Not talking about legal immigration, illegal immigration (all the shitheads coming in dinghies) is the problem.
It's Labour's fault for not holding a referendum of the Lisbon Treaty.
Brexit and Future of UK : Discussions
- Thread starter Vergennes
- Start date
Simple explanation: it's bullshit that didn't happen. Find me an official source, such as a press release on the website of the Emirates' ministry of defense or the one for foreign affairs. Not a twitter rumor propagated by russian bots.
Mirror with scrambled letters, just playing on the complete fantasy land theme.
Cameron may not have wanted Brexit, but why did he do the referendum then? It wasn't pressure from the public, nor from the opposition, it was pressure from within the Conservative party. He thought "remain" would comfortably win the referendum and shut up all the Brexiters, letting him free to govern without further Tory infighting to worry about. Instead, Brexit narrowly won and the Conservative party was as a result completely transformed into the real Brexit party, with all remainers asked to change their opinion or do like the UK and leave.
Inflation has been hovering between 4.5-8% within that period. [source: https://cpi.mospi.gov.in/Inflation_CurrentSeries_2012.aspx].
Fiscal deficits have been maintained at levels similar to those under the UPA between 2014-24 excluding the 9.2% of GDP spike in 2020. [source: https://openbudgetsindia.org/dataset/union-budget-at-a-glance-timeseries]
And revenues have grown more or less at the same rate as under the UPA (with both governments trebling revenues in 10 years) [source: https://openbudgetsindia.org/dataset/union-budget-at-a-glance-timeseries]
But, the government debt to GDP ratio has gone up [2004-2005: 84.9% | 2014-15: 67% | 2019-20: 75% | 2024-25: 82.5%] (including the 2008 crash and COVID).
And this is while the education and health care budgets have essentially stagnated since the pandemic (or in the case of health care, reduced in real terms).
The increase in defense, again factoring in inflation, has been rather modest. Not quite the economic miracle it would seem.
Thankfully.
No, its just flawed and regressive, especially with the way the GST council functions.
Like the one that just collapsed?
That aside, like you say, there's a need for heroes. The direction things are headed towards right now would lead to personality cults. These are different and the latter is dangerous.
These require detailed, meticulous plans, that are made keeping schedules/deadlines etc. in mind, which isn't something the current lot of Vishwagurus have a great track record of doing, at least not in defense and foreign policy.
Oh, austerity was the accidental end of the middle class, but what's going to happen now is the deliberate end of the already ended middle class.
No, how the reforms carried out by the congress carried into the BJP years and they messed up pretty much every economic indicator, which managed to improve under the economic collapse the UPA engineered.
By what metrics did the UPA collapse the economy anyway?
Boris Johnson and Liz Truss were also PMS in the conservative party, who led conservative governments and were voted to party leadership and therefore power by the conservative party members. Boris Johnson beat Jeremy Hunt by almost 2:1 in the hustings, just by campaigning on a hard Brexit platform. Similarly, Liz Truss beat Rishi Sunak in the party hustings.
It wasn't the stragglers, it was an overwhelming majority of the rank-and-file "Tories" who voted in the more incompetent candidate every time around in their leadership hustings.
So which PM you're talking about needs to be specified. Is it the one who was forced to resign because her Brexit wasn't hard enough for the conservative party (Theresa May), or the man who became the poster child of incompetence and mismanagement (Boris Johnson), or the one who melted the markets and lost to lettuce (Liz Truss), or the one who came in without a party election since they couldn't trust the party cadre not to repeat the same mistakes (Rishi Sunak)?
Also, it's funny that somehow the hard Brexiteers are the stragglers when they pretty much held pretty important cabinet assignments and parliamentary posts throughout all post-2016 conservative governments.
And just to repeat, it was the conservative governments (including the one of Theresa May) that repeatedly flat-out refused to even entertain freedom of movement with the EU at any level.
Yeah, what's happening is the rise of an openly neo-nazi party, that feeds on anger over economic mismanagement, and directs it at the "others". Pretty similar to what their idols, the nazis, had originally done in the Weimar Republic.
The DPK, Kim Young Sam, Kim Dae Jung, Roh Moo Hyun, Moon Jae In, Lee Jae Myung etc. would like a word. These "extremely conservative societies" are over 60% non-religious, perform among the best in most metrics of gender equality, and have generous schemes in education, healthcare, social welfare, etc. that would get immediately classified as communist/leftist/freebie policies here. But okay.
No part of a semi-decent industrial policy targeting high-value manufacturing like batteries, displays, semiconductors, electronics, etc. requires a de-facto dictatorship. India's labor protection laws are already questionable in their provisions for workplace safety, over-exploitation, wage guarantees, working hours, and compensations. It might sound cool and inspirational but having your workers grind for 72 hours a week at minimal salaries isn't an economically or socially sound idea.
And the highest amount of lost talent as well. There's nothing to take pride in sending your students to foreign universities to get industrially educated since you don't invest in your colleges. You're just losing the talent you have in-house because you didn't plan out a lot of high-value sectors that will pay those students well.
Oh, and the manpower being exported to a place like Canada is neither great nor something to be proud of.
Or maybe most people are simply not as sensitive or receptive as you to having their assumptions or beliefs being questioned.
Not the OP, but probably the best is to have alternating governments every 5 years, or at a maximum,10 years. The moment any party becomes too entrenched or comfortable, the rot begins.
The vote division was conservative/liberals to some extent, with more conservatives preferring Brexit and more liberals preferring Remain. But the vote division was also along socio-economic lines, with the older, less educated, rural, and lower-income people preferring to leave and the urban, younger, richer people preferring to remain.
Brexit divides the UK, but partisanship and ideology are still key factors
Public opinion on Brexit aligns with attitudes toward the EU, immigration and culture.
www.pewresearch.org
Which is why Leave didn't overwhelmingly win in England or Wales.
Someday people here will also understand that the above is even true for politicians who happen to share their visceral hatred of certain people
(case in point, Rishi Sunak's multiple flip-flops on multiple issues).
Irony's died a thousand deaths.
Some rumors about it being frozen by Financial Express.
In case it's not true, I'm not sure why the newspaper has not withdrawn the article.
It's a pretty reputable paper.
These guys say something and do something else entirely. For example Corbyn privately shared UKIP's position on Brexit.
Fragile Five for UPSC civil services; Read more on the Fragile Five countries
Fragile Five for UPSC civil services; Read more on the Fragile Five countries; Fragile Five termed by an analyst at Morgan Stanley, emerging economies reliant on foreign investments
byjus.com
Gross NPAs of 40 banks rises 36.9% in September 2013
Industry News:Gross NPAs of 40 banks rises 36.9% in September 2013
Centre lowers GDP growth to 4.5 per cent for 2012-13
The revised estimate is the lowest in a decade
Oil bonds launched by the UPA: why, how much, and what NDA argues
Oil bonds UPA: Instead of paying direct subsidy to oil marketing companies from the Budget, the then government issued oil bonds totalling Rs 1.34 lakh crore to the state-fuel retailers in a bid to contain the fiscal deficit.
indianexpress.com
But, after peaking at 12.1% year-on-year in November 2013, CPI inflation plunged all the way to 4.3% by December 2014, just over a year later.
Oh, yeah, we were doing really well under UPA. [/sarcasm]
Better hope they win the next time. While I partly agree with your view regarding this term, I don't agree with your sentiment. My view is the govt still needs to do a lot of homework before introducing changes for the next 50 years, which includes a major rise in the strength of the middle class expected within this term.
Sure. That's a good leftist talking point. Even industrialists are happy with it.
Oh, yeah, let's bring in one-off incidents, never mind the highest amount of infrastructure built in a decade. What an argument, sirjee.
Anyway, I was referring to their Liberty Island style 200+ meter statue.
Shiv Smarak - Wikipedia
Both defense and foreign policy are fine under Modi. People are just being impatient, largely led by lack of knowledge. The govt's under attack both internally and externally from many sides.
Taken WB for example. The best option for NDA is to let nature take its course. Since India's democratic fundamentals are strong, the people will decide Mamata's future. But people outside WB are far too impatient. The same story with Manipur, Myanmar, BD, Maldives etc. Pretty much all these countries will fall under India's sphere of influence eventually anyway, and the govt knows exactly when and where to put the squeeze.
Take the Saudis and Emiraties for example. India has become their existential crutch, so they have pretty much fallen under India's influence. They are now toeing India's line on Israel and their economic future now depends on India.
Sure. But it's planned, not accidental.
I think we live in parallel worlds. Read the first para of this post again.
The MPs reacted to their constituents post Brexit. They wanted to buy as much time as possible for the negotiations. What we saw post-Brexit was just mismanagement of a situation that could only be described as a clusterfvck.
Cameron. The rest were stopgaps until they could restore their power, until Nigel Farage killed their plan singlehandedly. Sunak could have won the elections had Reform not split the vote.
What they say and what they do are not the same. Most of them went along with the arguement that a lot of things will remain the same with the EU because of their perceived importance.
It's well known that the Tories do not want immigrants. It's the Labour that did.
That's how both left and right come to power when the ruling party is being inefficient or not giving the people what they want. This isn't exclusive to the "right" alone. It's a standard peaceful "revolution" in democracies.
Welfare is not leftist. Socialism, end to private property and speech are leftist/communist.
India also championed gender equality during ancient times, when it was a conservative society. Plus your definition is a Western definition based on its societal rules. The same doesn't apply elsewhere. Japan and SoKo are conservative.
For example, SoKo's Democratic Party is center-right by Western definitions, similar to the Republicans, whereas their opposition would be equivalent to a far rightparty in Europe.
Democratic Party of Korea - Wikipedia
Basically, both Japan and SoKo do not have a true left wing party simply because the general population deeply abhors communism.
Third World issues, not a govt issue yet. The quality of the workforce will improve as the middle class becomes the majority over the next 5-10 years. Give UPA a chance before that, and we will go back to being the sh!thole we were before 2014.
The net gain has been greater for India. Brain drain is another leftist nonsense peddled by them.
As quality of life improves in India, people tend to move again, typically back to India.
One of the biggest reasons is the regaining of Hindu pride since 2014.
Dev Patel says he was 'ashamed' of his Indian roots while growing up
Actor and director Dev Patel recently revealed his early shame about his Indian heritage on 'The Kelly Clarkson Show'. His directorial debut 'Monkey Man', heavily influenced by Indian mythology, signifies his reconnection with his roots.
I wonder why the rich and the middle class are so pro-BJP then.
Hence my 10-15 years for BJP and 5 for Congress. Anything more than 5 for Congress would be the end of India. Like what the UPA did between 2009 and 2014. First and foremost, the Global Left needs to be defeated in the EU and the US, that would mean election victories for Trump, Le Pen, Tusk and even the CDC/AFD, either party, don't care.
The vote division was conservative/liberals to some extent, with more conservatives preferring Brexit and more liberals preferring Remain. But the vote division was also along socio-economic lines, with the older, less educated, rural, and lower-income people preferring to leave and the urban, younger, richer people preferring to remain.
Brexit divides the UK, but partisanship and ideology are still key factors
Public opinion on Brexit aligns with attitudes toward the EU, immigration and culture.
Which is why Leave didn't overwhelmingly win in England or Wales.
The people that were influenced were the center, ie, the fence-sitters, along with the right. The Labour confused the swing voters enough to vote for Brexit while maintaining the positions of their core base.
Sunak had a difficult job to do and too little time. Flip-flops are part and parcel of a system that isn't working. It has nothing to do with ideology. Leaders experiment with sentiments to see what works and what doesn't. Wherever there's acceptance they manage to push something and wherever there's pushback they reel back their positions. This is pretty normal even in the corporate sector.
Welcome to politics. I go by actions, not words.
Here's a good example:
Let's all stop growing food. What a good idea.
And oh, no, Biden admitting that the IRA was really a climate act.
How fun!!! All climate agendas target someone, and IRA specifically targets, guess who, Europe. And to a certain extent, India, SoKo, Japan etc. In the meantime, they made energy very expensive for Europe.
Actions are what matter.
Labour wanted to end non-white right wing immigration like Christian Poles and replace that with TW Islamic immigration, while their voterbase (30%) was pro-EU immigration. The Conservatives wanted to stay in the EU, but their voterbase (35%) was anti-immigration in general.
Now look at what's happening in the UK and Canada. They are cracking down on foreign university students while increasing the influx of illiterates and criminals from the TW. Why? Asians and Indians are really, really bad for the leftist racism story. In just 10-15 years, you will end up in a situation where competent non-white minorities in Europe will leave and that will allow the Global Elites to create a narrative where all the white people are considered racist given the TW-like situation of incompetent non-whites left around you.
Same story in the US. Most Indians there have no green cards and the waiting period goes into decades to a century. As things get better in India in terms of quality of life, many will return. The ones left behind will be the incompetent non-Indian ones.
Add all the leftist nonsense like trans and climate agenda along with attacks on freedom of speech and food shortages, you can then pave the road for communism in the West.
The only way out is for right wingers to take back power and stay that way for 20 years.
All you have to do is read the history of the left in India from after independence, it's all the same plan. It just didn't work out in India 'cause the left overreached, a pattern being repeated in Europe today, hence the rise of the right wing. Attacking the majority's cultural identity, creating group identity to divide it, create food shortages, create unequal opportunities for growth, control the growth of its population via mass sterilization (in the West they are doing it via the trans agenda), create negative stereotypes etc, while doing the opposite for the minority but keeping them economically suppressed in order to create a dependency. India has two minorities, Muslims and Dalits, this gives them two ways to attack the majority. So they are trying to create a similar system in the US and Europe, poor non-whites + Muslims.
This is an interesting read for all the readers here. @Arctic Wolf. This article explains why leftist economic policies failed. Compare what we had to Modi's rule to get an idea of how much things have changed since Nehru and how much change is still required because India is only one among the three that's still developing. The other two are Israel and the UK.
Three Nations That Tried Socialism and Rejected It
Socialists are fond of saying that socialism has never failed because it has never been tried. But in truth, socialism has failed in every country in which it has been tried, from the Soviet Union beginning a century ago to three modern countries that tried but ultimately rejected...
www.heritage.org
The UK is the real reason why the Nehru-Gandhi family acted the way they did, learned from he best idiots in the West, until PMs Rao and Vajpayee took over.
The Global Left wants to go back to this system in the West, and India is also their main target because of the Nehru-Gandhi family. This nonsense is also the reason why the US picked Pakistan in the late 50s. That's why Modi needs 2/3rd majority to change the system in India to become a fully capitalist country like the US. And Europe needs to maintain its way of life before it goes down into the same hole India was in until 2014.
PS: The article also explains why population control is part of leftist propaganda. Leftist systems cannot manage large populations, and years of propaganda has convinced people that population control is good. There's nothing wrong with population growth, as the world is finding out today. The planet can sustain 10-15 times the current population. All it needs is good governance. For example, only 15% of India's farmlands are large, the remaining 85% are subsistence distributed to the poor by Indira Gandhi when she abolished right to property with her 2/3rd majority. You can imagine why droughts are so bad in India. The govt feeds 815 million people (adults) and 80% of their wheat comes from only Punjab and Haryana alongside 30-40% of its rice. 400 million are youth and dependents who are pretty much useless, so the rest of our food is for scrubs like us who pay full price, and we still import wheat in the South.
The NDP abandoned Trudeau. 
www.indiatoday.in
There's some potential for early elections instead of next year.
Canada crisis: Why Jagmeet Singh's NDP stopped being Trudeau's BFF
The New Democratic Party (NDP) was the BFF that Justin Trudeau's Liberal Party of Canada needed as no party got an absolute majority in 2021. However, the friendship didn't last till mid-2025 as was planned. This is why Jagmeet Singh ditched Trudeau and distanced his NDP from the Liberals ahead...
There's some potential for early elections instead of next year.
London's definitely "safe."
Bangalore has a similar population as London, 14+ million people. We had 207 murders last year, up 31% from the previous year. We have a leftist govt in control in the state, hence the rise in crime. But I guess a single area in London still surpasses the entire city of Bangalore.
Oh, well. I'm sure the Brits know what they are doing.
Bangalore has a similar population as London, 14+ million people. We had 207 murders last year, up 31% from the previous year. We have a leftist govt in control in the state, hence the rise in crime. But I guess a single area in London still surpasses the entire city of Bangalore.
Oh, well. I'm sure the Brits know what they are doing.
@A Person @Arctic Wolf @Picdelamirand-oil
An excellent breakdown of a "boomer socialist," why George R R Martin cannot finish his last two books.
I guess people need to have real problems.
An excellent breakdown of a "boomer socialist," why George R R Martin cannot finish his last two books.
I guess people need to have real problems.
@randomradio, thanks for the detailed rebuttals. Apologies to all for these irregular posts, it's very difficult balancing everything between work and studies.
www.thehindu.com
For those interested in a long-term outlook, the following might be helpful: https://www.indiabudget.gov.in/economicsurvey/doc/Statistical-Appendix-in-English.pdf
openbudgetsindia.org
Individuals interested in a more detailed dive might find the following helpful: Ministry of Statistics and Programme Implementation, Government of India
For those desiring a quick summary, the following might help: https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/analysing-the-rising-gap-in-incomes/article67770234.ece
With the present data collection practices within India and the lack of time series comparisons of income pyramids, going by, the comparisons between income figures, and wealth concentrations between successive editions of PLFS.
That said, for the truly rich within India (or anywhere), any stagnation in education, healthcare, or social welfare is not a concern. For example, for an individual able to afford a degree from Stanford, a major cut in the budget allocated to IITs is immaterial. Or for someone able to fly to the US to get treated, or reserve a bed in Apollo or Medanta, stagnation in healthcare budgets does not represent an existential threat.
Coming to the 10-15% of India's population constituting its middle class, opinions are much more divided than appearances suggest. For a crude, rough idea, individuals mostly under 30, either still in universities or entering the job markets as freshers, or with 5-7 years of experience seeking a raise, the satisfaction levels with the current economic and taxation policies are pretty low, with issues about the stagnating (or in some domains, shrinking) high-paying jobs market in the country.
Any further questions or rebuttals on economic figures are welcome.
As for the rest, including the subsequent posts, there is no use in replying further from this side. Again, apologies if that is a cop-out after having started it all.
Just one final point before conceding the space. Cults of personality are dangerous, regardless of side or ideological alignment. Shared hatred should not be enough of a threshold to justify ignoring or handwaving known facts.
Thank you all.
Instead of time series, individual data points like the one above, or maybe the one below, might not properly establish the patterns the study of which forms the basis of economics as a subject:
GDP growth slows to a 11-year low of 4.2%, Q4 slumps to 3.1%
In 2019-20, the Indian economy grew by 4.2% against 6.1% expansion in 2018-19.
For those interested in a long-term outlook, the following might be helpful: https://www.indiabudget.gov.in/economicsurvey/doc/Statistical-Appendix-in-English.pdf
The original reply has illustrated the debt levels between 2004-2024, as well as the similarity in the fiscal indicators, including fiscal, primary and, current account deficits between 2004-2024. For additional reference, the below might be helpful:
Union Budget at a Glance (Timeseries) from 1995-1996 (Actuals) to 2024-2025 (Budget Estimates)
The table is a time-series compilation of select indicators of the Union Budget from 1994-1995 (Actuals) to 2024-2025 (Budget Estimates) derived from Budget at a Glance.
As noted earlier, interested individuals might find the following helpful: https://cpi.mospi.gov.in/Default1.aspx
Will be willing to stake any limited knowledge in economics on this not happening whatsoever by 2029.
Individuals interested in a more detailed dive might find the following helpful: Ministry of Statistics and Programme Implementation, Government of India
For those desiring a quick summary, the following might help: https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/analysing-the-rising-gap-in-incomes/article67770234.ece
With the present data collection practices within India and the lack of time series comparisons of income pyramids, going by, the comparisons between income figures, and wealth concentrations between successive editions of PLFS.
That said, for the truly rich within India (or anywhere), any stagnation in education, healthcare, or social welfare is not a concern. For example, for an individual able to afford a degree from Stanford, a major cut in the budget allocated to IITs is immaterial. Or for someone able to fly to the US to get treated, or reserve a bed in Apollo or Medanta, stagnation in healthcare budgets does not represent an existential threat.
Coming to the 10-15% of India's population constituting its middle class, opinions are much more divided than appearances suggest. For a crude, rough idea, individuals mostly under 30, either still in universities or entering the job markets as freshers, or with 5-7 years of experience seeking a raise, the satisfaction levels with the current economic and taxation policies are pretty low, with issues about the stagnating (or in some domains, shrinking) high-paying jobs market in the country.
Any further questions or rebuttals on economic figures are welcome.
As for the rest, including the subsequent posts, there is no use in replying further from this side. Again, apologies if that is a cop-out after having started it all.
Just one final point before conceding the space. Cults of personality are dangerous, regardless of side or ideological alignment. Shared hatred should not be enough of a threshold to justify ignoring or handwaving known facts.
Thank you all.
If you manage to see the actions of the Tories for the last decade at least as being anti-Brexit and pro-EU, you're really lost in your delusional nonsense.
So, a guy on twitter saying stuff. Wow.
That's another conspiracy theory being recycled, by the way. It was heard before in the USA.
Is the US Government Paying Farmers To Destroy Crops?
From USDA: "Food production and manufacturing are widely dispersed throughout the U.S., and there are currently no wide-spread disruptions reported in the supply chain."
www.snopes.com
What might be true is that there are incentives to let land rest (fallows) for a year. That's part of the crop rotation system which was the only way to do agriculture before industrial fertilizers and pesticides. Another is that in the UK, farmers who wish to leave farming to do something else get a subsidy to help them.
Don't sweat it. Nobody's getting paid for this sh!t. Take your time.
The ones I posted are more relevant to how elections are won or lost. When you take things over a time series, it doesn't give you the exact picture because India's economy has always been growing since independence. All 'cause of our extremely low base.
The middle class in India is growing rapidly.
How the middle class will play the hero in India's rise as world power
Imagine desi companies easily growing into global biggies supported by vast domestic scale. Growing disposable incomes, along with the rise of the middle class, will make India a consumption powerhouse.
7% is 100 million people. So shall we assume 70 million by 2029?
You mean the Nehru-Gandhi parivar? People like Modi will come and go, they are temporary, as it's meant to be. But the Nehru-Gandhi parivar is meant to be "eternal."
Fun times.
The state will take back control of people’s lives, says Starmer
Prime Minister uses Brexit war cry to appeal to Reform voters as he sets out Labour vision for Britain
www.telegraph.co.uk
Areas that he claimed would benefit from government control included the NHS, energy, justice, education, the office and the economy.
I guess the first step after creating an anarcho-tyranny is to reestablish socialism, overturning all of Margaret Thatcher's earlier good work. "Take back control" they say, just not what the average Brit thinks it means.
At least they don't plan to touch interpersonal relationships. Oh, wait, pedophilia is fast becoming legal now.
Wasn't the only one.
That's another conspiracy theory being recycled, by the way. It was heard before in the USA.
Is the US Government Paying Farmers To Destroy Crops?
From USDA: "Food production and manufacturing are widely dispersed throughout the U.S., and there are currently no wide-spread disruptions reported in the supply chain."
You are relying on fake news from the US to discredit what actual farmers are saying in the UK.
Ah, so you're saying farmers are not protesting in the UK?
Tractors gather at Parliament in farmer go-slow protest
Farmers from across the UK drive tractors to Westminster to protest a lack of support for food producers.
www.bbc.com
Interesting stuff:
Farmers call on supermarkets to end ‘farmwashing’ and support local producers
The ‘Farmers against Farmwashing’ campaign claims supermarkets are using fake farm brands and overuse of Union Jack branding to mislead shoppers.
Btw, it increasingly looks like the Tories are also part of the Globalist cabal. Labour is just even more so.
Lucky for France, Le Pen in now in charge of France's Interior Ministry. Must be why Macron's jumping for joy in front of the diabled athletes.
Good for you guys, alongside the change in mood in a few other EU countries.