India - France relations.

Now that Bastille day is is over and the celebrations of Rafales and Scorpenes have abated. Here are some headlines and articles from French State Media that paint a more sobering picture of the relationship between our two countries. France is our partner in defence, technology and strategic co-operation to an extent but our political interests do not align completely and it would be silly to aim for such a partnership anyway.

France is still an EU member state and for this reason will remain polarised on some matters with India including China.


 
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I am pretty sure anyone who has read any history of india - france relations would know that this is just a mercantile partnership. This partnership is to be thrown under the bus at a convinient time. Political chamchas may praise or dance on twitter, but thats just politics. No one takes them seriously. I just read somewhere that French used to spy on indian PMO and pass off intel to the americans as americans didn't have direct/good enough relations with India. That just shows you the reality of Indo-French relationship. India just buys military hardware and France sells it. Thats pretty much the extent of this give and take relationship. On top of that Macron goes out of his way to court China, which is India's geopolitical enemy, but nobody in india cares. That should show you that Indian establishment doesn't have any ideological coherence with France cause if Biden courted Xi, alarm bells would be ringing in south block.

Also, France was quite happy selling weapons to both India & Pakistan(just like sweden, italy, etc) despite pakistan's (NATO backed) multiple invasions of India. It was The Karachi Affair where things between France & Pakistan went sour as pakistanis blew up 11 french technicians to pieces due to "bribing gone wrong". There wasn't any ideological alignment with india that stopped france-pakistan cooperation. Plus they knew they would make more money if they sold weapons exclusively to India as pakistan was open to superior american weapons or chinese weapons if they had no other option.

If you want to take the moral stand of democracy, then why ignore France's Neo-colonialism in Africa? I was appalled when I saw Caspian-Report's video on this topic. How can a post-colonial state like india have friendly relations with the disgusting French State(irrespective of whichever party is in power)? The least Indians could do for africans is to NOT empower/enrich their oppressors.

Lastly, the whole point of buying french weapons was india's aversion to american weapons. India bought Rafale because india couldn't buy F-15/35. Rafale was the most competent plane available to india. It wasn't the best plane out there. But as India-America relations are on an upswing, why not just buy F-35? F-35C would be a better fit for Vikrant than Rafale. F-35 is anyday a superior plane. As it turns out F-35 would have been cheaper as well because of larger production order. Why all this drama of avoiding american jets if we are anyways gonna partner with them against China. This would also reduce trade deficit with US , in turn reducing american anxiety. Indo-French trade is paltry in comparison. We are again creating a hollow relationship with France like we did with Russia, just one-dimensional weapons trade. This would again create dependencies on france(like russia right now) with which we don't have any coherence alignment and would bite us in the *censored* one day(like it is doing today).
 
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I am pretty sure anyone who has read any history of india - france relations would know that this is just a mercantile partnership. This partnership is to be thrown under the bus at a convinient time. Political chamchas may praise or dance on twitter, but thats just politics. No one takes them seriously. I just read somewhere that French used to spy on indian PMO and pass off intel to the americans as americans didn't have direct/good enough relations with India. That just shows you the reality of Indo-French relationship. India just buys military hardware and France sells it. Thats pretty much the extent of this give and take relationship. On top of that Macron goes out of his way to court China, which is India's geopolitical enemy, but nobody in india cares. That should show you that Indian establishment doesn't have any ideological coherence with France cause if Biden courted Xi, alarm bells would be ringing in south block.

Also, France was quite happy selling weapons to both India & Pakistan(just like sweden, italy, etc) despite pakistan's (NATO backed) multiple invasions of India. It was The Karachi Affair where things between France & Pakistan went sour as pakistanis blew up 11 french technicians to pieces due to "bribing gone wrong". There wasn't any ideological alignment with india that stopped france-pakistan cooperation. Plus they knew they would make more money if they sold weapons exclusively to India as pakistan was open to superior american weapons or chinese weapons if they had no other option.

If you want to take the moral stand of democracy, then why ignore France's Neo-colonialism in Africa? I was appalled when I saw Caspian-Report's video on this topic. How can a post-colonial state like india have friendly relations with the disgusting French State(irrespective of whichever party is in power)? The least Indians could do for africans is to NOT empower/enrich their oppressors.

Lastly, the whole point of buying french weapons was india's aversion to american weapons. India bought Rafale because india couldn't buy F-15/35. Rafale was the most competent plane available to india. It wasn't the best plane out there. But as India-America relations are on an upswing, why not just buy F-35? F-35C would be a better fit for Vikrant than Rafale. F-35 is anyday a superior plane. As it turns out F-35 would have been cheaper as well because of larger production order. Why all this drama of avoiding american jets if we are anyways gonna partner with them against China. This would also reduce trade deficit with US , in turn reducing american anxiety. Indo-French trade is paltry in comparison. We are again creating a hollow relationship with France like we did with Russia, just one-dimensional weapons trade. This would again create dependencies on france(like russia right now) with which we don't have any coherence alignment and would bite us in the *censored* one day(like it is doing today).
Pure BS! Heard about Vikash rocket and its impact on our space sector? Go figure...

And Rafale is anyday better than any US plane. F-35 has really one advantage over it and that is passive stealth. But Rafale has means to be almost equally effective using low flying and SPECTRA/active cancellation. Plus with Meteor it can flush out an area and hunt down High Value Targets from far away. For us, Rafale is the best plane.

For F-15, we already have a superior F-15 with us and its name is MKI. We don't need the American Eagle. Thanks but no thanks.
 
(libé, june20 2009)

The clandestine revenge of the DGSE​

France is said to have killed one of its blackmailers and wounded three others in retaliation.

France allegedly killed one of its blackmailers and wounded three others in retaliation.​
In the spring of 2002, when relations with the Pakistani military were deteriorating over unpaid commissions, the French government applied the law of retaliation through the Service Action of the DGSE (Direction générale de la sécurité extérieure), a military unit specialising in clandestine operations, as first reported by the Mediapart information website.​
"Retortion". According to information in the investigation file, a Service Action team was sent to Pakistan at the time of the Karachi attack to "apply retaliatory measures", on the grounds that "France cannot be blackmailed". The judges in charge of the investigation, Marc Trévidic and Yves Jannier, confirmed the existence of this hypothesis when they met the families of the victims in Cherbourg on Thursday. According to information obtained by Libération, this punitive expedition consisted of breaking the legs of three Pakistani admirals and killing a lower-ranking soldier.​
The episode, unknown until recently, led to discussions between the victims' families and magistrates in Cherbourg on Thursday. A witness to this exchange said that the judges still seemed to be wondering about the date of the operation.​
Bomb. It could have taken place between March and April, after the French embassy in Islamabad had received a warning in the form of a defused bomb to stop the blackmail - but to no avail. In addition to the fact that vengeance is no substitute for justice, the case shows the magistrates that there were decision-makers within the French security apparatus who knew the blackmailers./deepl
 
I am pretty sure anyone who has read any history of india - france relations would know that this is just a mercantile partnership. This partnership is to be thrown under the bus at a convinient time. Political chamchas may praise or dance on twitter, but thats just politics. No one takes them seriously. I just read somewhere that French used to spy on indian PMO and pass off intel to the americans as americans didn't have direct/good enough relations with India. That just shows you the reality of Indo-French relationship. India just buys military hardware and France sells it. Thats pretty much the extent of this give and take relationship. On top of that Macron goes out of his way to court China, which is India's geopolitical enemy, but nobody in india cares. That should show you that Indian establishment doesn't have any ideological coherence with France cause if Biden courted Xi, alarm bells would be ringing in south block.

Also, France was quite happy selling weapons to both India & Pakistan(just like sweden, italy, etc) despite pakistan's (NATO backed) multiple invasions of India. It was The Karachi Affair where things between France & Pakistan went sour as pakistanis blew up 11 french technicians to pieces due to "bribing gone wrong". There wasn't any ideological alignment with india that stopped france-pakistan cooperation. Plus they knew they would make more money if they sold weapons exclusively to India as pakistan was open to superior american weapons or chinese weapons if they had no other option.

If you want to take the moral stand of democracy, then why ignore France's Neo-colonialism in Africa? I was appalled when I saw Caspian-Report's video on this topic. How can a post-colonial state like india have friendly relations with the disgusting French State(irrespective of whichever party is in power)? The least Indians could do for africans is to NOT empower/enrich their oppressors.

Lastly, the whole point of buying french weapons was india's aversion to american weapons. India bought Rafale because india couldn't buy F-15/35. Rafale was the most competent plane available to india. It wasn't the best plane out there. But as India-America relations are on an upswing, why not just buy F-35? F-35C would be a better fit for Vikrant than Rafale. F-35 is anyday a superior plane. As it turns out F-35 would have been cheaper as well because of larger production order. Why all this drama of avoiding american jets if we are anyways gonna partner with them against China. This would also reduce trade deficit with US , in turn reducing american anxiety. Indo-French trade is paltry in comparison. We are again creating a hollow relationship with France like we did with Russia, just one-dimensional weapons trade. This would again create dependencies on france(like russia right now) with which we don't have any coherence alignment and would bite us in the *censored* one day(like it is doing today).
:ROFLMAO:
Any sources?
What you're smoking looks good. pls share the phone number of your dealer.
 
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Pure BS! Heard about Vikash rocket and its impact on our space sector? Go figure...

And Rafale is anyday better than any US plane. F-35 has really one advantage over it and that is passive stealth. But Rafale has means to be almost equally effective using low flying and SPECTRA/active cancellation. Plus with Meteor it can flush out an area and hunt down High Value Targets from far away. For us, Rafale is the best plane.

For F-15, we already have a superior F-15 with us and its name is MKI. We don't need the American Eagle. Thanks but no thanks.
Don't dickride so hard that the obvious reality is obscured. No way in hell is your shitty Rafale even comparable to an actual 5th gen F-35. Finland's acquisition of F-35 silenced all the Rafale fanboys anyway.


Any sources?
What you're smoking looks good. pls share the phone number of your dealer.

Raman, whose revelations about the episode feature in his new book The Kaoboys of R&AW, said "the whole world was shocked by the ease with which two French intelligence officers, assisted by their Polish counterparts, had penetrated the PMO and removed tonnes and tonnes of documents. It was alleged that they were so sure that nothing would happen to them that they used to go to the PMO on Sundays and other holidays, go through all the files and papers, take out what was of interest to them and took out photocopies using the photocopying machine of the PMO and the photocopying papers of the PMO. It was a scandal of unbelievable proportions."
In an article which is to appear shortly on the website of strategic think-tank South Asia Analysis Group, he said the scandal assumed such proportions that Rajiv Gandhi had to make a statement in Parliament and his and his mother's Principal Secretary, P C Alexander, had to resign.
The investigations revealed that the French and other collaborating intelligence agencies "operated through Yogesh T Maneklal, then Managing Director of Maneklal Industries Limited of Mumbai, who had extensive contacts at the lower levels of the PMO, the President's Office and other ministries and persuaded many government servants to work for the French intelligence".

Besides Maneklal, who was given a 14-year prison term, the former RAW officer named 12 government officers who were sentenced to imprisonment for 10 years by the court of Additional Sessions Judge R K Gauba.

Maintaining that all these details were available in parliamentary and court records, Raman said "One is surprised and disturbed that within 25 years of this disgraceful betrayal, most of our national security managers and so-called strategic analysts have forgotten about it. When I draw attention to this, some in the media accuse me of disseminating claims without corroboration, others ridicule me by comparing me with (former external affairs minister) Jaswant Singh, and some others attribute motives to me. This is why we face national security disasters again and again and again. A nation, which has no memory for the past, is bound to repeat its mistakes in the future," Raman, who retired in 1994 as additional secretary in the Cabinet Secretariat, said in the article.

Observing that there was unusual "excitement or skepticism" on the issue in some TV channels and a section of the media, Raman said: "We are a nation with no memory. That is why national security lapses keep overtaking us at regular intervals and we keep drifting from one disaster to another."



I actually advocate for downgrading of relations with France. Have some decency, how can a post-colonial Indian State have good relations with a neo-colonial France? If you have US locked in a strategic partnership, why even bother with such a middle power(FR)? France was always the go-to because India-US relations were bad, now that India-US relations are good, whats the utility of France?

I bet 5 years from India will anyway procure F-35, since it would be the only navy in QUAD not having F-35. All other common equipment will work in tandem like P-8s, Sea Guardians, MH-60 but Rafales will stick out like a sore thumb. The whole point of QUAD was inter-operability and joint ops with their navies.
 
Last edited:
(libé, june20 2009)

The clandestine revenge of the DGSE​

France is said to have killed one of its blackmailers and wounded three others in retaliation.

France allegedly killed one of its blackmailers and wounded three others in retaliation.​
In the spring of 2002, when relations with the Pakistani military were deteriorating over unpaid commissions, the French government applied the law of retaliation through the Service Action of the DGSE (Direction générale de la sécurité extérieure), a military unit specialising in clandestine operations, as first reported by the Mediapart information website.​
"Retortion". According to information in the investigation file, a Service Action team was sent to Pakistan at the time of the Karachi attack to "apply retaliatory measures", on the grounds that "France cannot be blackmailed". The judges in charge of the investigation, Marc Trévidic and Yves Jannier, confirmed the existence of this hypothesis when they met the families of the victims in Cherbourg on Thursday. According to information obtained by Libération, this punitive expedition consisted of breaking the legs of three Pakistani admirals and killing a lower-ranking soldier.​
The episode, unknown until recently, led to discussions between the victims' families and magistrates in Cherbourg on Thursday. A witness to this exchange said that the judges still seemed to be wondering about the date of the operation.​
Bomb. It could have taken place between March and April, after the French embassy in Islamabad had received a warning in the form of a defused bomb to stop the blackmail - but to no avail. In addition to the fact that vengeance is no substitute for justice, the case shows the magistrates that there were decision-makers within the French security apparatus who knew the blackmailers./deepl
I don't think you understand, this makes you look worse.

What's the 'Karachi affair'?​

Investigations into the so-called "Karachi affair" began after 11 French engineers were killed in a Karachi bombing in 2002.
Pakistani authorities blamed Islamist militants, but there were suspicions that the car bombing, which wrecked a bus, was an act of revenge after then-French President Jacques Chirac ordered the payments of secret arms deal commissions to stop.
Mr Balladur is alleged to have earlier approved payment of the commissions to intermediaries in the sale of three submarines to Pakistan, and that from them so-called "retro-commissions" came back to France to fund his 1995 presidential bid.
The kickbacks are estimated to have cost 13m francs, or almost €2m.
Mr Sarkozy has faced legal scrutiny over the Karachi affair. He has denied any connection to the deal.

A lawyer representing the victims of the deadly Karachi bombing praised the French court's decision on Monday.
Olivier Morice said that "if the families had not lodged a complaint, there would not have been this judgment", adding that families were now waiting for the trial of Mr Balladur and Mr Léotard.
Mr Balladur was the French prime minister from 1993 to 1995. Both he and Mr Léotard were charged in May 2017 with "complicity in misuse of corporate assets and concealment" over the Pakistan deal.




The gravy train of bribery stopped which led to pakistan blowing up 11 french technicians. Otherwise, France had no problems selling pakistan military equipment. So, India-France partnership just a mercantile relationship. Now the use of this relationship is nose-diving as India-US relations are soaring new heights. India should be pragmatic and dump this careful balancing act.

US-India trade: 118 billion

1689610648735.png1689610689618.png


Can you find France in that list? No? So France is not even the 25th largest trade partner for India? Italy,UK,Germany have more trade with india.
So what is India-France trade?

1689610822962.png
source:

Paltry 12 billion euros - as i said hollow relationship like russia, to be thrown under the bus now as India-US relationship have improved. US is the actual global power here that can offer "the deal of the century" as it did to China once (after sino-soviet split). Anyone who says otherwise is a sentimental fool who doesn't wishes india to rise. We should take that deal and industrialise like china did. Rest is noise. If that requires buying american jets then so be it. Cold blooded pragmatism like china is what we need right now.

France (like Russia) is just a tool to be used and thrown.

If we want to come even close to this⬇️ reality, we need to whole-heartedly embrace US like China did once. Sentimentality has no place here.
1689611475147.png
 
Don't dickride so hard that the obvious reality is obscured. No way in hell is your shitty Rafale even comparable to an actual 5th gen F-35. Finland's acquisition of F-35 silenced all the Rafale fanboys anyway.




Raman, whose revelations about the episode feature in his new book The Kaoboys of R&AW, said "the whole world was shocked by the ease with which two French intelligence officers, assisted by their Polish counterparts, had penetrated the PMO and removed tonnes and tonnes of documents. It was alleged that they were so sure that nothing would happen to them that they used to go to the PMO on Sundays and other holidays, go through all the files and papers, take out what was of interest to them and took out photocopies using the photocopying machine of the PMO and the photocopying papers of the PMO. It was a scandal of unbelievable proportions."
In an article which is to appear shortly on the website of strategic think-tank South Asia Analysis Group, he said the scandal assumed such proportions that Rajiv Gandhi had to make a statement in Parliament and his and his mother's Principal Secretary, P C Alexander, had to resign.
The investigations revealed that the French and other collaborating intelligence agencies "operated through Yogesh T Maneklal, then Managing Director of Maneklal Industries Limited of Mumbai, who had extensive contacts at the lower levels of the PMO, the President's Office and other ministries and persuaded many government servants to work for the French intelligence".

Besides Maneklal, who was given a 14-year prison term, the former RAW officer named 12 government officers who were sentenced to imprisonment for 10 years by the court of Additional Sessions Judge R K Gauba.

Maintaining that all these details were available in parliamentary and court records, Raman said "One is surprised and disturbed that within 25 years of this disgraceful betrayal, most of our national security managers and so-called strategic analysts have forgotten about it. When I draw attention to this, some in the media accuse me of disseminating claims without corroboration, others ridicule me by comparing me with (former external affairs minister) Jaswant Singh, and some others attribute motives to me. This is why we face national security disasters again and again and again. A nation, which has no memory for the past, is bound to repeat its mistakes in the future," Raman, who retired in 1994 as additional secretary in the Cabinet Secretariat, said in the article.

Observing that there was unusual "excitement or skepticism" on the issue in some TV channels and a section of the media, Raman said: "We are a nation with no memory. That is why national security lapses keep overtaking us at regular intervals and we keep drifting from one disaster to another."



I actually advocate for downgrading of relations with France. Have some decency, how can a post-colonial Indian State have good relations with a neo-colonial France? If you have US locked in a strategic partnership, why even bother with such a middle power(FR)? France was always the go-to because India-US relations were bad, now that India-US relations are good, whats the utility of France?

I bet 5 years from India will anyway procure F-35, since it would be the only navy in QUAD not having F-35. All other common equipment will work in tandem like P-8s, Sea Guardians, MH-60 but Rafales will stick out like a sore thumb. The whole point of QUAD was inter-operability and joint ops with their navies.
Rafale is better for our needs. No thanks to fatty aka F-35./
 
Pure BS! Heard about Vikash rocket and its impact on our space sector? Go figure...

And Rafale is anyday better than any US plane. F-35 has really one advantage over it and that is passive stealth. But Rafale has means to be almost equally effective using low flying and SPECTRA/active cancellation. Plus with Meteor it can flush out an area and hunt down High Value Targets from far away. For us, Rafale is the best plane.

For F-15, we already have a superior F-15 with us and its name is MKI. We don't need the American Eagle. Thanks but no thanks.
Exactly! Transfer of Vikas engine wouldn't have been possible without French govt. approval. And this was cutting edge technology at the time. France will sell us their current tech like the Rafale whereas US govt. wants to pawn off ageing platforms like F18s and F16/21s which are on the verge of being retired from their own arsenal. Hypothetically if the Americans were to agree to sell F35s today, then we could say maybe our co-operation with them is on the same level as with France.