AUKUS : US, UK and Australia forge military alliance to counter China

Extract
But the Australian prime minister also said he wasn’t at liberty at that stage to disclose to Macron that Australia would work with the US and the UK to acquire nuclear-powered submarines, because those plans had not yet been finalised and were held “in confidence”.

Keeping this kind of plan confidential from a partner with whom you have signed a strategic agreement is called duplicity.
 
Extract


Keeping this kind of plan confidential from a partner with whom you have signed a strategic agreement is called duplicity.
You have played games with defence deals many times. Including multibillion deals with India. Glad you are taking the pill. Cost escalations and going back on promises are your way of doing the business. The AUS had in their contract that they can give you the finger whenever they think. So its only fair.
 
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You have played games with defence deals many times. Including multibillion deals with India. Glad you are taking the pill. Cost escalations and going back on promises are your way of doing the business. The AUS had in their contract that they can give you the finger whenever they think. So its only fair.
when french reneged on russian deal, putin must be now :giggle: .
 
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when french reneged on russian deal, putin must be now :giggle: .
It went very well with the Russians: they were reimbursed, they wanted one BPC to be built in France and two in Russia and we insisted that two be built in France, but as they got the ToT, now they can build three. The BPC were sold to Egypt and as they were adapted to Russian helicopters, so the Russians exported helicopters to Egypt and on top of that the Russians got a free training of a crew in the handling of the BPC, in case they would build some or if the Egyptians would have to lend them some.

The Russians told us that they knew we were under pressure from NATO

When after the Charlie attacks the CDG aircraft carrier went to the Levant to carry out reprisals, the Russians offered us a formal alliance so that they can help us better achieve our goals. We could not accept, but this shows that there is no animosity between the Russians and us.
 
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It went very well with the Russians: they were reimbursed, they wanted one BPC to be built in France and two in Russia and we insisted that two be built in France, but as they got the ToT, now they can build three. The BPC were sold to Egypt and as they were adapted to Russian helicopters, so the Russians exported helicopters to Egypt and on top of that the Russians got a free training of a crew in the handling of the BPC, in case they would build some or if the Egyptians would have to lend them some.

The Russians told us that they knew we were under pressure from NATO

When after the Charlie attacks the CDG aircraft carrier went to the Levant to carry out reprisals, the Russians offered us a formal alliance so that they can help us better achieve our goals. We could not accept, but this shows that there is no animosity between the Russians and us.
Look once you renege on a deal you lose credibility. Yes there was a compromise and talks....etc but next time some one wants to buy some thing they will think twice. Bigger the deal they will expect more guarantee, then in future terms & conditions will also get more harder. Business wise it is a losing proposition for future.
 
Look once you renege on a deal you lose credibility. Yes there was a compromise and talks....etc but next time some one wants to buy some thing they will think twice. Bigger the deal they will expect more guarantee, then in future terms & conditions will also get more harder. Business wise it is a losing proposition for future.
The same for Australia.
 
Yeah, so wouldn't switching to life-of-the-ship reactors make sense? The savings will allow you to go for more subs.
No, because that's stupid.

The only reason the US are using high-enriched uranium is because they had a ton of the stuff from dismantling part of their nuclear arsenal thanks to the SALT and START treaties.

But while on paper it looks good to have reactors that will last for the life of the ship, in practice there are tons of drawbacks.
The first is that it's weapon grade uranium, so technically you could crack open the sub and use the uranium to make a bomb. That's why the whole thing is iffy from a non-proliferation point of view.
The second is that it means your reactor fuel has to maintain viable for 30-to-40 years. Because yes there's a lot of usable uranium in it, but remember how nuclear fission works: that means they'll generate a lot of neutron poison. That means that the reactor will behave very differently throughout its life. For low-enriched reactors, it's not a problem -- you can make use of the regularly scheduled overhauls (that you're gonna have to do anyway, regardless of HEU, LEU, or diesel) -- to clean up the reactor as you recharge it. But for a HEU reactor, it can be a real problem.

Note that the USA are planning to move away from HEU. Reasons being that they're nearly exhausted their surplus stockpile of the stuff, and the technical disadvantages of HEU.
It also does not express concern, as at least one expert has, about possible corrosion failures of nuclear power reactor systems that would not be inspected for three to four decades. Problems with these life-of-ship systems, which are not designed for service access, can be very costly. In 2015, welding was found to be defective in a joint in the steam supply piping of three new Virginia-class submarines. Contriving a way to replace the joint took the first submarine out of service for two years.
Using LEU allows to use the civilian nuclear infrastructure for obtaining fuel and dealing with the wastes. A positive side effect is that it therefore also helps sustain said civilian infrastructure. With HEU, you don't get that synergy.


The North Atlantic Treaty

Article 5​

The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.​
Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security .​

Article 6​

For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack:​
  • on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the territory of Turkey or on the Islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer;
  • on the forces, vessels, or aircraft of any of the Parties, when in or over these territories or any other area in Europe in which occupation forces of any of the Parties were stationed on the date when the Treaty entered into force or the Mediterranean Sea or the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer.

Article 10​

The Parties may, by unanimous agreement, invite any other European State in a position to further the principles of this Treaty and to contribute to the security of the North Atlantic area to accede to this Treaty. Any State so invited may become a Party to the Treaty by depositing its instrument of accession with the Government of the United States of America. The Government of the United States of America will inform each of the Parties of the deposit of each such instrument of accession.​

Article 12​

After the Treaty has been in force for ten years, or at any time thereafter, the Parties shall, if any of them so requests, consult together for the purpose of reviewing the Treaty, having regard for the factors then affecting peace and security in the North Atlantic area, including the development of universal as well as regional arrangements under the Charter of the United Nations for the maintenance of international peace and security.​

What part of this treaty is related to China? As long as China does not invade or attack anything in Europe, North America, the Mediterranean, or the Atlantic Ocean north of the Tropic of Cancer, NATO is simply illegitimate to do anything. NATO was created to contain Russia in Europe. It's useless at containing China in South-East Asia. What you'd want is some sort of South East Asia Treaty Organization instead...


Trump's position on NATO was also telling. He openly said Europe has to do more, which was indirectly a message that the US won't be able to protect Europe like it could in the past. Which is why I support France's position to begin a Common Defence, where Europe becomes in charge of its own security, so the US could focus on China and Russia in the Pacific.
Trump's position is not shared by the bulk of the US establishment, who wants Europe to remain weak and divided. The US would rather have useless vassals than independent allies. That's because they are a hegemony, and as such can only perceive the world in a "with us or against us" dichotomy. Anyone who is not slavishly aligned to their unilateral decisions is not a partner but an enemy.

Why AUKUS? Because it was important to break the Attack contract. The way Turnbull had negotiated it, it would have given Australia the ability to autonomously build and maintain their submarines -- not just the Attack class itself, but also the next generation. This was a 180° from the previous Australian policy of abject allegiance to the USA, so Morrison was happy to oblige.

Japan’s Client State (Zokkoku) Problem

The truth is that the US does not admit of “equality” in its relations with any other state. “Allies” tend to be appreciated for their servility. The most warmly welcomed leaders are those most ready to follow the (Tony) Blair path, even if it means becoming known in their own countries as “poodles.” Where Blair was a regular and feted visitor to the White House, dissenters from the servile line are frozen out and ridiculed, as Hatoyama found in 2009. Client states, tied vertically to their “patron,” are structurally incapable of dissent and thus complicit in acts by which their patron abuses international law and engages in criminal acts of aggression, war, and torture. They bear a responsibility for the consequences of their support for the US and the consequences that followed, terrible for Koreans (and later for Vietnamese), and catastrophic still later for Iraqis, Afghans and others. They thus help sustain a vertically framed global order incompatible with universal principles. For Japan and East Asia, the self-abnegation and servility at the heart of the Japanese state serves to subvert any project for Asian community and to destabilize rather than stabilize the region.​

Keep in mind at all time what this means for India. While they need you against China right now, they'll never like you, and they'll always try to cripple you even as they profess to assist you. After all, what's the point of contesting the nascent Chinese hegemony if it's to end up having to contest a nascent Indian hegemony afterwards?
 
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No, because that's stupid.

The only reason the US are using high-enriched uranium is because they had a ton of the stuff from dismantling part of their nuclear arsenal thanks to the SALT and START treaties.

But while on paper it looks good to have reactors that will last for the life of the ship, in practice there are tons of drawbacks.
The first is that it's weapon grade uranium, so technically you could crack open the sub and use the uranium to make a bomb. That's why the whole thing is iffy from a non-proliferation point of view.
The second is that it means your reactor fuel has to maintain viable for 30-to-40 years. Because yes there's a lot of usable uranium in it, but remember how nuclear fission works: that means they'll generate a lot of neutron poison. That means that the reactor will behave very differently throughout its life. For low-enriched reactors, it's not a problem -- you can make use of the regularly scheduled overhauls (that you're gonna have to do anyway, regardless of HEU, LEU, or diesel) -- to clean up the reactor as you recharge it. But for a HEU reactor, it can be a real problem.

Note that the USA are planning to move away from HEU. Reasons being that they're nearly exhausted their surplus stockpile of the stuff, and the technical disadvantages of HEU.

Using LEU allows to use the civilian nuclear infrastructure for obtaining fuel and dealing with the wastes. A positive side effect is that it therefore also helps sustain said civilian infrastructure. With HEU, you don't get that synergy.

Is that another lie they are making up just to fool others? Just like how they were claiming for some time that it's time to go for smaller carriers?

All their future subs and carriers are getting life-of-the-ship reactors as well. And they are upgrading from 33 years to 40 years. As per the USN, cutting open the hull of a sub each time costs $600-800M. And this was an old number, pre-Virginia, so it could be above a billion bucks today. The Russians are also going for such reactors, although their Yasen will give them 25-30 years.

Anyway, you've got one thing wrong, if you go for a higher grade LEU, above 15%, then you can reduce the refueling cycle to just once per life. If you go for a bigger core, you can get a life time using just LEU. So it has less to do with the amount of enrichment and more to do with the technical capabilities of the industry. Your article also speaks of making the LEU design life-of-the-ship as the most desirable option. Otoh, I'm fine with mid-life too. Whatever the case, if the US does plan on switching to LEU, that's gonna be as far away as 2070. I don't think the Americans are gonna give up on proven HEU tech so quickly.

The North Atlantic Treaty

Article 5​

The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.​
Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security .​

Article 6​

For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack:​
  • on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the territory of Turkey or on the Islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer;
  • on the forces, vessels, or aircraft of any of the Parties, when in or over these territories or any other area in Europe in which occupation forces of any of the Parties were stationed on the date when the Treaty entered into force or the Mediterranean Sea or the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer.

Article 10​

The Parties may, by unanimous agreement, invite any other European State in a position to further the principles of this Treaty and to contribute to the security of the North Atlantic area to accede to this Treaty. Any State so invited may become a Party to the Treaty by depositing its instrument of accession with the Government of the United States of America. The Government of the United States of America will inform each of the Parties of the deposit of each such instrument of accession.​

Article 12​

After the Treaty has been in force for ten years, or at any time thereafter, the Parties shall, if any of them so requests, consult together for the purpose of reviewing the Treaty, having regard for the factors then affecting peace and security in the North Atlantic area, including the development of universal as well as regional arrangements under the Charter of the United Nations for the maintenance of international peace and security.​

What part of this treaty is related to China? As long as China does not invade or attack anything in Europe, North America, the Mediterranean, or the Atlantic Ocean north of the Tropic of Cancer, NATO is simply illegitimate to do anything. NATO was created to contain Russia in Europe. It's useless at containing China in South-East Asia. What you'd want is some sort of South East Asia Treaty Organization instead...

That can always be amended to include the whole world. The security CoG has moved towards Asia. So the security of Europe now lies in Asia.

Trump's position is not shared by the bulk of the US establishment, who wants Europe to remain weak and divided. The US would rather have useless vassals than independent allies. That's because they are a hegemony, and as such can only perceive the world in a "with us or against us" dichotomy. Anyone who is not slavishly aligned to their unilateral decisions is not a partner but an enemy.

Why AUKUS? Because it was important to break the Attack contract. The way Turnbull had negotiated it, it would have given Australia the ability to autonomously build and maintain their submarines -- not just the Attack class itself, but also the next generation. This was a 180° from the previous Australian policy of abject allegiance to the USA, so Morrison was happy to oblige.

I agree with all that. The US doesn't want allies, they want vassals. There's nothing more obvious than that.

Keep in mind at all time what this means for India. While they need you against China right now, they'll never like you, and they'll always try to cripple you even as they profess to assist you. After all, what's the point of contesting the nascent Chinese hegemony if it's to end up having to contest a nascent Indian hegemony afterwards?

Yep. I have always maintained that after China, India is gonna be next.

In fact, this is one of the reasons why I think Europe should participate in an anti-China alliance. It's because India will more than likely stay away from military alliances, leaving the US alone, something they cannot handle on their own. The Germany-France combine, with the common defence plan with other members of the EU, should be able to deal with the US on equal footing, which India cannot at this time.
 
The Germany-France combine, with the common defence plan with other members of the EU, should be able to deal with the US on equal footing, which India cannot at this time.
This is doing to us a lot of credit, because in respect of the Americans, the British are a poodle and the Germans a slipper, so how can we make a credible Europe?
We would like a real alliance with India, we would bring technology and you would bring a market and production capacities, but you don't have confidence, you are very distrustful to decide.
 
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This is doing to us a lot of credit, because in respect of the Americans, the British are a poodle and the Germans a slipper, so how can we make a credible Europe?

The biggest hurdle to this is gone though.

We would like a real alliance with India, we would bring technology and you would bring a market and production capacities, but you don't have confidence, you are very distrustful to decide.

Would have worked if we were close by. But being separated by half a world with different problems would mean we are more than likely to disagree on many things.

As for the economy, 10 years ago most of our population lived like sub-Saharan Africans. Today half our population cannot even survive on their own. We have only just started becoming a market worthy of attention, but still 10 years away from actually becoming a worthy market.

Our distrust is natural since we have been treated as a pariah since our independence by the West and only started engaging positively with us after the Cold War was over, more like after India became important as a counterweight to China.
 
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That can always be amended to include the whole world. The security CoG has moved towards Asia. So the security of Europe now lies in Asia.
As usual those are just semantics, it is a gang but nicely worded as alliance. If it is not there it can be invented later, iraq war? I dont think any one is going to take those wordings seriously.