Atma-Nirbhar Bharat mentality. We have seen it again and again. In tanks, in jets, in artillery and so on. Heck even in small firearms.

You need to absorb the technology before leap froging the world. Whenever we did that, we did well. In space research we got seed tech from Russia and we did well. In strategic platforms like nuclear sub, we again got the needed tech to unblock us from Russia and we did well.

Our PSUs and private players also need to learn the right project management skills for a front line fighter jet development. Joining france in FCAS will give it both.

You are needlessly romanticising these institutions for what they are not. They are excellent undergrad colleges, decent post grad ones but research there is not the top of the world. When I was there, I used to work with CARE (Center for Advanced Research in Electronics) and one project that was getting a lot of funding was sonar array. It was decent work but not really path breaking. Nothing I will call next gen.

I myself worked with a prof who got funding from ARC in electronics systems to develop cyber and counter cyber tools. Needless to say not one tool of caliber of even Ghidra (RE tool) came out of it.

If you tell me these folks can develop sixth gen system of systems architecture without working with someone like Dassault, I can only laugh at you.

Human DNA & potential same everywhere, NRIs succeed well becoming CEOs & top engineers & managers abroad, so this is clearly a national management & relaxed & over-optimistic attitude problem in GoI/MoD/DoD but where exactly we don't know.

In every office we see some corrupt people, some people disturbing others. Our most populous nation has pushed into system many procrastinators, discouragers, saboteurs, unqualified, inadequately qualified, inappropriately qualified people, who need to be given re-assignment or retirement. Due to such domestic people, it took us 1000 years to free ourselves from slavery of fraction of foreign people.

As I said, seed technology and know how is needed. When we provided it, the organizations did well. ISRO comes to mind. When we denied it, we get HF-24 Marut, Tejas, Arjun, INSAS etc. You become great at something by doing apprenticeship first. Or you start by lagging and then you catch up. Unfortunately, we do not have that luxury anymore.

 

[Saaho]

We dismissed them coz they wanted us to handle the chore of testing components sub components etc especially the S/w part . There was no learnings for us . We'd have been a glorified cyber coolie in the entire project.

Who do you think was part of the Eurofighter consortium ? Who do you think was also lead sub contractor for the F-35 project ?

The Japanese have had some experience in designing state of the art FAs. The Mitsubishi F-2 & prior to that the F-1 were Japanese products in collaboration with the US .

The F-X program was meant to kickstart their 6th Gen FA project before they concluded a JV with UK & Italy.

Dude, Eurofighter was a consortium based effort and a messs. It is often called Eurofailure for a reason. Major being a mess of beaurocratic nightmare. One reason Eurofighter still worked to the extant it did was because Airbus was involved. For GCAP, this time, there is no Airbus. May be they will join later.
And for India there was additional mess. Eurofailure Typhoon has several American components that will require clearance from US senate due to ITAR. And likely, it will again have american components. Indian MoD babu saw the writing on the wall and decided not to join. And that was good. It is one more Eurofighter in making. It will be decent in technology (provided Airbus joins as well), it will be a beaurocratic nightmare and it will have an additional remote control in washington.


France on the other hand has the only fully ITAR/EAR free western aviation pipeline on the planet and they WANT to keep it that way. It is useful because we will work with france and sign favourable technology sharing agreements unlike dealing with a hostile US. We will get a frontseat in development. Workshare of drones likely (because that can be aligned with our CATS program) and engine tech IPR license and some degree of tech transfer and so on. And most important, we will get a plane that works without GE being a dick that it is.

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

I am a graduate of IIT-D. And no. That is not enough to straight forward jump to building a 6th gen fighter. Many folks in Tejas and in HAL are graduates of these kind of institutions because in 70s-80s and 90s that was the only game in the town. And we know how well their ab-initio project go.

IAF is in crisis. And part of the reason is this Atma-Hatya/Atma-Nirbhar Bharat mentality. We have seen it again and again. In tanks, in jets, in artillery and so on. Heck even in small firearms.

You need to absorb the technology before leap froging the world. Whenever we did that, we did well. In space research we got seed tech from Russia and we did well. In strategic platforms like nuclear sub, we again got the needed tech to unblock us from Russia and we did well.

Our PSUs and private players also need to learn the right project management skills for a front line fighter jet development. Joining france in FCAS will give it both.

You are needlessly romanticising these institutions for what they are not. They are excellent undergrad colleges, decent post grad ones but research there is not the top of the world. When I was there, I used to work with CARE (Center for Advanced Research in Electronics) and one project that was getting a lot of funding was sonar array. It was decent work but not really path breaking. Nothing I will call next gen.

I myself worked with a prof who got funding from ARC in electronics systems to develop cyber and counter cyber tools. Needless to say not one tool of caliber of even Ghidra (RE tool) came out of it.

If you tell me these folks can develop sixth gen system of systems architecture without working with someone like Dassault, I can only laugh at you.


As I said, seed technology and know how is needed. When we provided it, the organizations did well. ISRO comes to mind. When we denied it, we get HF-24 Marut, Tejas, Arjun, INSAS etc. You become great at something by doing apprenticeship first. Or you start by lagging and then you catch up. Unfortunately, we do not have that luxury anymore.

It doesn't look like you understood me even after i wrote straight in short.
Like i said, DRDO has made RAM, RAS,working on DEW, TVC, etc. Engine i can understand is tough nut to crack, but before you conclude that no group of Indian techies is capable of making 6gen airframe, you must explain point wise what component exactly is not possible.

I'm not glorifying or 'romanticizing' these institutions but questioning them. What would 5,00,000 grads out of these top tier colleges do today?
Like Skyroot is the biggest Indian Space startup, we need a PPP for jets also.
Bad management in PSUs, MoD is the problem.
"Aatm Nirbharta"/Self-reliance is a push to remove the 100% import culture. It doesn't stop any type of collaborations.

You have your experience of coming across of set of people whom you found incompetent, doesn't mean that all Indian techies are incompetent. Many capable people don't get opportunity due to bad management.
We can have a con-call on X/Twitter to discuss if you like.

 

[Saaho]

Like Skyroot is the biggest Indian Space startup, we need a PPP for jets also.
Bad management in PSUs, MoD is the problem.
"Aatm Nirbharta"/Self-reliance is a push to remove the 100% import culture. It doesn't stop any type of collaborations.

Skyroot had a technology injection from ISRO which developed on the springboard given by the early tech transfer that helped SLV-3 development: The CENS (french again) tech transfer of sounding rockets. PPP is not a magic bullet. Our history is filled with nothing but failed PPPs.

Problem is, Sixth gen is a brand new research and India does not have even Gen 5 and Gen 4.5 stuff fully mastered. Working with France is prudent given our history with them.

We basically need a tech injection of sorts. Like we got in ISRO. Like Bhaba got for our nuclear program and so on. Look at Turd-key. Those idiots have a much better aero space industry than India because they got the much needed tech from working with west being a NATO member.

Their Hurjet is already flying and looking for customers. Their K'aan, though a stupid design and equally stupid development has basic aircraft locked down. Their Kelijelima is more or less complete with BVR capability from a drone and not to mention, ability to land on carriers/cruisers. The reason is they did not have to learn each thing by bitter experience.

I highly doubt our private players can develop a sixth gen fighter out of nothing. Even 4th gen is a stretch. Its once more Tejas trap. And honestly, repeating the same again will be sign of stupidity.