AUKUS : US, UK and Australia forge military alliance to counter China

You're allowed to dream, but you're in for a rude awakening
Is it lost in translation? disregard the headline.
2 out of 6 is always in maintenance. They will stay longer to prepare them for the refit. To last till the mid 2040's.

"The delays have been primarily caused by hull preservation issues relating to the weapons discharge and a number of hull forgings which we've not seen before. You have to remove all of the corrosion, so you have to grind it out, then you have to replace the metal you've removed effected by welding techniques and then you have to machine the weld to effectively get the tolerances to fit for the equipment that then goes on to it.

"That's effectively what we're trying to do here, and these are in fairly difficult, unique places to do [the work]," Mr Whiley explained to the committee under questioning from Liberal senator Simon Birmingham.
 
ls this an own goal? did you just shoot yourself in the foot?
You should have kept reading, we are getting rid of some more French stuff. Safran optronic masts for Collins LOTE and any use on the AUKUS-sub

"An optronics upgrade for the Collins class submarines, announced by the former Coalition government, will not proceed following advice that it would have added complexity and risk to the life-of-type extension program. The SSN AUKUS nuclear-powered conventionally armed submarines will likewise not be fitted with this particular design."
 
(…)
You should have kept reading, we are getting rid of some more French stuff. Safran optronic masts for Collins LOTE and any use on the AUKUS-sub
i’ve read it all, including the Aus MoD announcement. And the Alex Luck tweet too:

Australian government just axed substantial parts of the LOTE (life extension) efforts for Collins submarines, while going ahead with the overall program. A few thoughts on the matter.

Key aspects:

1) Government received advice from Defence in consultation with US that adding Tomahawk to Collins is not viable and does not represent money for value.

No details. But torpedo tube launched Tomahawk is currently out of production.

In order for any production restart to make economic sense AU would have had to sign up for a group buy. Possible partners were RN, which uses tube-launched Tomahawk on Astute, and the Netherlands, who wanted to add capability to Walrus & also use it on Orka successor.

Dynamics are speculative. If RN showed no interest to commit in time, the buy shrinks. NL are currently engaged in troublesome procurement of French-produced Orka SSK, where US signaled they may be unwilling to nod off integration of Tomahawk at least (no word on Mk 48 yet).

The AU announcement has immediate repercussions on NL not getting Tomahawk for Walrus either. In their case same as with AU ambition of integrating land attack capability for a handful of very old SSK always looked IMO very dubious beyond the likely significant cost.

Whether NL Orka was one driver sinking this idea or whether it became collateral damage to shaky economics as outlined above is now an IMO very interesting question. Tomahawk for Walrus is likely dead either way.

Where this leaves RN Astute going forward is another question.



2) Announcement also axes Safran optronic masts for Collins LOTE. This is a holdover from the Attack-program meant to go into Collins. Bit of an extra sting for the French I guess
[les Français « s’en battent les steacks »; is French for « we don’t care anymore »]. My guess is this is simply a collateral of the overall LOTE now looking very shaky on scope.

In this context recent reporting on much more extensive than anticipated corrosion on at least two boats may or may not be an additional driver re other integration of pricey new gear.

Where this leaves Collins capability for bridging to Virginia/AUKUS SSN is tbc.


Tl;dr: Collins LOTE one way or another may die a slow death here. Further reductions (propulsion) are conceivable.

This may even be a blessing in disguise given worst case RAN would have to manage three different submarine designs at the same time, IMO an absurd idea.
/end.

Question: And how many submarines in the world are equipped with Australian-designed and -manufactured optronic masts?
 
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You quote a twitter opinion as if it means anything..would you like to quote your mother too?
I linked the release which said ..We are dumping the french optronics, cut it any way you want.
We aren't going ahead with the Tomahawk, keeping the Harpoon. The rest is blogger nonsense.
 
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Australia Proceeds With Collins Life Extension, Drops Tomahawk And Optronic Mast


Torpedo tube launched Tomahawk unfeasible

RAN intended to equip Collins with the Tomahawk missile for providing additional “strike and deterrence capability”. The phrase is ironically again used in the June 5 statement dropping the capability. Australia took this decision based on “advice from Defence, in consultation with the United States, that adding Tomahawk cruise missile capability to the Collins class submarines is not viable and does not represent value for money.” Collins would have to use the torpedo-tube launched variant of TLAM, which, as Naval News understands, has been out of production for over 12 years.

In addition the announcement clarified that the Safran-developed optronic mast system will not be part of LOTE.
 
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You don't even bother to read the posts on this page.
No froggy mast
No Tomahawk and that would also exclude the euro sub that is wanting it. I don't know if they use the Harpoon, like we do.
The rust is covered and what will be done, above as well.

From your link
Life extension to keep Collins operational for two more decades
 
My mother is a journalist at Naval News
if she is as clueless as you, I doubt that very much.
Government officials have yet to clarify how these issues will impact the overall timeframe and scope of the life-extension for Collins going forward.
What a disappointment. Australia hasn't fully explained to a journalist, every detail.
I will send the PM an email, telling him to do better.
 
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Nuked

The Submarine Fiasco that Sank Australia’s Sovereignty

Andrew Fowler


The spectacular fallout from Australia's duplicitous AUKUS deal

Like all military acquisition programs worth billions of dollars, Australia's decision to buy a new submarine fleet was expected to be a torturous process. But no one could have predicted the trail of wreckage it left behind, from the boulevards of Paris to the dockyards of Adelaide, as deep inside the Australian Government a secret group conspired to overthrow the winning French bid. In this tale of treachery and intrigue, Andrew Fowler exposes the lies and deception that so outraged the President of France. Interviewing many of the main people involved and talking to sources in Paris, London, Washington and Canberra, Fowler pieces together the plot to sink the French and switch to a nuclear-powered US submarine - a botched operation that severely compromised Australia's ability to defend itself.

"The essential first guide to understanding the origins of the AUKUS agreement. Deeply researched and finely crafted, this book raises important and serious questions about the failure of the Morrison and Albanese governments to undertake the most basic, essential tests of policy due diligence concerning the risks and the feasibility of Australia’s aspiration to acquire nuclear-powered submarines. A must, if sobering, read about deception, policy breakdown, misplaced ambition and an ongoing failure to inform the Australian public about what the agreement signifies and entails.”

"Andrew Fowler’s one-man Commission of Inquiry is a nuclear-armed torpedo of a book and a major service to the Australian public. There is astonishing detail in every chapter. Fowler unearths the evidence, names the names, and shows how national security, which should be a goal, is used as a cover for something more sinister.”
 
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The abrupt cancellation of the Barracuda class submarine agreement with France and the signing of the AUKUS agreement have undeniably caused diplomatic tensions, particularly with France, which has significant territories and strategic interests in the Pacific.

France has a significant presence in the Pacific, with territories such as New Caledonia, French Polynesia and Wallis and Futuna. This gives it significant strategic and economic interests in the region, as well as security responsibilities. Because of its presence, France plays an active role in regional security, the management of maritime resources, and cooperation with other Pacific nations.

The lack of consultation with France prior to the announcement of the AUKUS agreement was seen as a lack of respect and transparency, leading to diplomatic tensions. This was seen as a "betrayal" by some French officials, affecting bilateral relations.

This breakdown has highlighted potential gaps in diplomatic and strategic coordination between Western allies, which could weaken cohesion in the face of common challenges in the Indo-Pacific region.

By working with France, Australia could have benefited from France's nuclear submarine experience, while strengthening ties with an ally with a significant presence in the Pacific.

Enhanced cooperation with France could have created beneficial synergies for regional security, integrating French capabilities and presence in the Pacific with AUKUS security initiatives.

The lack of coordination and communication with France on such a crucial issue could be perceived as diplomatic incompetence, affecting credibility and trust between allies. This situation could have long-term repercussions on France's willingness to cooperate in other strategic areas and on its perception of its Anglo-Saxon allies.

The cancellation of the Barracuda class submarine deal with France and the announcement of the AUKUS deal without prior consultation with Paris have certainly had significant diplomatic and strategic consequences. The lack of consultation with France, which has substantial interests and presence in the Pacific, has created tensions that could weaken future cooperation and relations between these allies. This illustrates the need for better diplomatic coordination and communication to maintain cohesion between strategic partners, particularly in such sensitive areas as defence and regional security.

Better diplomacy vis-à-vis France could have facilitated the transition to the AUKUS class in terms of time and cost

Given the bottleneck in the production of Virginia-class submarines in the US and their likely late availability to the Australians, an approach based on delivery of Suffren-class submarines in the short term, followed by AUKUS-class submarines when they become available, could be considered.

Combining the Suffren class submarines with the future AUKUS class offers a balanced approach, enabling an advanced nuclear submarine capability to be available much earlier and at lower cost, while establishing a solid foundation for the integration of the more advanced and interoperable AUKUS class capabilities in the longer term. This would enable Australia to respond quickly to threats and strengthen its defence while progressively developing its capabilities for strategic co-operation with its allies.

Virginia Class and AUKUS Class

The availability of the Virginia class is estimated to be between 2036 and 2042, while that of the AUKUS class is estimated to be between 2038 and 2045. The costs of the combined programme of Virginia-class provisioning followed by AUKUS-class delivery are very high, with total costs for the programme estimated at between AUD 268 billion and AUD 368 billion.

The supposed advantages are strategic alignment with the US and access to advanced technologies and increased interoperability with US forces. The disadvantages are long lead times, very high costs and the complexity of integrating the American and Australian systems.

Suffren class and AUKUS class

The availability of the Suffren class for the first submarine is possible as early as 2031, with subsequent deliveries in 2033, 2035... while that of the AUKUS class is estimated between 2038 and 2045. The costs of the combined programme of Suffren-class provisioning followed by AUKUS-class delivery are estimated at around AUD 1.6 billion per Suffren submarine, potentially much less expensive than the previous programme for a transitional solution.

The assumed benefits are reduced lead times: Suffren class submarines would be available much earlier, providing Australia with advanced nuclear capabilities sooner, potentially lower costs per submarine, providing a more cost effective solution in the short term. In addition, Suffren class submarines are technologically advanced and offer high stealth, endurance and operational capabilities, and this solution presents less of a technological breakthrough, facilitating the transition to AUKUS class capabilities. The disadvantages are less immediate interoperability with US forces, although this can be offset by progressive integration with future AUKUS-class systems.

Conclusion

The Suffren class would provide Australia with nuclear submarines quickly while developing the infrastructure and capabilities needed for AUKUS-class submarines in the longer term. This approach mitigates the risks associated with delays and high costs by providing a solid intermediate capability. Combining the Suffren as an interim solution with the longer-term AUKUS submarines allows greater flexibility in adapting defence capabilities to evolving needs. Less costly in the short term, allowing financial resources to be channelled into the development of the AUKUS class and other defence priorities.
 
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@Optimist Would it not have made sense to proceed with a line of SSK with more range, while the SSN is getting readied.

The only way current thing could work is IF US decides to lease an SSN or 1 is permanently deployed in Aus for the crews to get trained?
 
@Optimist Would it not have made sense to proceed with a line of SSK with more range, while the SSN is getting readied.

The only way current thing could work is IF US decides to lease an SSN or 1 is permanently deployed in Aus for the crews to get trained?

The Collins-class are fairly large for SSKs and will last for a long time yet with the upgrade.
 
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@Optimist Would it not have made sense to proceed with a line of SSK with more range, while the SSN is getting readied.

The only way current thing could work is IF US decides to lease an SSN or 1 is permanently deployed in Aus for the crews to get trained?
The only SSKs that would fulfil our interim needs. Would be the French Attack USK that we canceled. The Japanese Soryu and an updated Collins. We chose the Collins as the best interim option. Cost and Australian workmen are a factor.

We have Australian personal, being trained and embedded on Virginia and UK submarines. We are setting up a SSN port in western Australia. US and UK subs will be rotationally stationed there from 2027
 
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Keuze voor Orka-klasse onderzeeboten definitief

Choice of Orka-class submarines final
The court has rejected the claims of German shipyard Thyssenkrupp Marine Systems (tkMS). Today, the court in The Hague ruled in the case in which tkMS objected to the Ministry of Defence's (provisional) award decision to award the construction of four submarines to French Naval Group.

Thank you to Australia for funding our studies on the conventionally powered Barracuda!