GTRE Kaveri Engine

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India: Safran anticipates a possible second Rafale order by signing an agreement with HAL
BY LAURENT LAGNEAU - FEBRUARY 8, 2021

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Inde : Safran anticipe une possible commande d'un second lot de Rafale en signant un accord avec HAL - Zone Militaire

Selon le ministre indien de la Défense, Rajnath Singh, l'Indian Air Force devrait disposer des 36 avions Rafale commandés en 2015 d'ici avril 2022.
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According to Indian Defense Minister Rajnath Singh, the Indian Air Force [IAF] should have all 36 Rafale aircraft ordered in 2015 by April 2022. So far, 11 have been delivered and six more will be delivered in March. After that, what will New Delhi decide to do to reinforce its combat aviation, in a context marked by tensions with Islamabad and Beijing?

For the moment, the order for 83 LCA Tejas fighter jets from Hindustan Aeronautics Limited [HAL] has been confirmed. But this is still a long way from the 450 new aircraft that the IAF must procure in the coming years.


In total, and taking into account the 36 Rafales currently being delivered, the IAF intends to field 200 LCA Tejas, 114 aircraft from the MRFA [multi-role fighter aircraft] program and 100 examples of the future Advance Medium Combat Aircraft [AMCA], a fifth-generation fighter-bomber developed by HAL, for which there is talk of developing a powerful 110-kN thrust engine.

One of the scenarios regularly put forward is the ordering of a second batch of Rafales. Will it happen, given that Dassault Aviation's aircraft is in the running for the MRFA program, which is also coveted by Lockheed-Martin [F-21], Boeing [F/A-18 Super Hornet or F-15EX], the Eurofighter consortium and Saab [Gripen E/F]?

In any case, French engine manufacturer Safran Aircraft Engines is preparing for such an eventuality. On February 5, it announced that it had signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) with HAL to establish cooperation in the field of military aircraft propulsion. Two projects are on the table: the first concerns the Rafale's M88 engine, should New Delhi order a second batch [or retain it as part of the MRFA program], and the second concerns the future MCAA engine.

"Under the terms of the MoU, HAL and Safran Aircraft Engines intend to explore opportunities to assemble the Safran M88 engine and manufacture engine components with HAL for an additional batch of Rafale aircraft for India, as well as any M88-equipped aircraft manufactured in India by HAL," explains the French manufacturer, which speaks of a "transfer of a significant amount of technology."

The memorandum of understanding also "covers a partnership between HAL and Safran Aircraft Engines for local programs related to the design and development of 110-kN high-thrust engines, with the transfer of key technologies as part of this development. So we understand that this is about engines for MCAA.

"We look forward to expanding our partnership with HAL, exploring opportunities in strategic areas. We remain committed to supporting the 'Make in India' policy through major investments, industrial synergies and the creation of highly skilled jobs," said Jean-Paul Alary, CEO of Safran Aircraft Engines.

HAL CEO MR Madhavan said his group and Safran "wish to explore strategic business cooperation opportunities that leverage the complementary talents and capabilities of the parties and support the development of a robust aircraft engine ecosystem in India, in line with the objectives of the Indian government's 'Make in India' program."

In its statement, Safran Aircraft Engines stresses the importance of this agreement, as it will enable India "to access highly complex niche technologies mastered by very few countries in the world and to strengthen its capabilities in the design and development of high-thrust engines." Especially in light of India's future combat aviation needs.
 
Not entirely Kaveri related, but an interesting read
The Kaveri programme has been shelved except for the possibility of using the engine for the Ghatak armed drone.

There's a sudden roar of jet engines in the air. What is fuelling it is India's airpower expansion plan and a pressing need for engines of required power for its homemade fighters.

Last week, US defence aircraft major Boeing announced in New Delhi that the company anticipates business worth $3.6 billion, benefitting the Indian aerospace and defence industry over the next 10 years, with the F/ A-18 Super Hornet as India's next naval carrier-based fighter. French major Dassault Aviation has pitched its Rafale-M jets against the US's Super Hornet.
In the first week of July, Olivier Andries, CEO of France's Safran Group, met defence minister Rajnath Singh in New Delhi and apprised him of his company's long-term goal for the joint development and production of advanced jet engines. Safran-one of the major original equipment manufacturers (OEM) of military and commercial jet engines in the world-makes engines for the Rafale jets. Its Snecma M88 engine, used in Indian Rafales, has a maximum thrust of about 75kN (kilonewtons).
The Indian Air Force (IAF) has opened its hunt for 114 multi-role fighters while the Navy needs approximately 30 carrier-based fighter jets. Their combined value? Some $20 billion. The IAF also requires close to 600 India-made fighters for its fleet, all of which would require over 2,300 engines, assuming a spare ratio of 1.5 engines/ installed engine. Moreover, the Sukhoi fleet of 282 jets will also go in for engine retrofit in the years to come. Importing all these engines will involve a significant spend of India's foreign exchange.

This immense business opportunity has global aerospace players making a beeline for India with jet engine technology, which has been closely guarded so far. And the fiercest contest is between the US and France. Foreign players are willing to sell or indigenise their products to meet Indian requirements, but their offers are conditional on large orders.

India has proved its mettle in developing nuclear submarines or aircraft carriers or even fighter jets, but any progress in combat jet engine development has remained elusive. India's quest for combat jet engines has been fraught since the days of the first indigenous jet fighter, the HF-24 Marut in the 1960s. The same issue has dogged the Tejas LCA (light combat aircraft) programme and the ongoing development of a fifth-generation Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).

Very few countries-the US, France, the UK and Russia-have succeeded in mastering the complex technologies needed to produce engines for combat aircraft. China is still using Russian engines for its J-20 fighters due to the lack of required thrust in its own WS-10 engines that were developed with a massive budget. Since 1986, India has developed nine prototypes of its Kaveri engine, which have failed to meet the required parameters to power a fighter. The Defence Research and Development Organisation's 'Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), tasked to develop the Kaveri engine, has been unable to deliver one that could power the LCA despite a cost overrun of 642 per cent and a delay of about 13 years', the Comptroller and Auditor General noted in its report released in 2011.
India's mainstay LCA Tejas flies on American General Electric (GE) F404 engines, and the Tejas Mk2 and AMCA, now under development, will be powered by GE's F414 engines. IAF would require nothing less than 170 Tejas Mk2, which is equivalent to six squadrons. In addition, it has also agreed to induct seven squadrons of AMCA. GE is expected to set up a plant in India to manufacture F414 engines in collaboration with HAL and other private players. The company has agreed to transfer manufacturing technology and production engines but is awaiting the US government's nod. The Super Hornet is powered by two GE F414-400 afterburning turbofan engines while the French Rafale-M will have Safran's M88 engine. But India's military planners believe if the country is looking at jets for 20 years, it needs to take an immediate call on engine manufacturing.

"You cannot design an aircraft and then go hunting for an engine. It has to be a close association between engine manufacturers and aircraft designers. And if you do it independently, the mismatch will always be there," says a key defence official.

For the Tejas, the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) had to settle for GE F404 engines (90kN), reducing the aircraft's payload and range. Similarly, the GE F414 engine with 95-98kN power thrust, planned for Tejas Mk2, is sub-optimal for the IAF's specifications in the medium-weight fighter class of 15-18-tonne range-to enable a 5-tonne combat payload and a range of 600 km on internal fuel, says a key IAF official, who was in the LCA's development team.

The ADA, also the developer of AMCA, is looking for 110 kN thrust-which is not yet available globally-to meet the requirements of supercruise features in its upgraded version, the AMCA Mk2. It is expected to go into production from 2035 onwards. The LCA Mk2 is supposed to replace the IAF's 16 fighter squadrons, including three of Mirage 2000, five of the MiG-29s, six of the Jaguar strike aircraft and the two remaining MiG-21 Bison squadrons. With this calculation, IAF is looking at a combat strength of about 40 squadrons by 2040.

After Kaveri's failure, the LCA makers had no option but to turn to foreign engines. In 2005, GTRE sought a foreign hand for the co-development with an international engine-house for a 90kN class engine. But the plan never worked. In 2012, France offered complete transfer of technology (ToT) for a redesign and fixing of the Kaveri engine to fit into the LCA Tejas. But the deal could not go through due to its high price.
T. Mohan Rao, the former head of GTRE, who was closely involved in the Kaveri project, says, "We had reached up to achieving 70 per cent of technology, but for the remaining, we required handholding by a foreign player." Though there are nearly 40 aircraft manufacturers in the world, only three countries-the US, Russia and France-have the technology to completely design, develop and produce military aircraft engines, he adds. The Kaveri programme has been shelved except for the possibility of using the engine for the Ghatak armed drone.

Interestingly, the US has revived its earlier proposal for collaboration on jet engine technology under the India-US Defence Trade and Technology Initiative, which was suspended in October 2019 owing to American reluctance to share technology. Tata is already in partnership with GE to produce parts for a civilian jet engine.

Similarly, France's Safran has already partnered with Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) to make the indigenous Shakti engine for helicopters. Days after the Rafale deal in 2015, Safran pitched a technology transfer of engines as part of the offset clause, but it didn't take off. British firm Rolls-Royce, which has allied with HAL, is now keen on the co-development of a 110 kN engine for the AMCA. Kishore Jayaraman, president, India and South Asia, Rolls-Royce, says India is a key growing market for the company. "We continue to work closely with the MoD (ministry of defence), DRDO, HAL and the private sector to explore opportunities to create in India products and solutions for the Indian defence sector," he adds.

Safran offers complete ToT for design, development and manufacture at close to $5 billion. It will provide everything for engine manufacturing, from know-how to certification. Satish Kirtikar, former vice president of Safran Aircraft Engines, claims that India can achieve independence in aircraft engine technology only if it is able to purchase the "knowhow and know-why" from a foreign OEM. But this ToT will come with a heavy price tag. Kirtikar says that private players in India will have a hard time entering the aerospace and defence arenas, justifying huge investments to their boards, with the returns on investments taking at least seven to 10 years to yield any sizeable returns. "Besides, these businesses will require work guarantees over an extended period of time to set up their facilities," he explains.

India's military planners have to make some hard choices: between aatmanirbharta and dependence. Only then will its ambitions take flight.
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Hunt for a jet engine

There's a sudden roar of jet engines in the air. What is fuelling it is India's ...
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Ajay Shuklas report yesterday

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marich01 said:
Catching up late, exciting news
#DRDO Kaveri Dry Variant , has been sent to Russia for High Altitude Trials! It will proceed towards flight trials in test bed (FTB) on the IL-76 flying testbed once trials are complete. This will paveway for integration with Ghatak class UCAV

https://twitter.com/x/status/1583736228612300801
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Finger crossed 🤞 I hope everything goes well and all the testing parameters are achieved.
 
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marich01 said:
Catching up late, exciting news
#DRDO Kaveri Dry Variant , has been sent to Russia for High Altitude Trials! It will proceed towards flight trials in test bed (FTB) on the IL-76 flying testbed once trials are complete. This will paveway for integration with Ghatak class UCAV

https://twitter.com/x/status/1583736228612300801
Click to expand...
This is one of the few defence related things that India has to crack before becoming fully self-reliant. And I know we shall succeed in due time. Indian fighters powered by 100% Indian turbofan engine(s) is my biggest dream.

Also it's amazing how Russia is still so important for us yet some people want India to abandon Russia completely for Uncle Sam, lol.
 
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He means the dry kaveri right which is in Russia/to be sent to Russia for testing? Not the actual one with afterburner?
Too much contradictory news.
 
GTRE budget alone should be 1 billion $ annual separate from every other defence organization budget. It should be on par with nuclear Weapons & Space program. This organization should be provided with all the necessary funds. u can't spend peanuts and expect a Ferrari
 
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South block said:
GTRE budget alone should be 1 billion $ annual separate from every other defence organization budget. It should be on par with nuclear Weapons & Space program. This organization should be provided with all the necessary funds. u can't spend peanuts and expect a Ferrari
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GTRE is one of the 50+ labs of DRDO. Total DRDO budget is less than $3 billion. It will never happen.

Also, these are misplaced assumptions. As we have more access to western high tech stuff this becomes less and less relevant. It's better to use scale of global supply chain and get cheap engines. We can aim for reasonable self sufficiency by focusing on few different classes of military engines. That's all needed.
 
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Ashwin said:
GTRE is one of the 50+ labs of DRDO. Total DRDO budget is less than $3 billion. It will never happen.

Also, these are misplaced assumptions. As we have more access to western high tech stuff this becomes less and less relevant. It's better to use scale of global supply chain and get cheap engines. We can aim for reasonable self sufficiency by focusing on few different classes of military engines. That's all needed.
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Disagree......What happens when global supply chain get's busted or we run out of supplies or we are sanctioned ? Engine technology is the last thing need to be left for the global supply chains...whole budget of DRDO need to go up to 10 B $ at minimum & specially that of GTRE
 
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South block said:
Disagree......What happens when global supply chain get's busted or we run out of supplies or we are sanctioned ? Engine technology is the last thing need to be left for the global supply chains...whole budget of DRDO need to go up to 10 B $ at minimum & specially that of GTRE
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We were under sanction and we had access to reasonably good engines. Its just that it will be off the shelf. Relationship with the west and access to technology is only going to get better from here on. The global supply chain bust only happens when world's most powerful navy is defeated. That just means nothing sophisticated can be produced locally. Every technical hardware you use daily depends on the supply chain. None of those can be made, aero engines are just impossible.

Giving random unreasonable fanboy numbers is not an argument.
 
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