Air Battle over Kashmir : MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16

[Milspec]

BTW here are Indian Journalist's doing ISPR's bidding

 

[Freezerdam]

The entire problem, especially among the foreign media, wrt the Indian claim regarding the F16 shoot down came about as a result of severe arrogance within IAF HQ.

The IAF perhaps believed that they had a divine right to have their words taken at face value across the world. They simply brushed over the fact that there was a lack of corroborating evidence and as such their claims could and would definitely be challenged. They just made a single statement without any proof, and thus left the battle for public perception uncontested.

After that decision, they were genuinely surprised that Pakistan filled up that void through a massive campaign of misinformation and careful manipulation of foreign press to produce reports favourable to them. In the absence of an Indian narrative, the entire attention of the world shifted to the Pakistani narrative, and IAF's claim was made to look like a donkey high on grass.

Pakistanis were able to seize the initiative due to this initial screw up. Then to their horror, IAF realized that nobody outside was buying their one line word of God. They panicked and put on that press conference with the radar imagery. But by then the narrative was firmly with Pakistan, and media behind them, given that IAF had refused for weeks to present any evidence.

It would be months before the truth would come out. But by then the public attention had already moved on. And nobody bothered to Know the reality. As such for a large number of people globally, the PAF kicked the face in of the IAF. And perception matters in this world.

Best analysis sir...Can it be a revenge of ss1 documentary what they have done now(celebration)...

 

[madrao99]

New DG ISPR Babar Iftikhar reportedly holding a press conference today at 3pm Pak time.

 

[Ashwin]

Indians and their fantasies ...
So.... Indian UAV are freely roaming in our Azad Kashmir ?

American predators roamed freely over Pakistan airspace and bombed the shit out for years.

Maybe Chinese air defence got confused ?

 

[randomradio]

The entire problem, especially among the foreign media, wrt the Indian claim regarding the F16 shoot down came about as a result of severe arrogance within IAF HQ.

The IAF perhaps believed that they had a divine right to have their words taken at face value across the world. They simply brushed over the fact that there was a lack of corroborating evidence and as such their claims could and would definitely be challenged. They just made a single statement without any proof, and thus left the battle for public perception uncontested.

After that decision, they were genuinely surprised that Pakistan filled up that void through a massive campaign of misinformation and careful manipulation of foreign press to produce reports favourable to them. In the absence of an Indian narrative, the entire attention of the world shifted to the Pakistani narrative, and IAF's claim was made to look like a donkey high on grass.

Pakistanis were able to seize the initiative due to this initial screw up. Then to their horror, IAF realized that nobody outside was buying their one line word of God. They panicked and put on that press conference with the radar imagery. But by then the narrative was firmly with Pakistan, and media behind them, given that IAF had refused for weeks to present any evidence.

It would be months before the truth would come out. But by then the public attention had already moved on. And nobody bothered to Know the reality. As such for a large number of people globally, the PAF kicked the face in of the IAF. And perception matters in this world.

I don't think it's as serious as you make it out to be. Even if perception among the masses outside Indo-Pak is that PAF beat the IAF, the perception among the civilian and military leaders around the world who know the true story is what matters. I'm sure the P5 know the whole story, and I'm sure Imran Khan is not going to lie to leaders around the world about the actual fate of the F-16. So the only downside is some loss of face during tea room gossip.

Also the IAF did not bow down to pressure from a perception battle to release proof, but it was actually pressure from our own Opposition that led to releasing of the radar images, which I believe shouldn't have been done in the first place. The IAF's current disposition has long term advantages. By not talking too much, that one line will eventually be remembered when the truth gets out. In future instances, who's gonna believe the Pakistanis, this is the world of the Internet after all and stuff you say is gonna float around for years if not decades. That one line is worth its weight in gold. The nation's motto is "Truth alone triumphs". We merely have to live up to our own motto, which the forces at least haven't yet failed at doing.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

I don't think it's as serious as you make it out to be. Even if perception among the masses outside Indo-Pak is that PAF beat the IAF, the perception among the civilian and military leaders around the world who know the true story is what matters. I'm sure the P5 know the whole story, and I'm sure Imran Khan is not going to lie to leaders around the world about the actual fate of the F-16. So the only downside is some loss of face during tea room gossip.

Also the IAF did not bow down to pressure from a perception battle to release proof, but it was actually pressure from our own Opposition that led to releasing of the radar images, which I believe shouldn't have been done in the first place. The IAF's current disposition has long term advantages. By not talking too much, that one line will eventually be remembered when the truth gets out. In future instances, who's gonna believe the Pakistanis, this is the world of the Internet after all and stuff you say is gonna float around for years if not decades. That one line is worth its weight in gold. The nation's motto is "Truth alone triumphs". We merely have to live up to our own motto, which the forces at least haven't yet failed at doing.

After all the Circus and Bombastic talk that PAF hierarchy does , they must be
Banging Tables and their Heads inside
Closed doors while taking stock of their operational Readiness

It is not easy to live with such brazen lies

 

[randomradio]

The scale of retaliation by IAF in Balakot, in my opinion, was minuscule. If you want to deliver a message, India's operations scale should have been much higher.

I agree. But I guess there was a limit to the number of aircraft that could be earmarked for such strikes. And let's not forget the longer gameplan was spoiled by Abhinandan.

Next; IAF needs to bring back Mig21Bisons from the Forward bases and deploy Mig29UPGs/MKI/M2K's out there. Knowingly fielding an aircraft that you know will be outgunned and relying just on superior training is not a strategy for success.

Mig-21s, Mig-29s and MKIs are sort of operating around the same area.

Halwara has 2 MKI squadrons, Adampur has 2 Mig-29 squadrons and Sirsa has 1 MKI squadron. All three practically overlook the border.

Finally, you have verbal diarrhea of politicians in this dispensation, a distinguishing feature of the Modi government who have to butt head in every effin topic which they have no clue of commenting on damage assessment.

When you have your own resources working against your narrative, there is very little that ISPR needs to do.

Even Modi is to blame for adding on to the mess, not just his cohorts, like that radar-cloud statement.

 

[randomradio]

I don't think there is anything more important in evaluating air combat than validating claims of each side, despite what your opinion might be.

That's part of post war assessment, which is still too early in the Indo-Pak context, since it requires IAF actually holding meetings with their PAF counterparts.

As far as objectives, IAF doesn't have BDA like say USAF does, and given I am not fighting an election in India, I have no qualms enquiring the actual damage and casualty of the IAF raid. And before people jump on brief to the IAF, it is absolutely imperative for the IAF to actually provide the estimated human casualties, which is standard for USAF or any NATO contingent upon undertaking any air raids. There is no reason for IAF not be held to the same standard.

That's not the IAF's job in this case, that's Doval's job. So any asessment of casualties should come from the NSA. If you can recall, they states these were "non-military" targets.

The "other point" you raise for India's perspective is just shameful, nothing to be proud of using old platform and old ordnance; by doing so we are pitting superior training against technology which after a threshold becomes pointless. And India: supposedly a state that is bigger, richer and has a higher defense budget than Pakistan, employing older platform and ordnance is just pathetic. Air combat is the last place where you need to boast of austerity.

I addressed this long ago. The IAF used the best available equipment they possessed during Balakot and after. The best missiles on Russian jets still continue to be R-73 and R-77. And the 2 Mirages on CAP during the skirmish were the upgraded ones with MICA.

Any updates on Russian jets are still pending, and have recently started, like the addition of Astra Mk1 (initial stages of production) and the future integration of I-Derby ER (initial stages of integration and testing) on MKI. The same with ASRAAM, it's in the beginning stages of adoption. Lucky for Pakistan, Balakot happened before the modernisation had begun.

Dunno what's so shameful about this. This has nothing to do with austerity.

 

[randomradio]

If we think carefully , this concept of
Limited Area -- Limited Period War is
Never going to be satisfying

Next time we will have to go in for
One Day Maximum strikes

If they can carry out 5000 sorties in 3 days in Gaganshakti , why not carry out at least 1800 sorties in a 24 hour period

24 hours is -- The limit after which their 3 Daddies start crying-- US , China , Saudi.

If I understand correctly what they said at the time, 5000 sorties in 3 days was actually half as much as what the IAF could have done.

Anyway, even 1800 sorties is welcome, but let's not forget that we can follow this up with limited ground manoeuvres using IBGs as well, because why the hell not? Why restrict it to an air operation alone. IN can also follow it up with some air strikes of their own on Karachi. All this can be done in a 24 hour period.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

Lucky for Pakistan, Balakot happened before the modernisation had begun.

No , Lucky for INDIA that Balakot happened

Feb 26 and 27 has only helped IAF in Further Improvement of everything and speeded up the capability enhancement

Even the Shooting down of MI 17 has now led to the Creation of Air Defence Command

 

[randomradio]

After all the Circus and Bombastic talk that PAF hierarchy does , they must be
Banging Tables and their Heads inside
Closed doors while taking stock of their operational Readiness

It is not easy to live with such brazen lies

They have a statue of Abhinandan somewhere in a museum now. I wonder if the PAF officers are gonna salute every time they walk past it. Talk about morale in front of that statue.

No , Lucky for INDIA that Balakot happened

Feb 26 and 27 has only helped IAF in Further Improvement of everything and speeded up the capability enhancement

Even the Shooting down of MI 17 has now led to the Creation of Air Defence Command

Yeah, I agree, especially the last one. We needed an independent command for air defence, especially considering we are now deploying our BMD.

 

[safriz]

Question remains that with what Abhinandan shot the Pakistani F-16?
All 4 missiles his jet carried, crashed with his jet and in Pakistan's custody and on display.

 

[safriz]

American predators roamed freely over Pakistan airspace and bombed the shit out for years.

Maybe Chinese air defence got confused ?

India aint America...

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

They have a statue of Abhinandan somewhere in a museum now. I wonder if the PAF officers are gonna salute every time they walk past it. Talk about morale in front of that statue.

Such Schizophrenia is Bad for Every Professional ie IF PAF is still a professional force

Every time A PAF pilot takes off he will wonder about the fact that If he dies , he will never get any recognition

Secondly the Air Defence Squadrons will
Wonder about all those Wasted Amraams

Falsehoods are like a Burden on your heart

Question remains that with what Abhinandan shot the Pakistani F-16?
All 4 missiles his jet carried, crashed with his jet and in Pakistan's custody and on display.

The Cowardly PAF pilots simply Jumped out of their Ejection seats on Seeing the MiG coming Close .

How Professional are you guys

 

[randomradio]

Every time A PAF pilot takes off he will wonder about the fact that If he dies , he will never get any recognition

That's a very difficult issue for any soldier to deal with. The only real reward for a soldier is being recognised for the work they do, and even that is happily denied if you are flying for the PAF or fighting for Pakistan in general.

Question remains that with what Abhinandan shot the Pakistani F-16?
All 4 missiles his jet carried, crashed with his jet and in Pakistan's custody and on display.

When will the PAF display the serial numbers?

Or at the bare minimum, explain what happened to one of the R-73's warhead?

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

That's a very difficult issue for any soldier to deal with. The only real reward for a soldier is being recognised for the work they do, and even that is happily denied if you are flying for the PAF or fighting for Pakistan in general.

Pakistan has lost 2 Brigadiers on LOC
But conveniently hidden them


Talking of Feb 27 , it was Around Evening
Last year
At this time that We got Confirmation about Wing Commander Abhinandan Captured and saw pictures of His Face bloodied

He is such a Brave Guy , those 2 days were
Nerve wracking for so many of us

WHAT ABHINANDAN MIGHT BE THINKING TODAY

 

[BlackOpsIndia]

Question remains that with what Abhinandan shot the Pakistani F-16?
All 4 missiles his jet carried, crashed with his jet and in Pakistan's custody and on display.

No they are not.

Repeating same lines won't make them true, Pakistan has not yet shown all 4 missile intact, one poor resolution grainy screenshot photo was shared so as to hide the details but that too was debunked.

Your delusions doesn't automatically become truth.

 

[Cole_phelps]

Pakistan has lost 2 Brigadiers on LOC
But conveniently hidden them


Talking of Feb 27 , it was Around Evening
Last year
At this time that We got Confirmation about Wing Commander Abhinandan Captured and saw pictures of His Face bloodied

He is such a Brave Guy , those 2 days were
Nerve wracking for so many of us

WHAT ABHINANDAN MIGHT BE THINKING TODAY

And what PA would be thinking today.

Qatal ki Raat

@_Anonymous_

 

[Sathya]

None of these are actually important.

The question is whether objectives were achieved. Both forces were on hair-trigger alert. IAF successfully bombed Balakot and two other locations, while PAF failed to even attack their primary objectives, while failing to hit the secondary objectives that they did eventually attack.

Another point to consider is the IAF used rather outdated air to air missiles like the RVV-AE (30 years) and R-73E (40 years), while the PAF used slightly more modern AAMs like the C5s (20 years), but the IAF fired only 1 40-year old missile and claimed a kill, while the PAF fired as many as 7 AMRAAMs that we know of and managed to get only 1 kill, against an aircraft that was defenceless to AMRAAMs in the first place.

Recently purchased Russian AAM is of latest generation?

 

[Sathya]

The entire problem, especially among the foreign media, wrt the Indian claim regarding the F16 shoot down came about as a result of severe arrogance within IAF HQ.

The IAF perhaps believed that they had a divine right to have their words taken at face value across the world. They simply brushed over the fact that there was a lack of corroborating evidence and as such their claims could and would definitely be challenged. They just made a single statement without any proof, and thus left the battle for public perception uncontested.

After that decision, they were genuinely surprised that Pakistan filled up that void through a massive campaign of misinformation and careful manipulation of foreign press to produce reports favourable to them. In the absence of an Indian narrative, the entire attention of the world shifted to the Pakistani narrative, and IAF's claim was made to look like a donkey high on grass.

Pakistanis were able to seize the initiative due to this initial screw up. Then to their horror, IAF realized that nobody outside was buying their one line word of God. They panicked and put on that press conference with the radar imagery. But by then the narrative was firmly with Pakistan, and media behind them, given that IAF had refused for weeks to present any evidence.

It would be months before the truth would come out. But by then the public attention had already moved on. And nobody bothered to Know the reality. As such for a large number of people globally, the PAF kicked the face in of the IAF. And perception matters in this world.

I was banking on US report to prove it for everyone.
But a correspondent for Pentagon Lara selingman screwed it up for me..

Now long wait info s get declassified.