Corvettes of Indian Navy : News and Discussions

[Fatalis]

This seems interesting:

Naval Group India

Naval Group India, which was established as DCNS India, a subsidiary, has a goal of creating defence solutions for India by Make in India initiatives with Indian MSMEs.

www.india.naval-group.com

I didn't know that Naval Group was associated with the P-28 project.

 

[Ashwin]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1682766565375356929

Decommissioned

 

[Fatalis]

Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) accorded AoN for procurement of Next Generation Corvettes (NGC) at an estimated cost of approx. 36,000cr in June 2022. GRSE’s in its Q4FY23 investor call mentioned that the shipyard expects RFP to be released in second half of calendar year 2024, MDL in its Q1FY24 call has stated that the RFP is expected around the end of this year, it isn’t clear if it is the end of calendar year or the fiscal year. The project is expected to be divided between two shipyards with L1 getting 5 and L2 receiving 3 hulls.

 

[marich01]

Oh they mean fiscal year most of the times. 2nd half of the year means almost certainly towards end part of the calendar year. Currently this being within 12-18 months of election means you can not get clear picture on which project may get priority for completion (paperwork wise, approval, order placing etc).

 

[Fatalis]

Someone mentioned that Kamorta class was seen carrying a VLS. Anyone having any pictures of the same?

@marich01

 

[marich01]

Someone mentioned that Kamorta class was seen carrying a VLS. Anyone having any pictures of the same?

@marich01

Ships are my weak spot so no idea. Also not sure if vls is so vital for some shallow water craft. Maybe VLsrsam would go into those via vls.

 

[Ashwin]

GRSE will deliver first ASW-SWC this FY. So, Less than 3 years of building time.

 

[Gautam]

GRSE will deliver first ASW-SWC this FY. So, Less than 3 years of building time.

Yes, the 1st ship of the class would be INS Arnala. So, they should be called the Arnala class ASW-SWC boats. But then GRSE & CSL are building different versions of the ASW-SCW ships. GRSE's version of the ASW-SWC ship is bigger that the CSL's version. Wonder if they would be considered the same class of ships or different.

If they manage to stick to their current deadlines, then the 1st ship will be commissioned by December 2023. So less than 2.5 years from being laid down to commissioned.

This is the Navy's largest water-jet powered ship. L&T is probably supplying the water-jet propulsion for these ships.

 

[Ashwin]

Yes, the 1st ship of the class would be INS Arnala. So, they should be called the Arnala class ASW-SWC boats. But then GRSE & CSL are building different versions of the ASW-SCW ships. GRSE's version of the ASW-SWC ship is bigger that the CSL's version. Wonder if they would be considered the same class of ships or different.

If they manage to stick to their current deadlines, then the 1st ship will be commissioned by December 2023. So less than 2.5 years from being laid down to commissioned.

This is the Navy's largest water-jet powered ship. L&T is probably supplying the water-jet propulsion for these ships.

Different classes as physical characteristics are different.

Last investor call they said delivery by March not December. All eight will be delivered by August 2027.

CSL ASW-SWC are delayed. Germans are yet to ship engines. High level of engagement to fix the issue ongoing.

 

[Fatalis]

Yes, the 1st ship of the class would be INS Arnala. So, they should be called the Arnala class ASW-SWC boats. But then GRSE & CSL are building different versions of the ASW-SCW ships. GRSE's version of the ASW-SWC ship is bigger that the CSL's version. Wonder if they would be considered the same class of ships or different.

If they manage to stick to their current deadlines, then the 1st ship will be commissioned by December 2023. So less than 2.5 years from being laid down to commissioned.

This is the Navy's largest water-jet powered ship. L&T is probably supplying the water-jet propulsion for these ships.

I think GRSE has signed an MoU with Konsenberg for the water jet.

 

[Gautam]

Different classes as physical characteristics are different.

So, different class names?

Last investor call they said delivery by March not December. All eight will be delivered by August 2027.

Still not bad.

CSL ASW-SWC are delayed. Germans are yet to ship engines. High level of engagement to fix the issue ongoing.

Where is GRSE getting their engines from? The locally manufactured Pielstick 16 PA6 STC?

The Germans are also not supplying engines for the Zorawar tanks. Very reliable supplier they are. Would be very funny if they won the submarine tender & somehow couldn't supply the engines for that either.

I think GRSE has signed an MoU with Konsenberg for the water jet.

Really?

L&T is involved with GRSE on this program. The extent of their co-operation isn't known. L&T did showcase their water-jet propulsion at a previous DefExpo event. So, I thought that must be their contribution to this project.

 

[Ashwin]

So, different class names?

Still not bad.

Where is GRSE getting their engines from? The locally manufactured Pielstick 16 PA6 STC?

The Germans are also not supplying engines for the Zorawar tanks. Very reliable supplier they are. Would be very funny if they won the submarine tender & somehow couldn't supply the engines for that either.

Really?

L&T is involved with GRSE on this program. The extent of their co-operation isn't known. L&T did showcase their water-jet propulsion at a previous DefExpo event. So, I thought that must be their contribution to this project.

Zorawar will be using cummins. L&T is just a hull sub contractor for this corvette thats all.

 

[Ashwin]

The Navy has set a target of completing the design in two-three years for new ships like the eight Next Generation Corvettes (NGCs), okayed by the Defence Acquisition Council at a cost of Rs 36,000 crore. The MoD, in June 2022, said: “NGCs would be constructed based on new in-house design of Indian Navy using latest technology of ship building.” The target to make an NGC from keel-laying to commissioning is four years.

 

[Ashwin]

One NGC will cost us $540 million. For comparison Type 31 frigate costs <$400 million. Even the new batch of talwar class costs is around $500 million.

Maybe the actual cost after bids will be lesser I suppose. But will definitely as capable as a frigate.

 

[Gautam]

One NGC will cost us $540 million.

Wiki says $460 million per ship. Where are you getting that $540 mill figure from?

MoD should increase the order quantity if they want to lower cost. Shipbuilding cannot grow beyond a certain level with piecemeal orders.

For comparison Type 31 frigate costs <$400 million.

They are building 10 of those ships. Also, the proposed NGC is more heavily armed than the Type 31.

Even the new batch of talwar class costs is around $500 million.

The proposed NGC will outgun the Talwar class frigates as well. NGCs will offer better bang-per-buck than the Talwar. Yet we are getting 10 of the Talwars & just 7-8 of the NGCs. It doesn't make sense.

Also, why is this ship classified as a corvette? Its outgunning our frigates.

Given the displacement of the NGC I assumed this ship would be based on the Kamorta class corvettes. But some reports are saying that the Navy wants MF-STAR or an equivalent radar on the NGC. Now I feel the design would be based on the Nilgiri class.

 

[Ashwin]

Wiki says $460 million per ship. Where are you getting that $540 mill figure from?

MoD should increase the order quantity if they want to lower cost. Shipbuilding cannot grow beyond a certain level with piecemeal orders.

They are building 10 of those ships. Also, the proposed NGC is more heavily armed than the Type 31.

Cost is from above article. Why are you looking at wiki when you do it yourself. its Rs 36,000 cr.

Eight is not a piecemeal by any means. They already increased the number from 7 and split it in to two shipyards. Also, when did increase in number ever deceased cost? That never happened in indian shipbuilding.

Also, no Type 31 is 30-40% bigger in size and similarly armed.

Dont go by NGC spec and equipment by wiki. RFI didnt say brahmos or MFSTAR.

 

[Ashwin]

Next Generation Offshore Patrol Vessels

The contract for acquisition of 11 Next Generation Offshore Patrol Vessels under Buy (Indian-IDDM) category was signed with Goa Shipyard Ltd (GSL) and Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers (GRSE), Kolkata at a total cost of Rs 9,781 crore. Of the 11 ships, seven will be indigenously designed, developed & manufactured by GSL and four by GRSE. The delivery of the ships is scheduled to commence from September 2026.

Next Generation Missile Vessels

The contract for acquisition of six Next Generation Missile Vessels (NGMV) was signed with Cochin Shipyard Limited (CSL) at a cost of Rs 9,805 crore. The delivery of ships is scheduled to commence from March 2027. The NGMVs would be heavily armed war vessels incorporating stealth, high speed and offensive capability. The primary role of the ships would be to provide offensive capability against enemy warship, merchantmen and land targets.

Compare the per ship cost numbers with NGMV and NGOPV. Why the huge difference?

Im thinking NGC will be a mini Nilgiri-class with top of the line sensors and armaments. Israeli equipment could be the culprit here.

 

[randomradio]

The proposed NGC will outgun the Talwar class frigates as well. NGCs will offer better bang-per-buck than the Talwar. Yet we are getting 10 of the Talwars & just 7-8 of the NGCs. It doesn't make sense.

Also, why is this ship classified as a corvette? Its outgunning our frigates.

Talwar has all the characteristics of a frigate. NGC's final form is still unknown. It depends on whether the ship will come only with VL-SRSAM or will include Barak 8. With the former, it will be a corvette. Of course, core capabilities may exceed the Talwar class, but Talwar is over 25 years old tech.

Similarly, the Russian Gorshkov class is considered a frigate, but significantly surpasses the armament of our P-15B. The first few ships have 16 cells for heavy weapons, the next 2 or so will have 24 and will be raised to 32. A follow-on modernisation will have the same DWT as the P-15B and will carry 48-64 cells for Brahmos-class missiles. So these things don't go by fixed definitions.

Our P-15 class ships are merely based on 25-30 year designs. So it's not surprising that newer ship designs far surpass it and Talwar, even if the ships are of the same DWT.

Anyway, by classifying the ships as corvettes only means the IN can buy frigate class ships under the corvette designation and enhance their capabilities using semantics. The IN is currently sanctioned 15 destroyers, 24 frigates and 35 corvettes. And of the frigates, the Shivaliks and Nilgiris are similar in capability to destroyers. So having a few corvettes similar in capability to frigates is not surprising. There will be some differences though, which are typically mission-specific.

As for numbers, it depends on the size of the budget and the ability of the shipyards to deliver both numbers and in time. Buying more ships without the building capacity would result in the induction of outdated ships, necessecitating immediate upgrades, like what we are doing with Scorpene. But the IN can always buy a A and a B model later on. You see that with both P-15 and P-17.

 

[randomradio]

Compare the per ship cost numbers with NGMV and NGOPV. Why the huge difference?

Im thinking NGC will be a mini Nilgiri-class with top of the line sensors and armaments. Israeli equipment could be the culprit here.

NGOPV has limited armament. It's not a warfighting ship.

NGMV does not have ASW and only has point defense capabilities. It's primarily meant for dealing with surface targets only.

NGC is an NGMV with ASW. If it comes with Barak 8, then it's pretty much a frigate.

 

[Gautam]

Eight is not a piecemeal by any means. They already increased the number from 7 and split it in to two shipyards.

IN still has 4 Kora class corvettes, 2 Khukri class corvettes & 1 Abhay class corvette in service. That's 7 corvettes to be retired starting say 5-7 years from now. Kamorta class corvettes are likely to continue in service for at least another 2 decades.

So, with the 8 ships of the NGC project will effectively increase our fleet strength by 1 ship. Looks pretty piecemeal to me.

lso, when did increase in number ever deceased cost? That never happened in indian shipbuilding.

Because we order additional units not when the construction is running but when construction has ended. Look at the Kalvari class for example. Why couldn't we order additional units a few years ago? It was pretty clear even then that the P-75I is going to be dragging along for a while.

Also, no Type 31 is 30-40% bigger in size and similarly armed.

Dont go by NGC spec and equipment by wiki. RFI didnt say brahmos or MFSTAR.

What are they going to equip it with? Nirbhay/ITCM's naval variant isn't ready, LR-LACM is out of question, NASM-MR hasn't been tested yet. What other options exists?

Import Exocet or Clubs?

Im thinking NGC will be a mini Nilgiri-class with top of the line sensors and armaments. Israeli equipment could be the culprit here.

The Navy is really set on the Kolkata based design aren't they? MF-STAR is being used on 3 different ship classes. DRDO's LR-MFR is likely going to be bigger than the MF-STAR. So, in the future, either the Navy has to give up on the P-15A design or there has to be a version of the LR-MFR that is about the size of the MF-STAR.

Talwar has all the characteristics of a frigate.

It is a frigate.

Similarly, the Russian Gorshkov class is considered a frigate, but significantly surpasses the armament of our P-15B. The first few ships have 16 cells for heavy weapons, the next 2 or so will have 24 and will be raised to 32. A follow-on modernisation will have the same DWT as the P-15B and will carry 48-64 cells for Brahmos-class missiles. So these things don't go by fixed definitions.

I still believe that the P-15B could carry a comparable load. There is enough space for it. But for that the Navy has to stop putting RBU-6000s on every new ship. They could place the RBUs elsewhere. Just leave the foredeck free.

Anyway, by classifying the ships as corvettes only means the IN can buy frigate class ships under the corvette designation and enhance their capabilities using semantics. The IN is currently sanctioned 15 destroyers, 24 frigates and 35 corvettes. And of the frigates, the Shivaliks and Nilgiris are similar in capability to destroyers. So having a few corvettes similar in capability to frigates is not surprising. There will be some differences though, which are typically mission-specific.

This might be true. Been suspecting the same ever since the Nilgiri class design was made public.