Future Combat Air System (FCAS) - France/Germany
- Thread starter randomradio
- Start date
The ACC for Rafale was always meant to happen.
Anyway, Germany and Sweden can collaborate. Both have the same restrictions in who they sell to.
@Picdelamirand-oil
Attracting India's attention with Espadon would be more interesting. Modernised AMCA collaboration would become easier too, could be made ready 20 years before (2040) whatever comes out of Espadon becomes available.
Probably the best news for France ! We have all the technology, the germans not.
About the fighter of the SCAF whole system the germans want a far too big share seeing their skills, and they put Spain in the game with a 33% share !
An the other hand, they decided not to study the future main battle tanks with KNDS, but also with Rheinmetal ! And now they decided to put on the market another version of Leo2, twith a high risk of drying the market af the MGS !
Add Tiger mk3, MAWS etc... failures.
STOP !
Exactly, you need a guaranteed market to sell to, not a partner to develop with.
Which is also why I'm not a huge fan of India developing something with France, unless it's for managing costs.
The Panther versus MGS is no different from Rafale versus SCAF from German PoV.
The F-35 purchase is a definite red flag for SCAF. It's like if France bought K2 tanks this year.
But the problem is if Germany does not get to be part of either European program, then they will buy more F-35s and further weaken France's influence in the EU. With 150+ F-35's, they can get quite a bit of production, enough to also become a partner in the program.
1) they will NEVER have a 33% share as expected in SCAF.
2) a partner? All the good places are already taken.
3) F35 is a bad born bird. I'm afraid of anothr F104 story, in Switzerland, Belgium, Finland....
Yeah, it's impossible for them to be a 33% partner, but the Germans can ask for their own version, like the Israelis. And 150-200 would give them significant amounts of production. If not, you will have to suggest an alternative.
Israel is a special case.
Germany, as UK, Australia... will have the legacy model. Nothing more.
150 to 200 birds? It is a too weak bird for a proper air dominance. F35 is at roots a CAS fighter. They need another real fighter (as Israel with F15)
A (confirmed ???) news about main battle tank in Europe, with a direct affect on SCAF :
An agreement seemed to have been found between Germany, Spain, Italy ans Sweden about the improvement of Leo2.
This may be another big nail in the MGS coffin.
No MGS => No NGF (the fighter of the SCAF program)
An agreement seemed to have been found between Germany, Spain, Italy ans Sweden about the improvement of Leo2.
This may be another big nail in the MGS coffin.
No MGS => No NGF (the fighter of the SCAF program)
But if Germany leaves SCAF and is not allowed into GCAP, then they have no choice but to rely only on the F-35. What else do you think is the alternative?
I'd say only Sweden is left.
It's not a good idea for France to quit MGS just 'cause the Germans are making stopgap arrangements though. MGS is for the future, post 2040. It will replace a lot of existing tanks, and even the new improved tanks being bought today. Countries will be buying MGS even in 2060. Unlike fighters, tanks have a much longer market dominance.
The germans will take their times : they have the Leo2 assembly line open, and want to take the maximum market share possible. So for them there is no hurry to have MGS.
France don't have a MBT assembly line, and too few Leclerc to upgrade.
I think Germany expect France to purchase Leo2.... (why not if they purchase Rafale for exemple...LOL). And for them MGS is now mainly a new technology R&D effort, 50% paid by France.
It's not satisfactory for France. We don't have the german time. Sole positiv point : it seems that France top brass are now aware of the situation and where the germans want to drive us.
Yeah, but the MGS is at least 15 years away. Any business deal before MGS should go to the Leo 2, it will benefit France as well, by making MGS cheaper. In the meantime, while MGS is being developed alongside SCAF, Germany selling Leo 2s is the same as France selling Rafales. I don't see any difference here. In the future, all those Rafale customers can become SCAF customers after all. And all the Leo 2 customers will buy MGS.
If France has an immediate need, then you should buy some K2, it will piss the Germans off. It's the equivalent of Germany going for the F-35. "If you buy the F-35, then we'll buy K2. But if you buy Rafale, we will buy Leo 2." Pretty good idea right there.
While I agree with France's problems with SCAF and the unreliability of the Germans in this field, it's almost the opposite when it comes to tanks. It doesn't make sense for Europe to go for different tank designs.
Unlike fighter jets, all this ego-driven agenda will ensure Europe can't afford a tank army rivalling the Russians in the future. Europe's gonna need 4000-5000 active duty tanks going forward.
lol
www.thetimes.co.uk
lmao
Germany may abandon €100bn fighter jet project with France
Germany is considering abandoning its flagship €100 billion future combat jet project with France and joining a rival programme with Britain instead, The Times
www.thetimes.co.uk
lmao
GCAP won't have them after the Saudi Typhoon fiasco.
Don't worry. I think that the saoudis know already that Stolz won't go with the GCAP.lol
Germany may abandon €100bn fighter jet project with France
Germany is considering abandoning its flagship €100 billion future combat jet project with France and joining a rival programme with Britain instead, The Times
lmao
If the Germans leave SCAF and now that we're out of FGFA program with the Russians, should we join the French SCAF program and develop our 6th gen fighter in co-development with them? @randomradio, @vstol Jockey, @Picdelamirand-oil what's your take on this?