Air Battle over Kashmir : MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16
- Thread starter Ashwin
- Start date
Just lol , and that's how Pakistan donated Bangladesh and won all war against India what ever historical photo's Indians shows its photo shop or duped with con artists
I have been thinking about this.statement
And what I feel is this
I think that just as Indian Army has achieved Moral Ascendency over PA on LOC , Similarly IAF has done.so NOT just because of One off Balakot , but because
Of a Chain of Events Post Feb 27
Balakot is.the " Name " given to activities post Feb 27
IAF.did Not sit quiet after Feb 27
There have been reports of unofficial attacks by OSINT accounts
There have been Large Scale CAPs
And air exercises close to the border simulating another conflict
If you remember @Falcon Sir had said that Indian UAV s are freely loitering and providing Targeting Information INSIDE PoK , AND that PAF stays well.AWAY from the LOC
PAF is unable to keep Pace with these Relentless Sorties and exercises and Show of strength
Indians and their fantasies ...
So.... Indian UAV are freely roaming in our Azad Kashmir ?
Indians and their fantasies ...
So.... Indian UAV are freely roaming in our Azad Kashmir ?
Your point being?
Indians and their fantasies ...
So.... Indian UAV are freely roaming in our Azad Kashmir ?
PAF stays Well AWAY from LOC because
Of the FEAR of IAF
IAF has achieved moral ascendancy over
PAF
And keep gloating over your Foolish behaviour of Feb 27
Wasted 6 Amraams
Wasted 11 Bombs
Lost F 16
Showed all your tricks , Tactics , Technologies , Weapons , and above all
Incompetencies
There will be Conflict soon
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The PAF hasn't been capable of fighting the IAF since the 90s.
During Kargil they used the excuse of it being the PA's war, and during Balakot all they could do was come up with their own stories, and hell, even their air chief doesn't come up on TV to corroborate their own story. So that tells one all they needed to know.
The only thing which is relevant is their F16 rest there is nothing to discuss about PAF. Better prepare for NCW wrt to China along with their j10's others and radars on ground, and Pakistan will be covered automatically.
Objectively speaking:
IAF: claimed WC Abhi Shot down an F16 and presented Radar data to support the claim which has not been verified as there is no conclusive wreckage found. It's a claim that some believe and some don't around the world.
PAF: Claimed two kills - One Mig21Bison of WC Abhinandan which was verified and another MKI which has not been verified as there is no conclusive wreckage found. It's a claim that some believe some don't around the world.
In the additional kill claims
A) 2nd pilot that DG ISPR claimed they had in possession which was hushed down pretty fast. Given ISPR's credibility as an organization across the Kargil, it is clear that lying is foundational to the organization. It raises the suspicion that the Second pilot is from a single-engine platform that fell on the Pakistani side. Since Pakistan hushed the second pilot in CMH hospital, the speculation is that the pilot might have been of a PAF aircraft.
B) MKI kill: In India, it is impossible to even hide a casualty in a riot, forget trying to hide two pilots being shot down and an entire MKI from CAG audit. So the claim that ISPR made about MKI to me remains absolutely ludicrous.
In the end you are left with One confirmed kill by the PAF of Mig21 and 1 claim by PAF and IAF.
IAF: claimed WC Abhi Shot down an F16 and presented Radar data to support the claim which has not been verified as there is no conclusive wreckage found. It's a claim that some believe and some don't around the world.
PAF: Claimed two kills - One Mig21Bison of WC Abhinandan which was verified and another MKI which has not been verified as there is no conclusive wreckage found. It's a claim that some believe some don't around the world.
In the additional kill claims
A) 2nd pilot that DG ISPR claimed they had in possession which was hushed down pretty fast. Given ISPR's credibility as an organization across the Kargil, it is clear that lying is foundational to the organization. It raises the suspicion that the Second pilot is from a single-engine platform that fell on the Pakistani side. Since Pakistan hushed the second pilot in CMH hospital, the speculation is that the pilot might have been of a PAF aircraft.
B) MKI kill: In India, it is impossible to even hide a casualty in a riot, forget trying to hide two pilots being shot down and an entire MKI from CAG audit. So the claim that ISPR made about MKI to me remains absolutely ludicrous.
In the end you are left with One confirmed kill by the PAF of Mig21 and 1 claim by PAF and IAF.
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There was no Pakistani aircraft within 150 kms of our strike package, says former IAF Chief on Balakot airstrike | India News - Times of India
When IAF attacked ,PAF was sleeping
When PAF attacked , IAF responded and foiled their attacks and Made them RETREAT
When IAF attacked ,PAF was sleeping
When PAF attacked , IAF responded and foiled their attacks and Made them RETREAT
None of these are actually important.
The question is whether objectives were achieved. Both forces were on hair-trigger alert. IAF successfully bombed Balakot and two other locations, while PAF failed to even attack their primary objectives, while failing to hit the secondary objectives that they did eventually attack.
Another point to consider is the IAF used rather outdated air to air missiles like the RVV-AE (30 years) and R-73E (40 years), while the PAF used slightly more modern AAMs like the C5s (20 years), but the IAF fired only 1 40-year old missile and claimed a kill, while the PAF fired as many as 7 AMRAAMs that we know of and managed to get only 1 kill, against an aircraft that was defenceless to AMRAAMs in the first place.
The entire problem, especially among the foreign media, wrt the Indian claim regarding the F16 shoot down came about as a result of severe arrogance within IAF HQ.
The IAF perhaps believed that they had a divine right to have their words taken at face value across the world. They simply brushed over the fact that there was a lack of corroborating evidence and as such their claims could and would definitely be challenged. They just made a single statement without any proof, and thus left the battle for public perception uncontested.
After that decision, they were genuinely surprised that Pakistan filled up that void through a massive campaign of misinformation and careful manipulation of foreign press to produce reports favourable to them. In the absence of an Indian narrative, the entire attention of the world shifted to the Pakistani narrative, and IAF's claim was made to look like a donkey high on grass.
Pakistanis were able to seize the initiative due to this initial screw up. Then to their horror, IAF realized that nobody outside was buying their one line word of God. They panicked and put on that press conference with the radar imagery. But by then the narrative was firmly with Pakistan, and media behind them, given that IAF had refused for weeks to present any evidence.
It would be months before the truth would come out. But by then the public attention had already moved on. And nobody bothered to Know the reality. As such for a large number of people globally, the PAF kicked the face in of the IAF. And perception matters in this world.
If Perception warfare is Won by lies and falsehoods like Denying F 16 loss And Claiming Su 30 kill , then PAF deserves many more such victories
What really matters is your capability Enhancement and lessons learnt
In a Limited Area Limited period War
They will make claims of victory
So we have to not only defeat them
Both in the battlefield and on the IW field
PAF commemorates 'resounding victory' in Operation Swift Retort - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
An enemy who lives in Denial and Delusion
Is the Best Enemy
An enemy who lives in Denial and Delusion
Is the Best Enemy
The scale of retaliation by IAF in Balakot, in my opinion, was minuscule. If you want to deliver a message, India's operations scale should have been much higher.
Next; IAF needs to bring back Mig21Bisons from the Forward bases and deploy Mig29UPGs/MKI/M2K's out there. Knowingly fielding an aircraft that you know will be outgunned and relying just on superior training is not a strategy for success. Finally BDA's should no longer be a log sheet by pilots but actual FLIR footage.
Finally, you have verbal diarrhea of politicians in this dispensation, a distinguishing feature of the Modi government who have to butt head in every effin topic which they have no clue of commenting on damage assessment.
When you have your own resources working against your narrative, there is very little that ISPR needs to do.
I don't think there is anything more important in evaluating air combat than validating claims of each side, despite what your opinion might be.
As far as objectives, IAF doesn't have BDA like say USAF does, and given I am not fighting an election in India, I have no qualms enquiring the actual damage and casualty of the IAF raid. And before people jump on brief to the IAF, it is absolutely imperative for the IAF to actually provide the estimated human casualties, which is standard for USAF or any NATO contingent upon undertaking any air raids. There is no reason for IAF not be held to the same standard.
The "other point" you raise for India's perspective is just shameful, nothing to be proud of using old platform and old ordnance; by doing so we are pitting superior training against technology which after a threshold becomes pointless. And India: supposedly a state that is bigger, richer and has a higher defense budget than Pakistan, employing older platform and ordnance is just pathetic. Air combat is the last place where you need to boast of austerity.
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If we think carefully , this concept of
Limited Area -- Limited Period War is
Never going to be satisfying
Next time we will have to go in for
One Day Maximum strikes
If they can carry out 5000 sorties in 3 days in Gaganshakti , why not carry out at least 1800 sorties in a 24 hour period
24 hours is -- The limit after which their 3 Daddies start crying-- US , China , Saudi.
