I suppose that's why Dassault released info about Rafale's potential hours per month.
Anyway, with Switzerland, Finland and Canada gone, my hopes for a competitive analysis are gone too unfortunately.
India - France relations.
- Thread starter Gautam
- Start date
I suppose that's why Dassault released info about Rafale's potential hours per month.
Anyway, with Switzerland, Finland and Canada gone, my hopes for a competitive analysis are gone too unfortunately.
Russia is an imperial power, not a colonial power.
They liked to believe they were a colonial power pre-20th century, but were never given that status by other colonial powers. And now that colonial power is a bad term, they are now being called that.
Russia is much more similar to the US than UK or France in that respect. All they did was attack and take over neighbours like any imperial power does, and then they incorporated those lands into their own empire. Otoh, a colonial power segregates a colony from the mainland and does not allow free movement of people and goods between the two.
Can you imagine what would have happened if people could move freely between the UK and the British Raj?
Neocolonialism is very different. It's much more related to imperialism. The weaker power tends to gain more in the relationship in exchange for giving up some sovereignty that favours the imperial power. For example, the relationship between the SU and India in the 70s and 80s, which India balanced out with some neocolonialism practiced by the UK and France.
We may not have much people/cultural exchange with Russia but Russian public opinion of India as of 2017 is positive while French public opinion is divided and is net negative according to this BBC poll.
That seems rather strange to me. Doesn't fit my own perceptions and experience. The page where you got this also doesn't mention anything about France or French media.
Anti-Indian sentiment - Wikipedia
You didn't even watch the video, did you? its much more deeper than that. And i love how you you brush it under the carpet like its nothing. The french guy who liked your comment wants everyone to recognize russian neo-colonialism but wants french neo-colonialism to be ignored. hypocrisy much?
do you even know what you are trying to say?
Scholar narrates how Indians controlled Uganda's economy
Sunday May 29 2022
Scholar narrates how Indians controlled Uganda's economy
The well-researched, provocative book comes as Uganda marks 50 years since the expulsion of Indians.www.theeastafrican.co.ke
Trade influences everything. US China have deep trade links which is why they can't directly fight each other, its 2 way dependency. Similarly, India is saddled with a zombie Russian State due to our arms dependency on them despite having no deep trade links. Russia doesn't buy anything of value from india but we are dependent on them - a hollow relationship. Russian, France & Israel are all hollow relationships. No people-to-people connect, no deep trade links, no cultural/political affinity. A mercantile partnership. Israel particularly depends on Indian,Chinese & US support or it would fold like apartheid South Africa.
I like how people give paltry deals like vikas engine as a justification. India has paid france more than 30 billion $ in just last 20-30 years in weapon sales. That too substandard weapons that always come short when faced with american supplied weapons. Pakistanis were smart in this that they always piggybacked on american interests and got top of the line weaponry for paltry amount of money. Rafale simps will die the day pakistan gets newer AMRAAMS for their F-16 that will trash IAF's Rafales. Or maybe chinese stealth planes. J-20 production is hitting 120 aircraft per year as we speak. IAF ki phat ke gili ho chuki hai.
your entire first part is a long rant on independent foreign policy. At the end of the day what will you do with it? Achar bana ke kha jaega kya? This sentimental retardism is what i am against. Learn from china, after the sino-soviet split, what did they do? Cold blooded pragmatism. aligning with US right now is the best thing we can do in our struggle against china.
Courting china- US is not courting china apart from taiwan....duh? wtf are you on about?
historical baggage-means nothing when it comes to cold blooded foreign policy
Rafale is a 2nd or 3rd best plane depending on who you ask. I dont understand why you want to buy substandard european aircrafts that have always come short.
Exclusives- US is offering that exclusive deal right now. If we buy into their program of F-35, we get the best plane at better prices. Pakistanis are then free to but rafales, eurofighters,J-20s,etc if they can afford it, will anyways be inferior. When you are offered a good deal, you don't reject it because of past problems, you take it and move on.
an attempt at self-flattery. india and france may want strategic autonomy but both countries are in very different circumstances.
France is a stagnating economy which even by the best estimates will be $7trillion in 2075. Its courting china so that it can cement its place in european playground.
India is poor but ascending economy which by the best estimates will be $52 trillion by 2075. India is averse to china and is looking for partnerships. US is the most obvious partner here.
Conclusion - India- France share a transactional relation. Thats it. No ideological coherence given macron keeps courting Xi.
People here will ignore both France's and Russia's neocolonialism so that they can justify india's strategic autonomy. What that means, god knows!! Strategic autonomy is a tool to achieve geopolitical aims, its not a aim in itself. Strategic autonomy dampens india's prospects right now. We should shun it. Embracing US (even if temporarily like china) should be a priority as they would give the best bang for the buck(militarily) and will direct unprecedented capital flows into india(industrialisation).
I can't wrap my head around the fact that people will justify buying paltry 36 rafales(a substandard fighter jet) for 8-9 billion euros. Rafales are beaten by F-35 hands down. What a *censored*ing mess. India will pay through its teeth in 10-15 years to upgrade these planes again(provided IAF hasn't flown them into the ground by then).
Did Pakistan's F-16 face any hinderence in 2019. No. They openly humiliated the much vaunted IAF. Pakistan has a annual military budget of $8 billion. But they had the best products americans had to offer. India has a military budget of $81 billion. Kya ukhad liya? Got its shitty mig-21 shot down. We risk the same with rafales. What if tommorow they get their hands on superior american of chinese BVRAAMs? If we are gonna spend so much money importing weapons, why are we not buying the best? This entanglement that people keep talking about, did it hinder pakistan in any case against india? It was indians who were crying that they used american weapons against us like a spoilt child. Ye sab backchodi hai to defend GOIs retarded decisions. Americans would be very happy if indians shot down chinese or pakistani planes using american jets. That would be a great advertisement for their planes. We would also get a sneak-peak into what the best equipment in the world is like. Will help us in our own weapon development.
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What I am trying to say here is that India - US relations are at their highest and will keep going up because of ever increasing trade. People to people contact brings great influence as indian-americans are deeply embeded into their system. We should use it to our advantage to guide their policy formation and buy their weapons to placate them of the growing trade surplus we have. Americans & chinese will be the top dogs when it comes to military advancements. Europeans will always lag behind both. Buying american weapons blocks sale of same equipment to pakistan. 2 birds 1 stone. They can buy russian/chinese/european.
What we are instead doing is-
Ever increasing trade surplus brings us into the aim of US hawkish politicians who target us with non-tariff barriers. We increasingly buy more and more weapons from europeans(at the expense of russians). This upsets the policy makers in washington as they feel their efforts of supporting india are unreceprocated. The weapons we get from europeans are sub-standard, always at the risk of being superseded by americans or chinese - both of which pakistan has access to, forcing us to import even more. No amount of weapon import from europeans will bring them on our side as the relationship with them is purely transactional due to non-existing trade(excluding arms). No people to people contact makes the relationship even more transactional. We don't have similar trade surplus with EU so we are just making them rich with very little benefits.
We are making a mistake and people are justifying that mistake with the non-sensical term - "strategic autonomy" which has become a dogma into itself. It was supposed to be a tool to achieve our aims, not an aim in itself. We have fueled european arms industry like we did to russia's in the past. Europeans have a very negative outlook towards our country due to non-existing people to people contacts. We should be spending our money towards americans as they will make our path much smoother due their own heft above all these european middling powers. They view india positively as well so partnership will always be good despite small disagreements.
Plus, just dump russia at this point. Its a corpse tied to us.
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Honestly, public opinion is of little value. China's public opinion has been rock bottom everywhere in 20th century. Its the ability to trade that matters. That and diplomatic value the relationship of countries bring. Most Indians are never going to go to France and most French are never going to visit India. Indians and Russians have good public opinion of each other but that relationship is slowly losing value because of Russia move towards China and India's slow rise.
No one said don't do trade with USA. Did anyone say it? Did China stop doing trade with USA?
But has China EVER aligned with USA? In 80s? or in 90s? or in 2000s? or now?
You are conflating Trade and Geopolitical Alignment.
India and US are not enemies but their interest do not align.
US is interested in India as a counterbalance or at least an irritant to China. India wants to play US against China when needed -- like it did with Soviet Russia in 71. These are conflicting goals diplomatically and geopolitically.
The reality is this : You CAN do trade with USA without having a military and geopolitical alignment with it. And thats perhaps the best we can get out of USA. Otherwise, you can see what aligning to USA did to Pakistan. It dragged Pakistan in un-needed wars like one in Afghanistan.
Here is another reality : US never wanted India to develop nuclear weapons or even delivery mechanism. If India were to do another test, US will oppose. If you align with USA absolutely, you will have to surrender that. And you can see how Taiwan and Ukraine are faring by surrendering their nuclear option.
There is NO sentimentalism here. Its pure rational thinking.
Oh and BTW, 10 trillion dollar are not 50 years away. Maximum by 2040. Less than 20 years away. At that point you will become an irritant and will be percieved as a threat by USA.
If you want take example of China?
China is biggest trade partner of USA but does it align with USA? NEVER! Has it ever aligned to any major world power strategically? Never! Why do you think Sino-Soviet split happen?
China has been an ally of Russia, but have you seen it aligned with Russia or USSR? No! Heck right now, China is not supplying weapons to Russia even though Russia is short of weapons. China has its own interest in mind -- preserving its trade everywhere and making Russia dependent on itself.
And you want India to align itself with USA.
Here is the real meaning of aligning with USA is :
Getting dragged into conflicts in which you have no point of joining. Eg. US - Iran conflict. Or Russia - Ukraine conflict. Or another US-Afghan war in future. You want to see Indian forces fighting in Afghanistan? Ultimately US will leave but we will have to live with consequences of that. Like Pakistan is now facing those consequences.
Does India want to make enemy out of Iran? Or Russia? Or Taliban?
All of that's irrelevant. The only things that matters are geopolitics and leverage, everything else is negotiable.
It's all about how important some things are on the gorund that can change status quo and how much leverage one holds over the other.
For example, if the US desperately needs iPhones for survival and China is the only source, then the Chinese have leverage. But if the US develops other sources for the same, then China has lost its leverage. Trade partners can change overnight. At best, a country may suffer through 1 or 2 years of inflation for most things the Chinese supply before other suppliers can build capacities and replace them. We have already seen that with Russia and Europe. So all major powers try and reduce the leverage others have over them and increase their own leverage over others.
Geopolitics is even more important, especially concerning territory, 'cause real estate is at a premium, we have only one planet. Take Taiwan for example. China today has zero access to the world's oceans. But the minute they take Taiwan, China gains access to the entire Pacific and the Arctic. This is a major existential threat to the US. So why would the US care about little bits of trade with China, barely a fraction of their economy, in comparison to 2 oceans that they currently dominate? Rather than worry about poor American kids paying $10 extra for Indian sneakers, the USG and Pentagon are more concerned about retaining control over the Pacific.
India's trade with Russia, France and Israel reduces American leverage over India. That's why they are important. The value of the trade is insignificant in comparison. And we are in mutually beneficial relationships. Naturally, India's trade with China is also of less significance since their leverage over us is diminishing every year, so geopolitics will take away a much bigger share of our energy in time.
PAF's F-16s are done. It's soon entering its replacement cycle, and they are not getting the F-35. AMRAAM is also done, it's entered the replacement cycle as well, the PAF's not gonna get that either. Their J-10Cs are now superior to the F-16. Neither are gonna "trash" the Rafale.
China is not yet a military threat to India. Also, the Chinese have to match the Americans, India doesn't have to match the Chinese.
Read posts 489 and 492.
People's Liberation Army Air Force : News & Discussions
https://nitter.net/RupprechtDeino/status/1680945248921350149 PLAAF J20 production rates are through the roof. 120 J-20 production per year. at least 500 j-20s by 2025 if this is true, it wouldn't be a shock to see over 1000 J-20 of the old and new variant by 2030. Before India even starts...
4.5th gen jets will still play a part due to the development of stealth drones and combat cloud, even against the J-20 and a future J-XX. Also, the Rafale is more suitable for use in the mountains than any 5th gen in existence today. They all lack the operational efficiency of the Rafale. No point operating the J-20 if all one can do is chase an egressing Rafale's tailpipe.
We don't need to embrace anybody. We don't need to do anything outside of reforms to attract "unprecedented" capital inflows as well.
China didn't embrace the US either, it was the other way round. And the same thing's happening today between the US and India. It's the US wanting to embrace India.
The problem is this American embrace has come 15 years too late. A lot of the things we needed help with, we have developed on our own or with the assistance of others. And what we need help with, the Americans are not willing to provide. For example, even after all that big talk, the Americans have offered only 80% ToT of an older engine, whereas the French are providing 100% ToT, know-how and know-why of a more advanced engine which they themselves plan on using on the FCAS demonstrator.
And when it comes to the economy, unlike in the 70s, where the USG had some say in what the insutry does, globalisation has ensured only competitive behaviour can attract investments. For that, we need reforms and infrastructure. Without either, it doesn't matter how close we get to the US, we can even fall at their feet, but their businesses will simply invest elsewhere. So, even if we become enemies with the US, businesses will still come to India as long as we actually do our jobs.
You are way too hung up on the F-35. It's not ready yet. It's great that you have read and understood all the marketing brochures, but reality is something else entirely. Operational F-35s don't have anything 5th gen that can be considered functional, nearly 900 jets are still awaiting the TR-3 computer upgrade. The F-35 needs the 25 times more computing power to actually make use of its capabilities, beginning in 2024. Furthermore, it also needs engine upgrades. At this time, it's somewhat fine in the cold weather of Europe, but there's not a single place in India it can be reliably used from, including the seas. That's also why the USN only operates 2 dozen jets today. Even in Europe, it's underpowered. Even after it gets a 10% thrust upgrade, it will only be somewhat usable in Punjab. For operating in India, it will need a 20-30% thrust upgrade to compensate for the massive degradation in power it will experience in the mountains just to be somewhat usable, that's at least 240KN.
And then there are two other problems. At this time, the F-35's avionics are outdated. Both its radar and optical sensors are behind current industry standards, even the Indian industry. LM has revealed a roadmap to upgrade both. It's yet to get the new APG-85. As for optical sensors, the stuff on Gripen E is more advanced and LCA Mk2 is getting even more advanced stuff than that, so the F-35 definitely needs upgrades here. The same with their MMI, it's now behind compared to industry standards.
The second problem is a bigger one. They recently figured out the engine sucks.
F-35 Engine Running Too Hot Due To 'Under-Speccing,' Upgrade Now Vital (Updated)
The F-35's engine is having to work harder to cool and power the aircraft's systems, leading to a logistical mess.
www.thedrive.com
With TR-2 and TR-3, it appears the engine is fine, minus the fact that the engine is running hotter than expected, thereby reducing life and increasing maintenance and costs. But with B4 upgrades, the jet will have both insufficient cooling and electrical power.
So, as of today, the F-35 is just an expensive piece of jewellery for men. The IAF can only consider it seriously after 2030, the Block 5 to 10 variants.
The J-20 faces a massive Himalayan burden too. It needs a more advanced engine to become somewhat usable in Tibet. And it's definitely going to suffer from significant teething troubles like the Americans did.
In any case, during Gaganshakti, ACM Dhanoa said that the current lot of stealth jets are not stealthy enough. Basically vertical fins and large control surfaces have to be eliminated for stealth. So the plan is to use proven 4.5th gen with Himalayan capabilities in concert with stealth drones coming out of IUSAV and FUFA programs through the 2030s and early 2040s.
Rafale with Meteor will stomp every Pakistani fighter and walk them dry. 'Nuff said.
Hello, as I did not know you (I had never read you here although you have been registered for much longer than me),
and as I considered the videos you posted not serious at all (and therefore I posted one of the same level myself by irony),
I didn't really answer you. I apologize for this.
But since you insist and argue, then ok, i will comment seriously (with sometimes a bit of irony, ‘cause i am who i am)
vid#1 Caspian Report
1/ About the CFA franc, rejoice! it is planned to be replaced in 2027 by an African currency: the ECO.
It was supposed to be done as soon as 2020, but you know: c’est l’Afrique, chef.
(…) Among the reasons cited to explain the delay in the implementation of the single currency, there are economic reasons such 1/ as the difficulty of certain countries in respecting the convergence criteria, 2/ but also the hesitation of Nigeria, the region's leading economic power and of the continent, which still needs to be convinced by its neighbors to give real momentum to the project. (…)
2/ in the vid’ i do appreciate: (…) 10:38: But the world is changing. Since the end of the cold war [i.e. 30 years ago, the CaspianReport document is a bit "dated". This is not fresh news], the presence of France in Africa has diminished. The growing economic competition from China, the United States and many other countries [Russia, Turkey, India…] has plunged the French market share on the continent to historically low levels. And with the coming to power of a new generation of French-speaking African leaders, African youth are increasingly looking for alternative patrons. (…)
GREAT! I wish African youth much pleasure with their new Chinese, Turkish, Indian or Russian “patrons”…
For example, since France withdrew from Mali at the request of the Malian coup authorities, and Russia "replaced" it, I wouldn’t say that the security nor the economical situation has improved in the West African region. Wassim Nasr either
Anyway, in the information war, I hold Caspian Report for a false nose of Turkish diplomacy and its neo-Ottoman nostalgia, or/and pan-Turkish ideology.
vid#2 Gravel Institute.
I didn't know about this organization. It is the same one who conceived the documentary titled "How America Funded Ukraine's Neo-Nazis". It would have been a big hit here with some people ( 
), but ultimately it didn't air. And their website went down. RIP. No regrets, that was BS.
), but ultimately it didn't air. And their website went down. RIP. No regrets, that was BS.
The doc you linked is zero. Ultimately, that of Caspian Report is more serious, whatever dated.
vid#3 skynewsau // gorgia Meloni
A bit of irony : can Murdoch be considered a defender of the "free and independent" press, or as a Frenchman, err sorry: i mean a colonialist of the mediasphere?
Anyway, I find the oratorical precautions and deny of the puppet, sorry: the journalist tasty: « no no giorgia Meloni is NOT from the far right, especially not! » (huhu)
That's it, yes: « (…) In 1992, Meloni joined the Youth Front, the youth wing of the Italian Social Movement (MSI), a neo-fascist political party founded in 1946 by former followers of Italian fascism. She later became the national leader of Student Action, the student movement of the National Alliance (AN), a post-fascist party that became the MSI's legal successor in 1995 and moved towards national conservatism. (…) A right-wing populist and nationalist, her political positions have been described as far-right, which she rejects (…) [wiki]
I understand, within a democratic European Union, this is a somewhat heavy legacy to assume. Better is to make-up.
I recall that during the 1930s the Italian fascists invaded and occupied Libya and Somalia. You can see what state these countries are in today.
I did not hear Madame Meloni contrition nor repent. Probably because it's so much more populist, sorry: more easy to criticize France.
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No, really, Gasoline, haven't you found more serious sources?
But as I said, CaspianReport is the least bad of the three: certainly 30 years late (the end of the Cold War), it nevertheless recognizes that the world is changing in Africa and that French-speaking countries are emancipating. I agree! Whether they manage with the Russians, the Turks or the Kalmyks. They can do what they want, France has paid enough.
I would add that in French public opinion, Africa - in economic terms - has long been considered a dead weight. And a scourge in terms of immigration.
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ps: against France you cast a wide net: a pro-Turkish lobbyist, the American « progressive left » channel that no longer exists, and an Italian neo-fascist. Congratulations on your smearing efforts. Having said that, of course, I am not criticizing you for having your personal opinions, let that be clear.
ps2: if you could go and discuss fail-35 or India-US relations in the dedicated threads I would appreciate it.
Thanks in advance.
Key difference is "Indians" and "India". Those Indians do not take marching orders from India.
Scholar narrates how Indians controlled Uganda's economy
Sunday May 29 2022
Scholar narrates how Indians controlled Uganda's economy
The well-researched, provocative book comes as Uganda marks 50 years since the expulsion of Indians.