India - Pakistan Standoff 2019
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India requests Pak to let PM Modi's flight pass through its airspace
First Sushma now boss himself. Could have gone using Iranian airspace... What's he trying to signal... First saying Katti.. No talks.. then asking Pakistan repeatedly to open Pakistani airspace for him and his cabinet..
First Sushma now boss himself. Could have gone using Iranian airspace... What's he trying to signal... First saying Katti.. No talks.. then asking Pakistan repeatedly to open Pakistani airspace for him and his cabinet..
Here's the deal. India opened up its airspace to Pakistan and wants it to reciprocate. Pakistan is hesitant. This has little to do with Pakistan hurting India's wallet by having all those airlines local and international fly around Pakistan.That It does but this loss is sustainable. The more immediate reason is it wants to hurt the air trade we're conducting with Afghanistan. Imports from Afghanistan is already down by some 30%.
Pakistan Airspace Closure Declines Exports To India: Official | TOLOnews
Did Indian Government officially announce the opening of its airspace ? It was strange that the air force announced it..
https://www.livefistdefence.com/201...adio-call-before-he-fired-f-16-kill-shot.html
Visual. And locked. That was the final radio call from IAF pilot Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman’s MiG-21 Bison before he pushed a button on his stick, letting loose the only weapon fired by the eight Indian jets in the air at the time. The weapon he fired, a Vympel R-73, was seen hitting the jet he was pursuing across the Line of Control. His own radar warning receiver was blaring by this time, and while he said to have attempted countermeasures to ‘go cold’, his aircraft was struck by what is believed to be an AIM-20 AMRAAM missile, bringing him and his jet down across the Line of Control in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir.
The word ‘visual’ is, interestingly, US Air Force pilot-speak for ‘friendly aircraft in sight’, as opposed to ‘tally’, which denotes an enemy aircraft in visual range.
Livefist has had a chance to review select debrief data and speak with IAF officers familiar with the unprecedented aerial face-off on the morning of February 27.
On the morning of February 27 — a day after Indian air strikes in Balakot, Pakistan — the Indian Air Force had two standing combat air patrols in the Jammu & Kashmir area — a pair of upgraded Mirage 2000s and two Su-30 MKIs, along with a Netra airborne early warning and control jet and a Phalcon AWACS keeping watch. The initial ‘pick-up’ of the approaching Pakistan Air Force fighter package was by ground radars. The inbound force was a large one, comprising at least 24 PAF jets in separate loose formations. Among the jets were at least three Dassault Mirage III aircraft armed with strike weapons. When the formation crossed from Pakistan in airspace over PoK, the Indian Air Force scrambled six MiG-21 Bison interceptors — three from Srinagar and three from Avantipora.
The Pakistani jets were inbound from a west-south westerly direction. A very loose mixed formation of Mirage IIIs deployed H-4 stand-off precision guided glide bombs with penetrator warheads at Indian military installations in the Rajouri sector with some of them hitting military land, but not causing any damage to structures or establishment buildings. Livefist has had a chance to review photographs of the weapon remnants recovered on the Indian side, including the starboard fin section of an H-4 bomb bearing the serial number ‘P695’. The photographs, apparently refuting Pakistani claims that their strikes were deliberately mis-aimed only to send India a counter-message after the Balakot strikes, are part of an Indian Air Force dossier of the day’s proceedings that will be submitted to the government this week. The IAF’s official conclusion in this dossier is that the H-4 bombs were deployed specifically to cause damage.
As the stand-off strikes took place, an air-to-air battle commenced with the two Indian Su-30s reporting (in their debrief) repeated radar locks from what they say were Pakistani F-16s beyond visual range, and manoeuvering in the air to turn ‘cold’ on the weapon locks. IAF sources indicated to Livefist that the said F-16s were looking specifically to shoot down a Su-30 — something that would have been a major loss for the IAF. The Su-30s (and later, three of the MiG-21s) are said to have flown patterns to remain ‘kinematically safe’ against the repeated AMRAAM locks even as the distance between the Indian and Pakistani jets loosely closed over the Line of Control. The hot-cold radar lock sequence continued for several minutes, with the said PAF F-16s repeatedly attempting to sustain locks on the Su-30 MKIs long enough for meaningful shots. Sources say the three AMRAAMs were launched in DMAX-1, the dynamic attack zone where the missile is unleashed at the limits of its range. On all three occasions, the Su-30s used countermeasures to dodge the incoming weapons.
While the other jets, including the Mirage 2000s also recorded locks on them from the said F-16s, Wing Commander Abhinandan’s MiG-21 out front was also ‘hot’ on an AMRAAM. However, he was now fully within visual range of an F-16 that was turning away to speed back towards Pakistan-occupied Kashmir. Livefist has been given to understand that Wing Commander responded to two warnings from radar controllers to turn back (since he was minutes from crossing into hostile airspace) with radar calls saying he had an aircraft in visual range and was attempting a manual close combat lock. Moments later, with his lock confirmed, he gave a final call saying he had the lock tone, before launching a single Vympel R-73 heat seeking missile. The pilot would later record in a debriefing that he saw his missile hit the retreating F-16 in the port rear section and that it was brought down. Moments later Wing Commander Abhinandan initiated evasive maneouvers to defeat the incoming AMRAAM. It remains unclear though if the missile struck his MiG-21, or if his jet was hit by air defence gunfire from the ground, forcing the pilot to punch out.
The R-73 fired by Wing Commander Abhinandan was the only Indian weapon launched during the aerial engagement, leading the Indian Air Force to officially attribute the F-16 kill to him. None of the other jets launched weapons — IAF sources suggest this was owing to a lack of target solutions at beyond visual range, though this will be the subject of investigation. It is also likely that rules of engagement had been modified, though the IAF has refused to confirm or deny. Several such questions remain unanswered at this time, including just why even a large package of fighters were able to test the ‘air superiority’ capabilities of the Su-30 MKI, the flagship of the Indian Air Force.
Had Abhinandan’s MiG-21 not managed to bring down a PAF jet, the proceedings above Sunderbani sector on February 27 would likely attract far more sweeping scrutiny. Experts believe it still should.
Visual. And locked. That was the final radio call from IAF pilot Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman’s MiG-21 Bison before he pushed a button on his stick, letting loose the only weapon fired by the eight Indian jets in the air at the time. The weapon he fired, a Vympel R-73, was seen hitting the jet he was pursuing across the Line of Control. His own radar warning receiver was blaring by this time, and while he said to have attempted countermeasures to ‘go cold’, his aircraft was struck by what is believed to be an AIM-20 AMRAAM missile, bringing him and his jet down across the Line of Control in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir.
The word ‘visual’ is, interestingly, US Air Force pilot-speak for ‘friendly aircraft in sight’, as opposed to ‘tally’, which denotes an enemy aircraft in visual range.
Livefist has had a chance to review select debrief data and speak with IAF officers familiar with the unprecedented aerial face-off on the morning of February 27.
On the morning of February 27 — a day after Indian air strikes in Balakot, Pakistan — the Indian Air Force had two standing combat air patrols in the Jammu & Kashmir area — a pair of upgraded Mirage 2000s and two Su-30 MKIs, along with a Netra airborne early warning and control jet and a Phalcon AWACS keeping watch. The initial ‘pick-up’ of the approaching Pakistan Air Force fighter package was by ground radars. The inbound force was a large one, comprising at least 24 PAF jets in separate loose formations. Among the jets were at least three Dassault Mirage III aircraft armed with strike weapons. When the formation crossed from Pakistan in airspace over PoK, the Indian Air Force scrambled six MiG-21 Bison interceptors — three from Srinagar and three from Avantipora.
The Pakistani jets were inbound from a west-south westerly direction. A very loose mixed formation of Mirage IIIs deployed H-4 stand-off precision guided glide bombs with penetrator warheads at Indian military installations in the Rajouri sector with some of them hitting military land, but not causing any damage to structures or establishment buildings. Livefist has had a chance to review photographs of the weapon remnants recovered on the Indian side, including the starboard fin section of an H-4 bomb bearing the serial number ‘P695’. The photographs, apparently refuting Pakistani claims that their strikes were deliberately mis-aimed only to send India a counter-message after the Balakot strikes, are part of an Indian Air Force dossier of the day’s proceedings that will be submitted to the government this week. The IAF’s official conclusion in this dossier is that the H-4 bombs were deployed specifically to cause damage.
As the stand-off strikes took place, an air-to-air battle commenced with the two Indian Su-30s reporting (in their debrief) repeated radar locks from what they say were Pakistani F-16s beyond visual range, and manoeuvering in the air to turn ‘cold’ on the weapon locks. IAF sources indicated to Livefist that the said F-16s were looking specifically to shoot down a Su-30 — something that would have been a major loss for the IAF. The Su-30s (and later, three of the MiG-21s) are said to have flown patterns to remain ‘kinematically safe’ against the repeated AMRAAM locks even as the distance between the Indian and Pakistani jets loosely closed over the Line of Control. The hot-cold radar lock sequence continued for several minutes, with the said PAF F-16s repeatedly attempting to sustain locks on the Su-30 MKIs long enough for meaningful shots. Sources say the three AMRAAMs were launched in DMAX-1, the dynamic attack zone where the missile is unleashed at the limits of its range. On all three occasions, the Su-30s used countermeasures to dodge the incoming weapons.
While the other jets, including the Mirage 2000s also recorded locks on them from the said F-16s, Wing Commander Abhinandan’s MiG-21 out front was also ‘hot’ on an AMRAAM. However, he was now fully within visual range of an F-16 that was turning away to speed back towards Pakistan-occupied Kashmir. Livefist has been given to understand that Wing Commander responded to two warnings from radar controllers to turn back (since he was minutes from crossing into hostile airspace) with radar calls saying he had an aircraft in visual range and was attempting a manual close combat lock. Moments later, with his lock confirmed, he gave a final call saying he had the lock tone, before launching a single Vympel R-73 heat seeking missile. The pilot would later record in a debriefing that he saw his missile hit the retreating F-16 in the port rear section and that it was brought down. Moments later Wing Commander Abhinandan initiated evasive maneouvers to defeat the incoming AMRAAM. It remains unclear though if the missile struck his MiG-21, or if his jet was hit by air defence gunfire from the ground, forcing the pilot to punch out.
The R-73 fired by Wing Commander Abhinandan was the only Indian weapon launched during the aerial engagement, leading the Indian Air Force to officially attribute the F-16 kill to him. None of the other jets launched weapons — IAF sources suggest this was owing to a lack of target solutions at beyond visual range, though this will be the subject of investigation. It is also likely that rules of engagement had been modified, though the IAF has refused to confirm or deny. Several such questions remain unanswered at this time, including just why even a large package of fighters were able to test the ‘air superiority’ capabilities of the Su-30 MKI, the flagship of the Indian Air Force.
Had Abhinandan’s MiG-21 not managed to bring down a PAF jet, the proceedings above Sunderbani sector on February 27 would likely attract far more sweeping scrutiny. Experts believe it still should.
Did I not tell you all that WC Abhi had seen his R-73 hit the aircraft as he maintained his interception even when the R-73 was fired in LOBL mode.
Now recollect what all I had posted about BVR combat. A Dmax-1 launch will most likely be dodged and Meteor suffers from this problem because it will have a hot tail and will be visual to MAWS thruout its flight and will be easily avoided by just kinematics and vacating the area unless you have two way data link with the missile. Even in that, the chances of dodging Meteor are pretty high. The best range to fire a BVRAAM is still just outside the WVR envelope and IR MICA-NG will be a deadly missile for that job.
Not sure if it's that simple. The Israelis claim the I Derby-ER will be 80% as capable as the Meteor.
This was written in Aviation Week.
Unlike the AIM-120D or Meteor, I-Derby ER will be compatible with aircraft currently cleared to carry Derby. RAFAEL claims it will be able to deliver 80% of the Meteor’s performance at a third of its cost. It is also superior to the AIM-120C7 and more affordable, the company claims.Already cleared on F-16 (Block 52), F-5E, Kfir and Sea Harrier, I-Derby ER integration tests are currently under way on the Indian Tejas LCA.
USAF has the philosophy of firing AMRAAM-D from 130kms, this is to allow the 8 seconds boost pahse to die down before the missile enters the zone where MAWS can pick up the launch and give a launch point estimation. Best of MAWS today can pick up an AMRAAM launch from 42NM which is about 75 kms. Now the missile is gliding to its target with a cold tail giving very little IR signature for MAWS to pick it up. Once it reaches close to its target, the dual pulse kicks in and the seeker opens which gives very little time for the target to engage in evasive maneuvres.
I will anyday go for a dual pulse missile than a Ramjet powered missile. Meteor is good only for HVTs and not for fighters equipped with doppler MAWS which can calculate time to impact and also very agile jammers and towed decoys.
Whatever happened to heavy movement of Pakistani Army in Poonch sector? Twitter spies lost their asset in that movement? No update since then.
You are incorrectly assuming that the Meteor is going to burn brighter than solid rocket during cruise. There is no proof of either happening.
BAE scientists have pointed out that the Meteor will be no different than a solid rocket during the cruise phase, the high speed acceleration is primarily during the intercept phase.
MBDA’s Meteor — The Most Advanced Beyond-visual-range Air-to-Air Missile in the World
Meteor operates in three phases; first, it accelerates to cruising speed and altitude, then in its mid-course phase, the missile optimises its speed and direction in readiness for the final intercept phase. In the intercept phase, by virtue of its propulsion system, Meteor can accelerate to minimise the chances of the target escaping. It is this ability to retain energy and accelerate in the ‘end game’ that gives Meteor its unique advantage.
Rather, during cruise, while the solid rocket's speed actually starts dropping, the Meteor maintains its speed.
Even when the Meteor program was ongoing, Raytheon had offered to develop a dual thrust solid rocket called the ERAAM as a stop gap measure, and that it would have 80% of the FMRAAM's capabilities. The FMRAAM was basically an Aim-120 with a French ramjet. And then the ERAAM would be upgraded with a ramjet in order to fulfil the FMRAAM requirements. And even this FMRAAM lost to the Meteor.
My assumption is the Meteor is in fact much more stealthier than the solid rocket even during cruise phase.
Dear Sir,Welcome back.
On point. From the write up:
Moreover, the IAF had also carried the Crystal Maze AGM 142 munition along with the Spice 2000 to hit the target. The Crystal Maze PGM could not, however, be fired because of heavy cloud cover which did not allow pilots to have a line of sight over the target area.
I agree. Bunch of idiots indeed. We do know that this paragraph is the funniest of all. Anyone with even the most basic of understanding of air operations, especially the planning and execution of offensive air operations, would laugh at this one. Why? Because meteorological reports are studied and operations are planned around that, not 'we will see how is the weather there, abhi yeh missile laga lo'
In addition, FACs along with GLOs in Infantry Brigades, will be giving weather inputs in real time just before a flight is undertaken in the area. Right before the actual take off.
So, IAF could not fire because of "heavy cloud cover which did not allow pilots to have a line of sight over the target area." is amusing to note indeed.
@randomradio @vstol Jockey your views on INS guidance on board the Crystal Maze (for initial guidance) and applicability of 'bad weather' precluding a launch?
Are you Hellfire at the other forum?
The following points have been asked elsewhere (am i allowed to mention the forum and the member?). Can you clarify on the same?
- SPICE is a strap-down SOW kit. A KIT. Their is no penetrator version of the SPICE. It is simply a SOW kit, compatible with different munitions (mainly 1000lbs and 2000lbs munitions). It is up to the customer to choose whatever munition it desires (compatible with SPICE).
- Rafael is the OEM of SPICE, not the munition. Who is the OEM of the "penetrator" munition that IAF possesses, and when was it inducted?
- Why not use just Crystal Maze, if it could have done the same job plus bring down the buildings? Why waste the SPICE "penetrators"?
- I commend the author (Sameer Joshi) for the analysis involving the actual mathematics, specially overpressure. But it seems that it has been written with the intent to justify IAF's claim, by hook or by crook. Misleading assumptions have been made, and clever 'rounding off' has been done to prove the point.
Your knowledge is incomplete. It is correct that SPICE is an add on kit which guides the bomb. The bomb itself has many variations and one of those variants was the blast overpressure which was used in Balakot strikes. Only SPICE250 is available as a complete bomb.
Thanks for the reply. Actually i have practically quoted a few points raised by a member elsewhere (just changed the language a bit to avoid plagiarism
). The clarifications to points 2-4 will help to partly counter back Pakistan's narrative. Why were both SPICE and Crystal Maze to be used when the latter alone could have sufficed? What about point 4?
The strike was to have two distinct phases, first was to kill all the terrorists and second was to demolish the structures. The Cystal Maze for that job and could not be used. This allowed Pakistan to claim no damage done. If after killing the terrorists, we had struck them with crystal maze, the entire structure would have been brought down and would have been visible to everyone.Thanks for the reply. Actually i have practically quoted a few points raised by a member elsewhere (just changed the language a bit to avoid plagiarism
Wouldn't Crystal Maze alone done both jobs - since bringing down the structure would ensure that most of them would be killed or maimed? This is part of what was asked by that guy.
Or maybe Crystal Maze would not have penetrated like SPICE 2000 - is this correct?
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Meteor has a boost phase, a sustainer phase and final end game phase. The initial boost is provided by the rocket motor which ignites the ramjet. This throttleable Ramjet remains on thruout the flight thereafter but at a very low thrust which allows the missile to maintain its speed. In the final end game, this ramjet provides extra thrust to allow very high manuevreability. It is during this cruise phase when ramjet has lowest power that it can be detected from miles. A normal missile has a boost phase and after that its rocket motor goes cold, it cruises and its speed decays. Once its seeker opens and locks on, the second pulse cuts in to increase its kinetic energy. Therefore during the cruise phase, a normal missile has nearly zero IR signature. The difference between a meteor and a normal missile is that of a rocket and a projectile.
Crytal maze would not have penetrated deep inside and reached the lower floors of the structure which only SPICE could do. Using crystal maze alon would have caused extensive damage to the structure but may not have killed as many people as SPICE did.
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