India-US GE414 engine production partnership deal

[Ankit Kumar]

So still working on necessary export permissions from US government.

And considering GE mentions AMCA MK2 seperately, it means Indian Government is still looking for a development partner (where it get it's hand on IPR) for AMCA MK2.

 

[Ashwin]

Let's hope this won't distract the government from the real target of achieving joint development of the AMCA mk2 engine with a partner.

In an ideal world, In this decade i would like to see:

• HAL-GE producing the GE-414 locally
• GTRE-Safran JV working on a 110kn engine with full IP
• GTRE-HAL working on a next-generation engine technology demonstrator (something like the IHI Corporation XF9) to refine technologies for sixth-generation requirements in the 2040s.

Also, I don't see a reason why HAL's engines division should be part of the parent company. It should be carved out to become an efficient monopoly in a positive sense. It should be able to capitalise its position to invest in R&D. Being with HAL its not possible, they have so many other priorities besides engine. Today, projects like HTFE-25 or HTSE-1200 are not a priority. They will always be resource constrained and late. A separate entity will help with the long term vision and execution.

@Parthu @randomradio @Nilgiri @Ankit Kumar @Rajput Lion @vstol Jockey @Milspec

 

[Rajput Lion]

Let's hope this won't distract the government from the real target of achieving joint development of the AMCA mk2 engine with a partner.

Exactly. This "should" indeed be our main goal.

In an ideal world, In this decade i would like to see:

• HAL-GE producing the GE-414 locally

Happening.

• GTRE-Safran JV working on a 110kn engine with full IP

French like to keep their secrets close to their chest. If this happens then it's going to be awesome. Because for us France>>USA, 100 out of 100 times as a time-tested reliable friend.

• GTRE-HAL working on a next-generation engine technology demonstrator (something like the IHI Corporation XF9) to refine technologies for sixth-generation requirements in the 2040s.

Agreed. This tech is vital for our MKI replacement. Otherwise, our future military aviation will suffer hugely.

Also, I don't see a reason why HAL's engines division should be part of the parent company. It should be carved out to become an efficient monopoly in a positive sense. It should be able to capitalise its position to invest in R&D. Being with HAL its not possible, they have so many other priorities besides engine. Projects like HTFE-25 or HTSE-1200 are not a priority. They will always be resource constrained and late. A separate entity will help with the long term vision and execution.

@Parthu @randomradio @Nilgiri @Ankit Kumar @Rajput Lion @vstol Jockey @Milspec

This is quite interesting line of thought. What about involving private companies like Tata etc. to join this future aero engines R&D and production? Let some of these become our P&W and GE. What say?

 

[RASALGHUL]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1670794135312187401

To put things into perspective. Not sure How much truth is in this tweet......

 

[Ankit Kumar]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1670794135312187401

To put things into perspective. Not sure How much truth is in this tweet......

For one moment I too thought that he might be onto something.

But then again. 1st bear in mind that the GE F414 ToT/Production in India is associated with increasing the localisation percentage in LCA MK2 (primary goal) and not as a ToT to help us create an engine for our AMCA MK2.

Once you accept this in your mind, then we can start comparing how many countries have US given licence assembly of jet engines to. The answer is quite a few. The F110 engines of F16s were assembled in multiple nations and so were the GE404.

But GE 414 has only 2 examples. Cooperation with Sweden (they make some parts, send it to US where US Manufacturers the engine and sends it back to Sweden where they test it) is small. Same is the case with South Korea currently. India is the only one where GE F414 will actually be produced locally. And with a high localisation content.

Coming back to F110/ GE404. Well let me say, for the reading I did, I think they all are at the similar level , like our licence assembly of RD33.

This is how I look. You may choose not to believe it, but I invite everyone to atleast think of it without any prejudices.

 

[Hydra]

Terrible,the fuss we made for few days on engine deal sign is turned out to be mere an mou.

 

[Ashwin]

President Biden and Prime Minister Modi hailed the landmark signing of an MoU between General Electric and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited for the manufacture of GE F-414 jet engines in India, for the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited Light Combat Aircraft Mk 2. This trailblazing initiative to manufacture F-414 engines in India will enable greater transfer of U.S. jet engine technology than ever before. The leaders committed their governments to working collaboratively and expeditiously to support the advancement of this unprecedented co-production and technology transfer proposal.

Joint Statement from the United States and India | The White House

1. President Joseph R. Biden, Jr. and Prime Minister Narendra Modi today affirmed a vision of the United States and India as among the closest

www.whitehouse.gov

 

[Ashwin]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1670794135312187401

To put things into perspective. Not sure How much truth is in this tweet......

He is correct, but for India-US relations this is a monumental step. Unimaginable just a decade back.

 

[randomradio]

Let's hope this won't distract the government from the real target of achieving joint development of the AMCA mk2 engine with a partner.

In an ideal world, In this decade i would like to see:

• HAL-GE producing the GE-414 locally
• GTRE-Safran JV working on a 110kn engine with full IP
• GTRE-HAL working on a next-generation engine technology demonstrator (something like the IHI Corporation XF9) to refine technologies for sixth-generation requirements in the 2040s.

Also, I don't see a reason why HAL's engines division should be part of the parent company. It should be carved out to become an efficient monopoly in a positive sense. It should be able to capitalise its position to invest in R&D. Being with HAL its not possible, they have so many other priorities besides engine. Projects like HTFE-25 or HTSE-1200 are not a priority. They will always be resource constrained and late. A separate entity will help with the long term vision and execution.

@Parthu @randomradio @Nilgiri @Ankit Kumar @Rajput Lion @vstol Jockey @Milspec

As long as the F414 ToT works out, ie, we get 100% ToT, then GE would make a better partner, 'cause they also supply us with the LM2500, and we need that engine as well.

GTRE should work on next gen engines on its own. A partnership will make HAL a monopoly. So the govt won't allow it anyway.

 

[randomradio]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1670794135312187401

To put things into perspective. Not sure How much truth is in this tweet......

They only make cold parts.

Some articles have mentioned 100% ToT, eventually, and some have said 80%. We have to work that out. The former is necessary to make it unprecedented, the latter is irrelevant and sanctionable.

 

[Valhalla]

Now that MoU is signed this news piece details the next steps.. Interestingly they talk about a "family of engines" and GE's collaboration on Mk2 engine.

HAL, General Electric sign MoU to manufacture jet engine, mark new era for India-US defence ties

Deal is one of big highlights of PM Modi's visit to the US. While India & other countries manufacture their own fighter aircraft, only a select few make jet engines.

theprint.in

..an actual deal will be signed once both sides thrash out the nitty gritties and the deal goes through the US Congress, the permission of which will be required.

The clearance from the US Congress is a 30-day process.

..Once cleared, HAL will carry out the work at its Engine Division facility in Bengaluru and the co-production will not be through a joint venture, the sources said.

..Asked about how much of transfer of technology (ToT) is involved given the fact that some reports have put the value at 80 per cent, sources refused to get into the details saying that everything is still under discussion and finer details are yet to be firmed up.

“The level of ToT and the engine manufacturing work done in India will be very significant. This is not an assembly, but joint production that will take place,” a source said.

..Sources said that the road taken for partnership could eventually lead to joint design, development, and manufacture of more powerful engines. As per the schedule plan, the process will involve first making components for the engines in phases before actually moving to the full step up which will take at least a decade, the sources said.

..“It puts the company in a strong position to create a family of products in India, including the F404 engine that currently powers the LCA Mk1 and LCA Mk1A aircraft and GE Aerospace’s selection for the prototype development, testing and certification of the AMCA programme with our F414-INS6 engine,” the statement said.

It further said that GE will continue to collaborate with the Indian government on the AMCA Mk2 engine programme.

 

[Ashwin]

They only make cold parts.

Some articles have mentioned 100% ToT, eventually, and some have said 80%. We have to work that out. The former is necessary to make it unprecedented, the latter is irrelevant and sanctionable.

There is no 100% ToT . There cannot be.

You keep topping off optimisation scale.

GTRE should work on next gen engines on its own. A partnership will make HAL a monopoly. So the govt won't allow it anyway.

HAL engine div will be the production house. There is no other option. It's already a state run monopoly. It doesn't make any sense to develop next generation of engine and give it to non existent private player.

 

[randomradio]

There is no 100% ToT . There cannot be.

You keep topping off optimisation scale.

100% ToT is necessary for AMCA's engine. So whoever gives 100% gains the advantage.

100% ToT depends on the size of the order. So 80% ToT is possible very quickly. And the remaining will come in with new batch orders of engines beyond a certain threshold. Meaning 120 LCAs and 45 TEDBF would mean lesser ToT versus 200 LCAs and 90 TEDBFs plus some 100+ in exports. Makes sense?

HAL engine div will be the production house. There is no other option. It's already a state run monopoly. It doesn't make any sense to develop next generation of engine and give it to non existent private player.

Depends on MRFA. If Safran chooses HAL, then yeah. But there's a possibility for Tata to enter the market given they want to bring in aircraft production in a big way into India, starting with the C-295, followed by bigger aircraft like jetliners. There's Kalyani as well. The IAF's MTA program is coming up and will see private player participation via JVs. And we know the French are open to working with new players.

AMCA is expected to be PPP anyway.

 

[Ashwin]

100% ToT is necessary for AMCA's engine. So whoever gives 100% gains the advantage.

100% ToT depends on the size of the order. So 80% ToT is possible very quickly. And the remaining will come in with new batch orders of engines beyond a certain threshold. Meaning 120 LCAs and 45 TEDBF would mean lesser ToT versus 200 LCAs and 90 TEDBFs plus some 100+ in exports. Makes sense?

So you are mixing AMCA mk2 engine with this? I would prefer that to be a clean sheet joint development engine.

100% is not depended on order, it's just not possible. No one will share to technology like SCB. That too US, with them that's UK nuclear reactor technology level partnership.

It's not good for us also. Whatever we get will be production ToT. We will not know how it was developed. We need to learn how/why and not just what. We need that experience to develop our next generation engine.

Depends on MRFA. If Safran chooses HAL, then yeah. But there's a possibility for Tata to enter the market given they want to bring in aircraft production in a big way into India, starting with the C-295, followed by bigger aircraft like jetliners. There's Kalyani as well. The IAF's MTA program is coming up and will see private player participation via JVs. And we know the French are open to working with new players.

AMCA is expected to be PPP anyway.

Again no. It's not depended on MRFA. That will not magically make a new aero engine production house.

HAL engine division has a vast experience of 40-50 years building all kind of engines with all infrastructure established. Now they are developing their own engines. There is no competition.

Even Safran is looking to assemble M88 with HAL !. It's an established monopoly.

Safran and HAL sign MoU on military engine collaboration

www.safran-group.com

 

[Ashwin]

This is quite interesting line of thought. What about involving private companies like Tata etc. to join this future aero engines R&D and production? Let some of these become our P&W and GE. What say?

Similar answer above.

We don't have such a big market to have multiple engine houses. We don't have the R&D ecosystem to even fund one. That will not change.

In civil aerospace you can't restrict to use Indian engines. That's why only US has two duopoly. Everywhere else there can only be one champion. The idea of carving out HAL engines is to create that champion.

Look at TEI of turkey, Safran of France and British RR. We can only emulator them.

 

[randomradio]

So you are mixing AMCA mk2 engine with this? I would prefer that to be a clean sheet joint development engine.

100% is not depended on order, it's just not possible. No one will share to technology like SCB. That too US, with them that's UK nuclear reactor technology level partnership.

It's not good for us also. Whatever we get will be production ToT. We will not know how it was developed. We need to learn how/why and not just what. We need that experience to develop our next generation engine.

100% ToT is a requirement for AMCA's engine. It's a clean-sheet design, and FOEMs are expected to not only provide 100% ToT, but also the full IP. So if the Americans cannot provide 100% ToT for older tech, then how can they expected to match AMCA's requirements?

AMCA engine is expected to give us the know-how and know-why.

Anyway:

'Pentagon Ensured 100 Per Cent Tech Transfer For GE Engine Manufacturing In India Despite State Department Hurdles': Report

The Pentagon made sure that General Electric (GE) makes 100 per cent transfer of technology (ToT) for GE F-414 engines to India while the US state department bureaucracy put hurdles, reported Hindustan Times

swarajyamag.com

Fact is that the US has never shared aircraft engine technology for manufacturing in a third country including the “hot engine” technology with even their closest ally," the report says.

"Despite the State Department trying to place hurdles, the Pentagon and National Security Council under Sullivan have ensured that 100 per cent transfer of technology for the manufacture of GE’s F-414 engine is possible in India," the report further adds.

DefExpo 2022: IAF to phase out Mig-29, Mirage and Jaguar fighter jets by 2035; LCA Mk2 will replace them

While six squadrons of the Jaguar fighter aircraft would be retired by 2032 in a phased manner, commencing from 2025, three squadrons of Mig-21 to be retired by 2024, followed by phasing out of three squadrons each of Mirage 2000 and MiG-29 fleets by late next decade.

newsable.asianetnews.com

Dr Madhusudana further said that the Mk2 has more indigenous content than the Mk1 and the Mk1A.

"We started with 75 per cent and will reach 82 per cent. The engine will be manufactured in India. In this regard, we had MoU with GE for its manufacturing with 100 per cent transfer of technology. With that, we will be touching over 90 per cent indigenous content," he said.

These reports are most likely right. It's very likely that GE plans to source 80% in value for other markets, meaning exports from India.

Makes sense too. After all, both Safran and GE are expected to transfer 100% of a more advanced AMCA engine.

Again no. It's not depended on MRFA. That will not magically make a new aero engine production house.

HAL engine division has a vast experience of 40-50 years building all kind of engines with all infrastructure established. Now they are developing their own engines. There is no competition.

Even Safran is looking to assemble M88 with HAL !. It's an established monopoly.

Safran and HAL sign MoU on military engine collaboration

www.safran-group.com

It's not like Reliance had any experience, but Dassault chose them anyway. The French are choosing partners based on what they bring and how trainable they are.

While Safran has a history with HAL, the final result will only come out after MRFA is complete. It's a fresh tender and even private players are gonna compete, even as subcontractors. An MoU is not a contract. If a private player gives Safran a better deal, they will jump ship.

 

[Ashwin]

100% ToT is a requirement for AMCA's engine. It's a clean-sheet design, and FOEMs are expected to not only provide 100% ToT, but also the full IP. So if the Americans cannot provide 100% ToT for older tech, then how can they expected to match AMCA's requirements?

AMCA engine is expected to give us the know-how and know-why.

They dont !. This MoU specifically says it for Mk2 and AMCA mk1.

Where did you get the idea that this is for AMCA MK2?

Fact is that the US has never shared aircraft engine technology for manufacturing in a third country including the “hot engine” technology with even their closest ally," the report says.

"Despite the State Department trying to place hurdles, the Pentagon and National Security Council under Sullivan have ensured that 100 per cent transfer of technology for the manufacture of GE’s F-414 engine is possible in India," the report further adds.

Lot of water has flown under the bridge after NSA Sullivan's visit. Modi went to US and MoU has been signed. The writer is quoting "reports" nothing substantial. Later reports are quoting 80% by value: India-US deal on jet engines to pave the way for 80% tech transfer by value

https://twitter.com/x/status/1672431700822077440

Dr Madhusudana further said that the Mk2 has more indigenous content than the Mk1 and the Mk1A.

"We started with 75 per cent and will reach 82 per cent. The engine will be manufactured in India. In this regard, we had MoU with GE for its manufacturing with 100 per cent transfer of technology. With that, we will be touching over 90 per cent indigenous content," he said.

Random comments by drdo guy a year back has no relevance now. Its all about what they can offer not what we wish. What they can offer is 80% which makes sense.

Here is former HAL chairman saying the same about current agreement:

Makes sense too. After all, both Safran and GE are expected to transfer 100% of a more advanced AMCA engine.

I still dont understand why are you mixing two projects?

It's not like Reliance had any experience, but Dassault chose them anyway. The French are choosing partners based on what they bring and how trainable they are.

While Safran has a history with HAL, the final result will only come out after MRFA is complete. It's a fresh tender and even private players are gonna compete, even as subcontractors. An MoU is not a contract. If a private player gives Safran a better deal, they will jump ship.

Again, there is zero chance of a private competition on aero engines.

Dassault choose some random private entity for final airframe integration not engine production. Big difference!.

For MRFA, they have already selected HAL with MoU. For MMRCA, it was always HAL anyway. No other option.

 

[randomradio]

They dont !. This MoU specifically says it for Mk2 and AMCA mk1.

Where did you get the idea that this is for AMCA MK2?

This engine is not for AMCA, but it's necessary to open up the road to AMCA.

Lot of water has flown under the bridge after NSA Sullivan's visit. Modi went to US and MoU has been signed. The writer is quoting "reports" nothing substantial. Later reports are quoting 80% by value: India-US deal on jet engines to pave the way for 80% tech transfer by value

https://twitter.com/x/status/1672431700822077440

Random comments by drdo guy a year back has no relevance now. Its all about what they can offer not what we wish. What they can offer is 80% which makes sense.

Here is former HAL chairman saying the same about current agreement:

He's basically saying we will get 100% ToT for production, but we won't be making the American SCB in India, that we will have to make our own using the American-supplied production tech. But at the same time he says the engine numbers have to increase to make it economical.

I still dont understand why are you mixing two projects?

'Cause the requirement for AMCA engine is 100%, and if they don't provide that for F414, then are unlikely to do the same for more advanced materials for AMCA.

What I'm saying is the F414 is still sanctionable and GE won't win the AMCA deal. It will now favour the French and the British.

Again, there is zero chance of a private competition on aero engines.

Dassault choose some random private entity for final airframe integration not engine production. Big difference!.

For MRFA, they have already selected HAL with MoU. For MMRCA, it was always HAL anyway. No other option.

You have something confused here. GTRE is the design house, the manufacturer can be anybody.

While I think Safran is most likely to choose HAL, given their history, HAL is not like Safran, RR, GE etc, they didn't design the engines they are manufacturing. So HAL employees in the manufacturing process can easily be poached by the private sector.

So the road's not closed. While HAL is guaranteed to manufacture F414 and Dry Kaveri, the MRFA engine is still up for grabs and more importantly, the main target is AMCA's engine, which will define Indian aviation for the next 50 years.

 

[Ashwin]

'Cause the requirement for AMCA engine is 100%, and if they don't provide that for F414, then are unlikely to do the same for more advanced materials for AMCA.

What I'm saying is the F414 is still sanctionable and GE won't win the AMCA deal. It will now favour the French and the British.

Exactly, then why are you taking 100% for GE414 as a given ? No one officially said it will be. Why mix both programs.

He's basically saying we will get 100% ToT for production,

Who exactly? GE ? HAL?

You have something confused here. GTRE is the design house, the manufacturer can be anybody.

While I think Safran is most likely to choose HAL, given their history, HAL is not like Safran, RR, GE etc, they didn't design the engines they are manufacturing. So HAL employees in the manufacturing process can easily be poached by the private sector.

So the road's not closed. While HAL is guaranteed to manufacture F414 and Dry Kaveri, the MRFA engine is still up for grabs and more importantly, the main target is AMCA's engine, which will define Indian aviation for the next 50 years.

No, i think you got confused.

My entire argument is that since HAL engine division is the most experienced and de facto go to place make aero engine in this country. We should carve it out to make it something like Safran/TEI. Where they should be designing and producing all kind of engines. Independent of the DRDO ecosystem.

 

[randomradio]

Exactly, then why are you taking 100% for GE414 as a given ? No one officially said it will be. Why mix both programs.

The MoU we signed was for 100% ToT. The official stance today is the discussions are still on for final ToT numbers.

In fact, I think people are confused about some things. GE said they will source 80% of the value of the engine from India. But it appears ToT discussions are still ongoing.

Who exactly? GE ? HAL?

He's saying GE will give HAL 100% production tech, but not SCB tech. So eventually HAL can replace the American SCB with an Indian one.

No, i think you got confused.

My entire argument is that since HAL engine division is the most experienced and de facto go to place make aero engine in this country. We should carve it out to make it something like Safran/TEI. Where they should be designing and producing all kind of engines. Independent of the DRDO ecosystem.

That's not a good idea. We need 2 design houses and 2 manufacturers at the minimum. 1 each, public and private. The Indian military market is too big for a monopoly. At the very least, even if we are stuck with GTRE, we still need 2 manufacturers.