ADA AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft

[vstol Jockey]

That's not growth potential though, that's basically a whole new engine with a new core. Generally growth potential is just 5% at best using the same core, enough to compensate for any rise in weight during upgrades. I doubt the US will give us ADVENT tech for $2B.

In any case, the F414 family is for life. From the day the aircraft rolls out of the factory to the day it is phased out, we can use the same engine. On the LCA with 98KN engine, the hot parts will need replacement only after 22 years at 180 hours per year. That's easily over 15000 TAC.

The numbers could be real. The F119, made in the 80s, has a 4325 TCY for hot parts and 8650 for cold parts. Which means we could be talking about a 30000 TAC for the F414's cold parts too. That's basically 40+ years of service before the first cold parts overhaul.

If the airframes are designed properly compared to the F414's baseline prediction, which would mean less TAC per sortie, then we could see a further boost in overhaul intervals. The new F414 is a step up from the F119/F135 family anyway. I believe the F135's cold parts TAC is 9400 hours. So it's not as impressive as the numbers thrown around for F414. GE likely has the best engine tech in the world today.

Also, I don't think AMCA Mk1 will use the EPE. They are more than likely to use the 98KN version until the new engine is developed and replaced during the airframe's overhaul. The old engines can then be used on the TEDBF.

Extensive use of mid-air refuelling will also improve TAC significantly.

Do you want me to design an engine??

Changing the material of a core and redisigning a new core are two very different things. The present F414 will need to have slightly higher airflow and much higher core temperatures to get to 142KN. It does not involve any major redisign accept for changing the airflow and pressure ratios. A CMC core will allow them to go to as high as 2000*C temp. This is what they did to increase the thrust from 98Kn to 116KN. This 116KN limit is due to the fact that SH F-18 intakes can support a maximum airflow of 84kgs/sec only. So this restriction of 116KN. Otherwise the same engine can hit 128KN anyday with just increase in airflow thru higher fan speed.

 

[Arpuism]

Changing the material of a core and redisigning a new core are two very different things.

That depends on the extend of changes. Material selection is itself part of design.

The present F414 will need to have slightly higher airflow and much higher core temperatures to get to 142KN. It does not involve any major redisign accept for changing the airflow and pressure ratios. A CMC core will allow them to go to as high as 2000*C temp.

This will require extensive testing and involvement of OEM. Essentially this is a redesign. What we have asked is 30% growth with minor tweaks and which we should be able to do by ourselves without depending on our co development partner.

 

[vstol Jockey]

That depends on the extend of changes. Material selection is itself part of design.

This will require extensive testing and involvement of OEM. Essentially this is a redesign. What we have asked is 30% growth with minor tweaks and which we should be able to do by ourselves without depending on our co development partner.

Please go thru the jet engine thrust equation and read it carefully. You will understand what Imeant by increasing the core temperatures and airflow and it effects the thrust.

General Thrust Equation

you will need minimum changes if you are able to increase the mass flow and also increase the exit velocity within the same engine. But any of the parameters is kept same while the other is varied, you will need a new design.
Take for example the LEAP engine and how its core is used in fighter engines as well while also being used in extremely high bypass engines for commercial aviation.

 

[randomradio]

M2000 is not getting engine upgrade bcoz the upgraded engine is not available and for jaguar we did try it but the cost came out to be exorbitant. Similarly we wanted item 30 engine for MKI upgrade. Had that been available we would have already started its upgrade. You may even watch interview of Program Director of Tedbf. He has mentioned that even Tedbf will get engine upgrade with the advanced engine we are gonna co develop. The growth potential will be for AMCA as well as future unmanned aerial systems and elsewhere we want. Tech is going to change very fast in near future due to onset of new Sino-US Cold War.

M2000 is not getting a new engine because the IAF officially said the current engine is enough.

TEDBF doesn't need growth, the same engine as what will go on AMCA will be sufficient.

Wrong. F 16 was initially conceptualised & designed as low cost air superiority fighter only and later evolved into multirole fighter. MKI is also not pure air superiority fighter but was developed as multirole fighter on lines of F 15E. Its latest batch even fires Brahmos. Rafale is multirole fighter and primarily bought for SEAD/DEAD + nuclear delivery role. Similarly FGFA AMCA all are multirole fighters.
We dont go for separate air superiority fighter.

The F-16 was a dog fighter, not air superiority.

All our purchases are air superiority fighters, but with a secondary A2G capability. The primary role is still AS.

Dude, you only argue for the sake of arguing. So I'm giving up.

 

[Arpuism]

M2000 is not getting a new engine because the IAF officially said the current engine is enough.

When the option is not available you dont go for more advance updates thats when engine thrust remains enough.

TEDBF doesn't need growth, the same engine as what will go on AMCA will be sufficient.

So you want to contradict Program Director of Tedbf??

The F-16 was a dog fighter, not air superiority.

All our purchases are air superiority fighters, but with a secondary A2G capability. The primary role is still AS.

Dude, you only argue for the sake of arguing. So I'm giving up.

Yes its better coz you dont know a thing. You better stick to your Rafale dalali which is your expertise.

 

[randomradio]

Changing the material of a core and redisigning a new core are two very different things. The present F414 will need to have slightly higher airflow and much higher core temperatures to get to 142KN. It does not involve any major redisign accept for changing the airflow and pressure ratios. A CMC core will allow them to go to as high as 2000*C temp. This is what they did to increase the thrust from 98Kn to 116KN. This 116KN limit is due to the fact that SH F-18 intakes can support a maximum airflow of 84kgs/sec only. So this restriction of 116KN. Otherwise the same engine can hit 128KN anyday with just increase in airflow thru higher fan speed.

I think this will come at the cost of reliability and service life.

The EDE to EPE already sees a drop from 4000 hours to 2000 hours. Bumping it to 128KN could reduce it further to 1000 hours or even less. That's not worth the cost. I doubt the IAF will allow such massive losses just for additional thrust, so the growth will have to come with better materials.

AMCA's published requirement is 2000K though. So 1700+*C. I highly doubt a CMC core will be sold to India.

When the option is not available you dont go for more advance updates thats when engine thrust remains enough like they are not going for AESA.

So you want to contradict Program Director of Tedbf??

Man you dont know a thing.

And how is that acheived??

 

[Arpuism]

Please go thru the jet engine thrust equation and read it carefully. You will understand what Imeant by increasing the core temperatures and airflow and it effects the thrust.
General Thrust Equation you will need minimum changes if you are able to increase the mass flow and also increase the exit velocity within the same engine. But any of the parameters is kept same while the other is varied, you will need a new design.
Take for example the LEAP engine and how its core is used in fighter engines as well while also being used in extremely high bypass engines for commercial aviation.

And what are those minor changes??

 

[vstol Jockey]

AMCA's published requirement is 2000K though. So 1700+*C. I highly doubt a CMC core will be sold to India.

They will agree to sell the engine with CMC core but will not transfer the tech for making a CMC core.

And what are those minor changes??

I have read a few search papers from GE itself which made these claims that by increasing the size of the fan and the core temperatures, this engine can produce upto 142 KN. So they have done the study already and maybe looking for a suitable platform/program to develop this engine further. Also read the globalsecurity page for F414.
Recognizing that the F/A-18E/F will assume new roles and missions over its lifetime, as well as face an uncertain and ever changing threat environment, GE designed the F414 with thrust growth potential to meet these anticipated needs. Already envisioned for the F414's first growth step was a 10 percent thrust increase that could be available by 2005. Increased performance would be achieved with an improved core having an all blisk compressor and higher temperature turbine alloys to withstand a modest temperature increase. The second growth step would provide 15 percent more thrust than the initial F414 - about 25,000 pounds of thrust (or roughly 111 kilo- Newtons ). This engine would use the improved Step A core with a larger fan and low-pressure turbine. It would still fit within the existing F/A-18E/F engine installation, however.

The final growth step - Step C - would produce an engine with 30 percent more thrust than the F414 - just under 29,000 pounds, or about 128 kilo- Newtons. This thrust level is nearly equal to the F110 Increased Performance Engine. To reach this impressive thrust level will demand further airflow growth from the fan, a modest temperature increase, a new two-stage low pressure turbine and a new afterburner.

F414

www.globalsecurity.org

 

[vstol Jockey]

They will agree to sell the engine with CMC core but will not transfer the tech for making a CMC core.

I have read a few search papers from GE itself which made these claims that by increasing the size of the fan and the core temperatures, this engine can produce upto 142 KN. So they have done the study already and maybe looking for a suitable platform/program to develop this engine further. Also read the globalsecurity page for F414.
Recognizing that the F/A-18E/F will assume new roles and missions over its lifetime, as well as face an uncertain and ever changing threat environment, GE designed the F414 with thrust growth potential to meet these anticipated needs. Already envisioned for the F414's first growth step was a 10 percent thrust increase that could be available by 2005. Increased performance would be achieved with an improved core having an all blisk compressor and higher temperature turbine alloys to withstand a modest temperature increase. The second growth step would provide 15 percent more thrust than the initial F414 - about 25,000 pounds of thrust (or roughly 111 kilo- Newtons ). This engine would use the improved Step A core with a larger fan and low-pressure turbine. It would still fit within the existing F/A-18E/F engine installation, however.

The final growth step - Step C - would produce an engine with 30 percent more thrust than the F414 - just under 29,000 pounds, or about 128 kilo- Newtons. This thrust level is nearly equal to the F110 Increased Performance Engine. To reach this impressive thrust level will demand further airflow growth from the fan, a modest temperature increase, a new two-stage low pressure turbine and a new afterburner.

F414

www.globalsecurity.org

In this they have completed the step-2 and already hit 116KN instead of 111KN. The third step is also with the same core and increased size fan and bigger and better afterburner. The 142KN thrust will need the CMC core.

 

[Arpuism]

In this they have completed the step-2 and already hit 116KN instead of 111KN. The third step is also with the same core and increased size fan and bigger and better afterburner. The 142KN thrust will need the CMC core.

This is where the changes dont remain minor. The global security page you quoted itself says "The Final Growth Step-C" would produce an engine with 30 percent more thrust than the F414 - just under 29,000 pounds, or about 128 kilo- Newtons. Afterwards the changes to the core will be major redesign of the engine core as you said CMC core. It will not remain F414 thats why the final step.

They will agree to sell the engine with CMC core but will not transfer the tech for making a CMC core.

We should insist to co-develop engine with CMC core with IP because that is what we want.

 

[vstol Jockey]

This is where the changes dont remain minor. The global security page you quoted itself says "The Final Growth Step-C" would produce an engine with 30 percent more thrust than the F414 - just under 29,000 pounds, or about 128 kilo- Newtons. Afterwards the changes to the core will be major redesign of the engine core as you said CMC core. It will not remain F414 thats why the final step.

This is what I had maintained from the very begining that this engine is presently fit to hit 128KN with present core. But it has ability to hit 142KN as well with CMC core which will need changes to fan, compressor and core. But the overall size of the engine may not change much. Not even 10%.
We were talking of growth potential here and that is why I brought in the subject of CMC core. In 2015, F414 was tested with CMC components and they had found outstanding tollerance to heat going upto over 2000*C in over 500 cycles test.

 

[randomradio]

They will agree to sell the engine with CMC core but will not transfer the tech for making a CMC core.

Major sticking point that.

 

[Arpuism]

We were talking of growth potential here and that is why I brought in the subject of CMC core.

That is not growth potential in practical sense. Upto 128 kN you can say growth potential. But the engine derived by mating CMC core with F414 can be said to have growth potential upto 142 kN or more. This engine can be co developed with GE.

 

[Hydra]

That is not growth potential in practical sense. Upto 128 kN you can say growth potential. But the engine derived by mating CMC core with F414 can be said to have growth potential upto 142 kN or more. This engine can be co developed with GE.

Can be co developed, tell me why would GE agree for that?

 

[vstol Jockey]

Major sticking point that.

I ds not think that they will refuse as this engine can do wonders for old F-16s which are in stotrage in Dessrt in USA. They need someone to fund the develiopment.

That is not growth potential in practical sense. Upto 128 kN you can say growth potential. But the engine derived by mating CMC core with F414 can be said to have growth potential upto 142 kN or more. This engine can be co developed with GE.

Upto 128KN is not growth potential as this engine can do it with present core with just a change to higher fan size. Please remeber the jet engine equation which I told you and posted. But what happens when airflow increases? You need sufficient difference between successive stages of the HP compressor blades and you need higher compression ratios or pressure ratios to withstand that kind of increase in airflow. You may need to increase the difference between the HP compressor stages to accommodate that kind of increase in higher airlow. And that can increase the length of the engine and also its Afterburner section. But what CMC does is that it reduces the space by being shorter with much reduced centrifugal force and therefore obviate the need to elongate the engine as they are very light in weight and have much smaller hub area which reduces the need to increase the size of fan and HP compressor.
It will surely be a compromise between the higher thurst derivative and the present size but not much. So I call it as the growth potential. BTW do you know that F414 now has one fan stage and one HP compressor stage less Than original F414?

Can be co developed, tell me why would GE agree for that?

This engine developed for Indian future fighter programs can have over 1500 of them being sold and that is a reason good enough for GE to develop it and sell it to India as they have tested the tech in 2015 and brought it to TRL-5 level at that time. Taking it to TRL-9 is just a small step.

 

[Arpuism]

Upto 128KN is not growth potential as this engine can do it with present core with just a change to higher fan size.

Lets c if your growth potential definition matches with what decision makers think.

 

[Hydra]

This engine developed for Indian future fighter programs can have over 1500 of them being sold and that is a reason good enough for GE to develop it and sell it to India as they have tested the tech in 2015 and brought it to TRL-5 level at that time. Taking it to TRL-9 is just a small step.

Yeas sir, their engine has tremendous opportunity in india if it developed with our specs. But GE is very well capable of doing the development by their own, they require zero technical input from us, unlike RR they arent required money from abroad to survive too, unlike UK the US government is hesitant to share nich technology with others. So i see zero chance that GE will agree for joint development, they may develop it for us, but not going to involve india in that development process.

 

[Lolwa]

Yeas sir, their engine has tremendous opportunity in india if it developed with our specs. But GE is very well capable of doing the development by their own, they require zero technical input from us, unlike RR they arent required money from abroad to survive too, unlike UK the US government is hesitant to share nich technology with others. So i see zero chance that GE will agree for joint development, they may develop it for us, but not going to involve india in that development process.

It will go similar to how the UAE did the f-16blk-60

 

[randomradio]

Yeas sir, their engine has tremendous opportunity in india if it developed with our specs. But GE is very well capable of doing the development by their own, they require zero technical input from us, unlike RR they arent required money from abroad to survive too, unlike UK the US government is hesitant to share nich technology with others. So i see zero chance that GE will agree for joint development, they may develop it for us, but not going to involve india in that development process.

The engine deal is for them to develop their share independently, but share the knowledge with us.

 

[vstol Jockey]

Yeas sir, their engine has tremendous opportunity in india if it developed with our specs. But GE is very well capable of doing the development by their own, they require zero technical input from us, unlike RR they arent required money from abroad to survive too, unlike UK the US government is hesitant to share nich technology with others. So i see zero chance that GE will agree for joint development, they may develop it for us, but not going to involve india in that development process.

MAYBE, a 142KN engine can be used on Su-30MKI as well as the replacement of present engine.