Future Combat Air System (FCAS) - France/Germany

I am extremely skeptical about the SCAF. The Germans will kill it one way or another. Either they cancel it on their side because they'll deem they're not getting enough, or they'll force France to cancel it by demanding too much, or they get what they want and as a result the NGF is utterly useless, a Eurofighter-like lemon that'll cost twice as much as it should and has nearly zero operational interest. In any case, the Rafale will have to remain in service as the spearhead of French forces until a true successor is designed for it -- and it won't be the NGF. Just look at the dates: the aircraft the NGF will actually replace will be the Mirage 2000 (which is scheduled to be fully retired in 2035). The real Rafale replacement will be the generation after that; hopefully one designed without German incompetence to gum up the works.

For the Rafale there was a slide from the French air force showing that major standards F5, F6, and F7 were already roughly scheduled, bringing continuous Rafale upgrades until the 2060s.
Even in the case of a german draw back, all the R&D work will be fully usefull for the french side only, because we are the one in west europe to have the know how to built from scratch a world class fighter.

And I'm quite sure a small team in Dassault is working on the plan B.... or B' .... or B'' for 2035/2040 (ie a stealthier Rafale for Export, or a slighly bigger Rafale also for export or a 30% bigger Rafale child to replace SCAF)
 
I think that the probability of doing it alone is greater than the probability of doing it in cooperation with the Germans because the latter probability is zero.

True. But I'm talking about the amount of money involved.

Also I believe France may run another program for near-space capabilities, in order to counter the Mig-41. Probably. So it will make sense to cooperate in one while going solo in the higher end one.
 

Germany, Spain and France want to jointly get the new European fighter jet into the air. Internally, the Bundeswehr says it is a Paris-dominated project that the other two should pay for. Moreover, they say, there are hardly any "innovative technological approaches." The flagship project for a joint European fighter jet is meeting with reservations, according to "Spiegel." In a secret statement for the Defense Ministry, experts from the German Armed Forces Procurement Office in Koblenz conclude that the contract with France and Spain "needs to be renegotiated from a technical and economic point of view," according to the news magazine. In its current form, the experts consider the contract "not ready for signing."

There is a "significant risk that critical technologies will not be matured, will not be matured in time or will not be matured to a sufficient degree," and thus the timelines cannot be met, "Spiegel" quoted from the paper. "Innovative technology approaches" are "hardly recognizable" anyway. There is thus a risk "that essential technologies will either not be considered at all or only in later phases and then cannot be financed."

"French dominance"

After months of wrangling, Germany, France and Spain had agreed in principle in mid-May on how to proceed with the FCAS air combat system. German Chancellor Angela Merkel and French President Emmanuel Macron then announced agreement at the beginning of the week on the development of the new fighter jet, which is to succeed the Eurofighter and the French Rafale from around 2040.

According to the experts, the treaty perpetuates "structures and rules" that "are not in Germany's interest and almost exclusively satisfy French positions," "Spiegel" further quotes from the report. Thus, the "French dominance in the program is very strongly anchored."

According to the magazine, a secret status report from the German Ministry of Defense last week came to a similar conclusion. It said the "strong French positioning" would result in missing the goal of "developing a 6th generation fighter aircraft" and instead turn the project into a "Rafale-Plus approach with German and Spanish budgetary resources."
 
Long time no see.


Germany, Spain and France want to jointly get the new European fighter jet into the air. Internally, the Bundeswehr says it is a Paris-dominated project that the other two should pay for. Moreover, they say, there are hardly any "innovative technological approaches." The flagship project for a joint European fighter jet is meeting with reservations, according to "Spiegel." In a secret statement for the Defense Ministry, experts from the German Armed Forces Procurement Office in Koblenz conclude that the contract with France and Spain "needs to be renegotiated from a technical and economic point of view," according to the news magazine. In its current form, the experts consider the contract "not ready for signing."

There is a "significant risk that critical technologies will not be matured, will not be matured in time or will not be matured to a sufficient degree," and thus the timelines cannot be met, "Spiegel" quoted from the paper. "Innovative technology approaches" are "hardly recognizable" anyway. There is thus a risk "that essential technologies will either not be considered at all or only in later phases and then cannot be financed."

"French dominance"

After months of wrangling, Germany, France and Spain had agreed in principle in mid-May on how to proceed with the FCAS air combat system. German Chancellor Angela Merkel and French President Emmanuel Macron then announced agreement at the beginning of the week on the development of the new fighter jet, which is to succeed the Eurofighter and the French Rafale from around 2040.

According to the experts, the treaty perpetuates "structures and rules" that "are not in Germany's interest and almost exclusively satisfy French positions," "Spiegel" further quotes from the report. Thus, the "French dominance in the program is very strongly anchored."

According to the magazine, a secret status report from the German Ministry of Defense last week came to a similar conclusion. It said the "strong French positioning" would result in missing the goal of "developing a 6th generation fighter aircraft" and instead turn the project into a "Rafale-Plus approach with German and Spanish budgetary resources."

Looks like the pro-American lobby is in full swing.
 
I am extremely skeptical about the SCAF. The Germans will kill it one way or another. Either they cancel it on their side because they'll deem they're not getting enough, or they'll force France to cancel it by demanding too much, or they get what they want and as a result the NGF is utterly useless, a Eurofighter-like lemon that'll cost twice as much as it should and has nearly zero operational interest.
Are we going to scenario 1? Or is this just the prelude to scenario 2?
 

Will the FCAS and Tempest jet programs merge? Germany’s top Air Force officer hopes so.​


CONSTANTA, Romania — European nations are pursuing two separate programs to build sixth-generation aircraft and a bevy of advanced systems within the next two decades, but at least one lead Air Force official hopes the efforts will merge.
The Franco-German-Spanish Future Combat Air System, or FCAS, program is about to launch the next phase of its research and development effort this fall, which is around the same time Team Tempest — led by the United Kingdom and including Italy and Sweden — hopes to kick off a new R&D phase.
Both are years away from a flight-ready demonstrator aircraft. In the meantime, the German Air Force chief of staff said he has spoken to his Italian and British counterparts about possibly combining efforts.
“It can be that we go on different tracks. Hopefully we will merge eventually,” Lt. Gen. Ingo Gerhartz said in an exclusive interview with Defense news en route to Berlin, Germany, from Mihail Kogălniceanu International Airport outside of Constanta, Romania.
Gerhartz noted that the operational impetus behind the Tempest program is “exactly the same as what we think will be important in 2040-plus.” Both efforts will result in a sixth-generation fighter jet with new engines, advanced sensors and weapons, increased automation, and the ability to manipulate unmanned systems and coordinate with existing platforms.
 

Will the FCAS and Tempest jet programs merge? Germany’s top Air Force officer hopes so.​


CONSTANTA, Romania — European nations are pursuing two separate programs to build sixth-generation aircraft and a bevy of advanced systems within the next two decades, but at least one lead Air Force official hopes the efforts will merge.
The Franco-German-Spanish Future Combat Air System, or FCAS, program is about to launch the next phase of its research and development effort this fall, which is around the same time Team Tempest — led by the United Kingdom and including Italy and Sweden — hopes to kick off a new R&D phase.
Both are years away from a flight-ready demonstrator aircraft. In the meantime, the German Air Force chief of staff said he has spoken to his Italian and British counterparts about possibly combining efforts.
“It can be that we go on different tracks. Hopefully we will merge eventually,” Lt. Gen. Ingo Gerhartz said in an exclusive interview with Defense news en route to Berlin, Germany, from Mihail Kogălniceanu International Airport outside of Constanta, Romania.
Gerhartz noted that the operational impetus behind the Tempest program is “exactly the same as what we think will be important in 2040-plus.” Both efforts will result in a sixth-generation fighter jet with new engines, advanced sensors and weapons, increased automation, and the ability to manipulate unmanned systems and coordinate with existing platforms.

Seems like a negotiations tactic to get more concessions from the French on FCAS.
 
French defence victory could mean a defeat for European co-operation

UAE Rafale deal tips balance of power in combat air systems project to Paris

Peggy Hollinger

The French defence industry had two reasons to celebrate when the United Arab Emirates agreed to buy 80 Rafale fighters from Dassault Aviation last month.

First, it was sweet revenge for last autumn's humiliation when Australia walked away from a submarine deal in favour of an alliance with the US. There must have been a shiver of satisfaction in Paris when Abu Dhabi, days after agreeing to buy the French fighter, suspended talks with the US on buying the Lockheed Martin F-35.

Secondly, the UAE order - worth an estimated €14 billion - will guarantee the production of the Rafale until 2031, as well as the work of more than 400 French companies in the supply chain.

It will also help finance France's investment in future upgrades to the Rafale, which is now expected to be in service until the 2050s.

Yet while the deal has many advantages from a French perspective, it risks destabilising Europe's defence collaboration efforts. For it strengthens Dassault's hand in the still difficult negotiations with the German-based Airbus defence division on Europe's proposed Future Combat Air System (FCAS).

The last time Dassault - and by extension the French Ministry of Defence - felt it was not getting what it needed from a European combat programme, it walked away. The result was Dassault's Rafale.

Launched in 2017 by former German chancellor Angela Merkel and French president Emmanuel Macron, the FCAS was an overtly political project. It showed the determination of both countries to strengthen Europe's sovereign military capability after Britain's exit from the EU. In 2019, Spain joined the programme.

The problems started when politicians handed it over to industry. From the start, it was marked by squabbles over technology sharing and leadership of the most critical parts of the programme. The fights were exacerbated by fundamentally different ideas of what collaboration meant.

"French collaboration ensures that you get the most effective result," usually under French leadership, says one European defence official. "In Germany, it's partly about the best athlete, but it's also about sharing the industrial work."

The project has also brought together two bitter rivals - Dassault and Airbus Defence and Space. But last year it seemed that Europe's political ambitions had taken over. Agreement on the basic principles was reached and industrial agreements were reached on six of the project's seven pillars, covering manned and unmanned aircraft, space and ground-based communications, advanced stealth technologies, artificial intelligence and more.

But divisions remain over the seventh pillar - the next-generation fighter itself - and there is no sign of imminent compromise. Both sides have logical reasons to dig in their heels. Dassault, the standard-bearer for French sovereignty in fighter aircraft, argues that it should develop and manage the crucial flight control system itself, for example. But Germany naturally expects its industry to have access to the technology, having pledged billions for the project.

It is in this context that the UAE Rafale deal could tip the balance, argues Francis Tusa, consultant and editor of the Defence Analysis newsletter. "It has changed the equation," he says. "France no longer needs Germany. The profits they will make from the UAE deal will fund the Rafale upgrades."

"The project's days are numbered unless the Germans understand where they stand in the pecking order," adds Tusa. "They are not equal in terms of industrial capacity."

Meanwhile, the new German government's plans to codify into law the country's tighter restrictions on arms exports - potentially limiting them to NATO and the EU - add to the tensions. Such constraints on exports "would be a killer," said a French defence official.

It would be a blow to Europe's defence ambitions if France chose to withdraw again from a European combatant. It would also be a setback for Macron, who has favoured collaboration during the French EU presidency. But presidential elections are looming in April and the Dassault family doesn't just control a key French defence company. It owns the politically influential newspaper Le Figaro.

Ultimately, while only politicians on both sides can resolve the impasse, it may have to wait until France goes to the polls. But the longer the impasse continues, the greater the risk that Europe's last test of cooperation will begin to crumble.

[email protected]
 
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So France & Dassault are all set to go their own way & invest possibly 100 billion euros into their own exclusive 6th Generation program?
It's not decided but it's our evaluation of the situation.
You have to take into account that if we develop the programme on our own it will cost 50 billions instead of 100.
And the expense is on 15 years minimum. And thanks to the Rafale we are saving a lot of money since it has allowed us to divide our fleet of aircraft by 3.
 
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It's an English analysis, you can't be too demanding.
I don't know why you posted it. UAE was a good sale and a bigger pool for Rafale updates. It isn't the same pot of money as the FACS, which will be paid by the French gov, won't it?
For FACS, have they settled the first plan for 100m and is this the funding for $5b. That the current negotiations are about? Until that money is paid, it's not hard for Germany to walk away. I can hear the French scream of stab in the back and withdrawing the ambassador. As they did with Australia when we didn't proceed with the sub. They do like to throw a tantrum
 
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