China’s “String of Pearls” and India's Two Front War Predicament : Analysis

You are putting the cart before the horse. India china both are nuclear powers with massive armies. Will china wage a war against India can't be answered without answering what will they achieve by risking nuclear war ? How will they achieve it ? In what time frame? At how many casualties? What will happen in after math of war? Could they capture the territory ? Of so could they hold it ? For how long?

Answering these questions would answer if there will be a war at all.


Glad someone has the depth of understanding that answer to a question like 'Will China wage war against India' cannot be answered in a simple Yes or No.
The ease with which china will go to war with Mongolia cannot be compared with its reluctance to go to war with India.
Will China go to war with India ? Yes if push comes to shove it will, but then all nations will go to war with any other nation if certain conditions are met.

The correct question to ask here is how likely is china to wage war against India in this decade, or next 5 years, or over 'X' issue. Then you balance the risk and rewards against the time frame or 'X' issue and arrive at a probability.

Which is what you refer to as math of war (plus the logistics etc, of course)


As we saw in doklam for all their incessant threats Chinese chose peace over war. Now we must see what compulsions drove them to that decision?

Chinese have done well so far to screw the apparent probability factor or math in their favour. They have made war look inevitable if certain boundaries are crossed and weaker leadership of other countries have even bought into it.
Nobody called the bluff until now in Doklam.
I think, if we are to be slow to modernise or do not raise the risk to reward ratio, or were to we have a timid leadership, chinese could have considered the possibility to make an example of us in the coming decade, either by forcing us to (very) publicly cede ground Or by a quick small scale skirmish to be won quickly by overwhelming power.
 
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Glad someone has the depth of understanding that answer to a question like 'Will China wage war against India' cannot be answered in a simple Yes or No.
The ease with which china will go to war with Mongolia cannot be compared with its reluctance to go to war with India.
Will China go to war with India ? Yes if push comes to shove it will, but then all nations will go to war with any other nation if certain conditions are met.

The correct question to ask here is how likely is china to wage war against India in this decade, or next 5 years, or over 'X' issue. Then you balance the risk and rewards against the time frame or 'X' issue and arrive at a probability.

Which is what you refer to as math of war (plus the logistics etc, of course)




Chinese have done well so far to screw the apparent probability factor or math in their favour. They have made war look inevitable if certain boundaries are crossed and weaker leadership of other countries have even bought into it.
Nobody called the bluff until now in Doklam.
I think, if we are to be slow to modernise or do not raise the risk to reward ratio, or were to we have a timid leadership, chinese could have considered the possibility to make an example of us in the coming decade, either by forcing us to (very) publicly cede ground Or by a quick small scale skirmish to be won quickly by overwhelming power.

They precisely did that in 2013 when they occupied Ladakh DBO and our brave MMS invited them for a talk to delhi to diffuse the tension , again to test waters with modi they did a similar incursion in 2014 and even during Xi Jinping's first visit under modi , Only after India stood up and shown middle finger in doklam these Chinese backtracked . These guys are perfect bullies the more you give the more brazen they become
 
They precisely did that in 2013 when they occupied Ladakh DBO and our brave MMS invited them for a talk to delhi to diffuse the tension , again to test waters with modi they did a similar incursion in 2014 and even during Xi Jinping's first visit under modi , Only after India stood up and shown middle finger in doklam these Chinese backtracked . These guys are perfect bullies the more you give the more brazen they become

Even the thought of being bullied by these rat eaters makes me roll eyes and it was about time somebody showed them the proverbial finger.
May be when this corona shit settles we will see the world leaders recalibrate their response towards china.

By the way I have a firm belief that Modi is a rare breed. I only hope that by the time he retires, the country will be secured and have proper systems and a road map for next 70 years in place.

Lastly a war with India is the last thing they want. They have bigger fish to fry but they will take advantage of our weaknesses to try and subdue us (and make an example of us in the meanwhile) by mind games and posturing. If you realise their weakness is saving face then you can deal effectively with them and may be even extract concessions.
 
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They precisely did that in 2013 when they occupied Ladakh DBO and our brave MMS invited them for a talk to delhi to diffuse the tension , again to test waters with modi they did a similar incursion in 2014 and even during Xi Jinping's first visit under modi , Only after India stood up and shown middle finger in doklam these Chinese backtracked . These guys are perfect bullies the more you give the more brazen they become


If some one is after your wife (in general) will you invite that person at home and say, here is the demarcation and if you come across this line you I will protest but you can stay far and masturbate seeing my wife, its okay for me. The same is he scenario with the other goon known as Pakistan. They they pull duppatat and they leave.

That's what India does to protect it's territories. 17 lakh military personals are just to keep them employed and raise employment rate to show the world.
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solution, is simple and applies to strategy and tactical scenario also: Koi tumhari ma beti chere to tum uski ma behen cher do.
 
Tanzania President cancels $10billion Chinese loan; Refers to the Terms and Conditions As One That Can Only be Accepted by Drunkard Person.
Is Magufuli a demigod or the general African leadership has started stepping up to Chinese Killer loans? Let’s digest it. A few years back, African leaders developed a sudden inexplicable craze for Chinese killer loans with terms and conditions that beats logic.

They sign Chinese loan agreements that they know very well they cannot pay back within the agreed time frame but mostly proceed with the loans just for the kickbacks attached and the benefits some individual politicians stand to get from such contracts to the detriment of the development of their respective nations. In most cases, the defaulted loans lead to the seizure of major facilities to make-up for the amount involved.

Following a series of constructive criticisms by reputable organizations and general outcry by concerned African citizens about the dire consequences of these killer loans on the continent, some of the leaders seem to be taking certain commendable actions to save their dying reputations.

Prior to the enlightenment and outrage by the African citizenry, the least was heard of African leaders or governments confronting China to loosen up their terms or face suspension of contracts but in recent times, they are building some courage to do the needful.

The Tanzanian head of state, John Magufuli canceled Chinese loan of ten billion US dollar (US$10billion) agreement signed by his predecessor, Jakaya Kikwete with Chinese investors to construct a port at Mbegani creek in Bagamoyo, just north of Da es Salaam.

The Chinese investors initially agreed with the erstwhile Tanzanian administration to build the said port on condition that, they will be granted a 30years guarantee, 99years uninterrupted lease with an attached outrageous demand that, the Tanzanian government will have absolutely no power to raise concerns on whoever invests in the port during the period stated.

This sounds very ridiculous, but it was actually signed by a certain government which raises the question of whether our lead negotiators read and understand agreements before appending their signatures. In the words of Magufuli, the above terms and conditions could only be accepted by mad people. in effect, He initiated a renegotiation with the investors to bring down the lease period to 33 instead of the initial 99 years negotiated.

The government equally stated clearly that there will be no tax or utility exemption for the investors as has mostly been the case in the parasitic China-Africa trade relations. Additionally, the investors will need the approval of the government in order to operate any new business at the port. The government issued a time frame which the investors failed to meet, resulting in the suspension of the agreement.

Aside Tanzania, it could be remembered that, the Julius Maada Bio lead administration in Sierra Leon equally suspended a $400 million airport construction agreement in 2018. He was quoted to have said that: “it is uneconomical to proceed with the construction of the new airport when the existing one is grossly underutilized”.

Additionally, there have been several other resistances to Chinese backed contracts in Africa. The cancellation of a USD2 billion coal plant contract in Kenya, among few others, are typical examples of the growing awareness.

Does this imply that there are no countries in Africa that are still taking these killer Chinese loans? No! some countries still sign such agreements, mostly at the blind side of the public and the consequences will soon be seen.

The acknowledgment of the above bold steps taken is mainly to encourage the African leadership to move away from the killer Chinese loan mindset which is a looming neocolonial trap and focus more on transformational ideas to make good use of our resources. Even if they will consider signing such, they should come with reasonable and mutually beneficial terms.
 
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Sir , please explain in some more detail
About the likely sequence of events
Does this mean that the Two front conflict is now certain
No question about it. PLAAF going to Pak is a direct pointer to it. How does de-escalation meet this idea?

With this attitude, Modi has to do nothing to come out with shining colors. He is already victorious of all wars he is yet to fight.
We will have to fight the war all by ourselves. let their be no doubt. between China and India whoever looses, the western world wins.

If US is helping us , let us attack them soon
Wake up and Smell the Coffee
India US alliance will happen
PLAAF has sent planes to Pakistan
Doval did , he is missing since several days
we wargamed it in 2016. With PLA, PLAN & PLAAF operating from Pakistan soil. That was the only way they could have had a chance in two front war. We also knew that Chinese will allow Pakistan to be taken out in pre-emptive nuke strikes without exposing their own and also force Pakistan to attack us with nukes to cripple us. They will loose a few but Pakistan will be wiped out and India will be greatly put back. A nuke strike from Pakistan does not force us to launch nukes on China.
BUT
Chineses forget a lot of things. I was supposed to post an appriciation of this scenario on last Friday night. But decided to withhold and not post it. I am from Indian Armed forces and my thinking is alighned the way we think in our forces. Chinese are doing things exactly like we thought them to do. They are not trapping us, we are trapping them. They are walking into our trap. Just the way Pak nuke strikes do not force us to launch nukes on China similarly nukes launched on us will allow QUAD to destroy China. Quid pro quo. Even Russians have wargamed it and told China to lay off. But Russinas now think that they have chance to take over large part of Chinese territory and increase their influence in the world and replace China.
The world will have over 220 million less muslims very very soon. A free Tibet and East Turkmenistan soon. Ertrugul may be a hit in Pakistan but India will be worshipped in Muslim world for setting those muslims free when whole muslim ummah failed to do it and infect did nothing.
China is taking time thru diplomacy. We are tracking their subs which are coming into IOR for last 40 days. We are tracking them and ready to sink them. QUAD is very much in play.
Donald Duck is suffering from very serious mental problem. Something like brain Tumour. he is out of the game. Infect USA is out of the game and so is NATO. I had stated a few weeks back that India must mobilise and call everyone between 18-40 for military service. My dau is already wearing a uniform as defender of the nation and my son is 18.5 years old and I have told him to fight for the nation and he is ready to even serve as a sipahi/sepoy.
Nations are build by the blood of the youth and experience of elders. Let the youth rise up to do their duty for the nation in the footsteps of their forefathers.
 
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No question about it. PLAAF going to Pak is a direct pointer to it. How does de-escalation meet this idea?

So last time when there were some rumours boiling that IAF scrambled jets along Indo Pak border close to Sindh was basically due to this development that PLAAF was flying on the other side?
 
We will have to see who outruns whom in running away from battlefield. Both armies have an outstanding record of running away and surrendering.

IMO USA won't allow Pakistan to use F16 against us, what other members think?
Yes, those kill switches in F-16s will most likely be activated if PLAAF joins PAF in battle against us. This was an assurance given to Late Parikkar by then Sec of State of US.
Did they (Pak) not do exactly that (used F-16) on 28th Feb 2019 against India?
PAF vs IAF, they can use F-16 but not with China.
 
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How credible is that source?


We will have to see who outruns whom in running away from battlefield. Both armies have an outstanding record of running away and surrendering.


Yes, those kill switches in F-16s will most likely be activated if PLAAF joins PAF in battle against us. This was an assurance given to Late Parikkar by then Sec of State of US.

PAF vs IAF, they can use F-16 but not with China.

USA started jumping even when PAF used it against IAF without China.
However, they (Pak) did what they wanted to.


I wonder in a real war scenario, what good those "Kill-Switches" will do?
F-16s will not be able to use any avionics / weapons?
 
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Weak comback, bro.

Not to your taste, eh?


Yep. Which is why I think we should go to war, if we are, only in 2023 or beyond. In the meantime, we need to become self-sufficient in many technologies that's imported from China and also give other countries an alternative source.

It's like saying let cancer afflict me, if it has to & I'm destined to get it when I'm 75+ & have lived my life.
 
Not to your taste, eh?

My tastes are of a "higher" class.

It's like saying let cancer afflict me, if it has to & I'm destined to get it when I'm 75+ & have lived my life.

That's not how this analogy works. We don't have cancer, we have a spinal cord injury right now, with only our arms working.

When you go to war, you are either thrown into the fighting ring where you have no control or you begin the fight at your time and place of choosing. The situation is such that we can begin the time and place of our choosing since we hold the cards.

People with common sense, those not stuck with low quality bamboo grass, will pick the latter. The simple fact is we need to enter the fight after we have taken care of all our business. Two most critical ones are modernisation and getting the economy back on track.

There two factors are extremely critical. I don't have to explain the economic factor, we must do whatever we can in order to reduce dependency on China during this time. Some industrialists have pointed out that it can be done within a few years for essential imports.

But when it comes to military modernisation, here's something important.
.
In his letter, Gen Singh said India's air defence was "97% obsolete", the army lacked the equipment it needed and its entire tank fleet was "devoid of critical ammunition to defeat enemy tanks".

This was said back in 2012. And in return, the Modi govt signed up for 5 regiments of MRSAM and initiated the development of Akash Prime and QRSAM.

To put things in perspective, a single MRSAM battery is about 4 times more capable than Akash and 16 times more capable than the still obsolete and yet to be replaced existing SAMs. In other words, a single MRSAM battery is as capable of 4 batteries of Akash, without even considering its next generation technology or the fact that it works up to twice the distance.

Without doing this, what you're proposing is the military must fight with systems that can no longer be used on the battlefield. Otoh, if we give it enough time, the army will get a system that the Chinese have no hope of matching at all. The same with the QRSAM, it will go completely unchallenged by the Chinese. Both MRSAM and QRSAM cannot be defeated by existing Chinese aircraft.

Most of the systems we need in order to fight and win were all signed up for during Modi's first term and are in the process of being delivered today. We most definitely should not go to war without these inducted in any sizeable number. And we actually do not need a lot of such systems. The entire Ladakh region needs just 1 MRSAM and QRSAM regiments each.

Same story with our artillery and infantry. Our artillery is mostly composed of 105mm guns with less than 20Km range, while our infantry is still to get new rifles and carbines. Same story with light helicopters, we definitely need a rapid induction of about 50+. You are not going to maintain troop morale if there's no casevac and supplies. And we can't do that effectively with our antique force of Alouettes, that can crash anytime during high tempo operations in bad weather, and without advanced SAMs to protect them.

You say we should go to war right away, great, yeah, we can go to war. But right now, the army's objective is not a victory, it's a stalemate. But replace the systems I named above, the army's objective will switch from stalemate to victory. That's how much of a difference there is. What's funny is we can get all this done within a year.

As an accident victim with a spinal cord injury, you first need to worry about walking and running before you worry about cancer in the future.

The air force and navy are not in a good place as well. The air force need the full complement of Rafales, with ISE, and MKIs with Derby ER and ASRAAM. And the navy needs new destroyers and frigates. Right now, they have just 3 destroyers capable of advanced AAW, the rest of the ships are carrying obsolete SAMs. During this time we will see the induction of near-hypersonic Brahmos as well, and this one's absolutely unstoppable.

Most of the air force and navy's modernisation cannot be done in a year though, but the army's modernisation must be complete to a certain extent, in a year's time, before we even think about going to war. For victory: Barely manageable = Sept 2021. Acceptable = Sept 2022. Overwhelming superiority = Sept 2023. Today: Only a stalemate.
 
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