On digging the above topic further, actually it's seems as though Mig 1.44 was slightly bigger(longer/wider/heavier) than J-20.
Rest of my points stand though.
Rest of my points stand though.
India vs China - War Gaming Scenarios : Related News , Updates , Discussions & Analysis .
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Before being able to track something you have to be able to detect it. Without radar it's very difficult against passive opponents. And Rafale can be totally passive.
Why is it difficult ? Try to imagine if you have an IRST capable of 100000 pixel to cover 360 degrees. (or 4 pi) =, at 100 km an F-22 (18,9 m) make 0,00019 rad or 0,01 degre. With that You just have three pixels to understand what you have. And you don't even know at what distance you have this object.
Rafale is smaller (15 m) than f-22 and then more difficult to detect.
How many IRST have 100000 pixels today ?
What about software combining detection by L band & tracking it too alongside IRST . The Su-57 already have L band radars. If they have it, you can bet the Chinese have it too.
If Chinese IRST can track Raptor from 100 kms away, then you can bet it can detect Raptor much further. Modern QWIP based IRST is a total passive stealth killer tech.
Anyways, this is just hypothetical. All theories go out of the window once the first shot is fired. Then your bravery, intelligence and ability to surprise your opponents matter a lot.
Yes of course but I was talking being totally passive. In that case you can't emit even in L band.
To be totally clear I am not very convince by such performances. That's not the first time that chinese claim somethings they don't have.
That's why I have give some figure to make clear the performance that chinese or everyone else have to obtain.
Then you also have to understand that J-20 is a very big plane twice the size of a rafale. And SIZE matter by far to the other parameters when you want to stay passive. That's mean that for example that with the same technology a rafale can detect à J-20 at twice the distance that a J-20 can detect a rafale. It is only because J-20 is twice as big as a rafale.
An other point is to understand what a detection is with a pixel matrix. The only thing that you can say is that one of your pixel receive energy and give an angle. But you are not able to say if it is a J-20 at 100 km and cruising at 900 km/h or a rafale at 50 km cruising at 450 km/h or a bayraktar TB2 at 30 km cruising at 300 km/h or a 20 cm bird at 1 km cruising at 9km/h. If you follow me well you have a detection but you can not act because you don't know what it is, where it is and if it is a threat.
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ANd now what you have to understand is that a fighter can hunt being totally passive but only if they are both of them or more and that they can communicate their detections because that's the only way to obtain a position.
As I said my French friend that 1 vs 1 is pure hypothesis as actual fight will involve plenty of other assets. Rafale is an awesome plane but we always need to remain cautious of our enemy and should never underestimate it.
Chinese may have all the gizmos, but IAF is the true champion of air. The next war will prove it(my personal opinion).
Absolutely confident. The training, tactics and battle-experience of IAF is way ahead of PLAAF.
Recently there was some news about PLAAF and PLAN recruiting UK/US/NATO ex-pilots to train their pilots as per NATO standards.
TACDE(if you know what it is), has already perfected those tactics that the Chinese are trying to learn and our tactics have evolved way beyond what they imagine.
Rest can't say.
@randomradio
What's your take on a hypothetical 1 vs 1 match of Rafale vs J-20? Kindly present your IAF vs PLAAF war scenario
What's your take on a hypothetical 1 vs 1 match of Rafale vs J-20? Kindly present your IAF vs PLAAF war scenario
Against peak J-20 until 2030:
1. Avoid a direct fight.
2. Use stealth to accomplish missions on the ground.
3. Go on the defensive when challenged via long range shots to force the J-20s to disengage, like what the PAF did in 2019.
4. Try and take out unwitting J-20s by surprise when opportunities present themselves, like Abhinandan.
AS drones will become necessary.
3. will get a boost with MKI MLU. Long range SAMs too, like XRSAM.
2. will be a major deciding factor for any air-related victory. Rafales will have to fly in and fly out without being detected.
1. Avoid a direct fight.
2. Use stealth to accomplish missions on the ground.
3. Go on the defensive when challenged via long range shots to force the J-20s to disengage, like what the PAF did in 2019.
4. Try and take out unwitting J-20s by surprise when opportunities present themselves, like Abhinandan.
AS drones will become necessary.
3. will get a boost with MKI MLU. Long range SAMs too, like XRSAM.
2. will be a major deciding factor for any air-related victory. Rafales will have to fly in and fly out without being detected.
Impossible. If J-20 attack with J-16 then both Rafale and MKI will need to intercept. So it will be direct fight.
Easier said than done against Chinese A2/AD. Even USAF is worried about that too.
Impossible. F-16s detected MKI because of AWACS and fired at D-Max. Whole point of VLO is to deny radar lock from long ranges. Rafale's AESA won't be able to provide a firing solution against J-20 from 80 kms. Even OSF is effective around 40 to 60kms, as is MICA-IR.
Reality is J-20 would pass the target info to J-16 flying back and they would fire multiple PL-15s at D-Max forcing both Rafale and MKI to take evasive action. And that's where J-20 would ambush/pounce our fighters and take PL-15 shots at NEZ.
Himalayas is our crown and protector. PLAAF will definitely be surprised.
SWIFT is leading to both stealth strike drone(Ghatak) and also to FUFA. So, we are already looking towards what you just wrote.
Next few years, we shall have all of this.
Lets hope Active Stealth works otherwise we're going to get effed.
In the light of these analyses by 2 rabid Optimists , how exactly is Rafales > J-20 as per one in previous versions & Rafales = J-20 as per the other , when both analyses here seem to be in agreement with the fact that come what may J-20 + J-16 > MKI + Rafale ?
Would someone be good enough to explain ?
Would someone be good enough to explain ?
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Against peak J-20 that's as good or better than the F-22, the Rafale will be insufficient. The Rafale needs far superior sensors and capabilities than what exists today and that's coming only with the F5 after 2030.
Rafale with only the MICA avoids direct fights even when up against the Typhoon, never mind the J-20. It has to use other tactics that rely on surprise.
If we can't detect the J-20s from a long enough distance that can force them back, then there's no point, they will take the skies. They can most definitely see us from long range. Even with ACT, the Rafale is unlikely to be as stealthy as the J-20. And the J-20 could also have ACT.
The Himalayas can allow the IAF to use the Rafale's capabilities to fly over enemy territory undetected. The enemy can do the same. So we can only hope their air defences are softer than ours. At this time, because of MRSAM, theirs is inferior to ours, but 2030 is a long time away.
SWIFT and FUFA are for the post-2030 world. The Chinese could already have drones of such capabilities. We know the Russians already do.
Our best hope is China fights the US first so we learn what they can do in the air before they turn their guns against India. If the Chinese defeat the US in the air, then we have no chance. If the Chinese struggle or lose badly, then we have some chance, although sadly we do not have the numbers necessary. Our next best hope is any Sino-India war stays in the border areas.
Perhaps we need Su-57MKI to take on J-20C.
Surprising a full-on VLO fighter is much different and difficult than surprising 4.5 gen fighters.
My point was more regarding air to air regime. Thanks to IACCS, we will see everything they do. And intercepting VLO would be possible too.
They occupy more heights. So we are at an advantageous situation here.
By 2030, our Air Defence capability would be one of most dense and feared all across the globe.
Unfortunately they do seem to have that even today.
Fighting a defensive war, where IAF plays a supporting hand to army, we can do real damage to Chinese forces.
War for Taiwan would be basically air war. Ours primarily will be ground based.
A Su-57MKI is also a post-2030 option. We have limited to no options today. If the Rafale fails, it's over. Otoh, the new version of the J-20 has been flying since December.
Post-2030, we will get LCA Mk2s and MRFAs, along with stealth drones, so we will be in a much better position by then. Perhaps even some Su-57s. But a war is much more likely to be fought without all these things. And the next war could be fought when all these new things are being replaced. We fought the last war with China when the Mig-21 didn't exist after all.
However, regardless of whether they take control of the skies or not, we have some options when it comes to supporting our ground troops due to the terrain. The LCA and M2000 can handle that to a certain extent even when focusing on air denial. The IA may have to fight under very difficult conditions.
Against Taiwan, it will be AirSea, and against India it will be AirLand. But Air is the crucial component to both.
I've always maintained that in order to get an optimist to be realistic in his approach you set an ultra optimist and then see the fun . The interplay can either lead to ultra fantastic scenarios or ultra realistic ones . Fortunately for us it's the latter . The transition of RST is amazing to behold & personally speaking depressing. I'm losing interest in coming out here with no characters to pick on .
On a serious note & on topic , We need the Su-57M now as in before 2030 in at least 2 squadrons in the same condition as the RuAF has it without monkey models or any MKI as there's no time for it .
I suspect the IAF is keeping quiet is because we'd be going in for the Su-57M by 2025 the moment the Izdeliye-30 on the Su-57M is certified operational. Otherwise , I can't think of any other plausible reason why they've not pursued the additional Rafales or the RFI for the MRFA tender .
I'm rather surprised neither RST nor Rajput Lion has noticed that the Russians haven't offered the Su-57M for the MRFA even now whereas the IAF chief has gone on record multiple times stating the tender was for 4.5 Gen & above FAs.
For my part , I reiterate that barring stealth which certainly isn't even the kind F-35 offers , the J-20 has little going for it . It's probably on the same bandwidth as the Rafales albeit with IWB & better passive stealth features than the Rafales which also means it could have active stealth a la Rafales.
However between now & 2030 I'm confident we will find a way not just to detect stealth which can be done to some extent even today , at least the kind of stealth the Chinese are displaying. Don't ask me for evidence , it's my gut instinct. Besides some of these detection features are already available on platforms worldwide albeit on land & naval platforms. How long does one think it'd take to get them onto air platforms along with tracking features ?
On a serious note & on topic , We need the Su-57M now as in before 2030 in at least 2 squadrons in the same condition as the RuAF has it without monkey models or any MKI as there's no time for it .
I suspect the IAF is keeping quiet is because we'd be going in for the Su-57M by 2025 the moment the Izdeliye-30 on the Su-57M is certified operational. Otherwise , I can't think of any other plausible reason why they've not pursued the additional Rafales or the RFI for the MRFA tender .
I'm rather surprised neither RST nor Rajput Lion has noticed that the Russians haven't offered the Su-57M for the MRFA even now whereas the IAF chief has gone on record multiple times stating the tender was for 4.5 Gen & above FAs.
For my part , I reiterate that barring stealth which certainly isn't even the kind F-35 offers , the J-20 has little going for it . It's probably on the same bandwidth as the Rafales albeit with IWB & better passive stealth features than the Rafales which also means it could have active stealth a la Rafales.
However between now & 2030 I'm confident we will find a way not just to detect stealth which can be done to some extent even today , at least the kind of stealth the Chinese are displaying. Don't ask me for evidence , it's my gut instinct. Besides some of these detection features are already available on platforms worldwide albeit on land & naval platforms. How long does one think it'd take to get them onto air platforms along with tracking features ?
J-20 has evolved much quicker than everybody estimated. So lemme try to explain:
Rafale F3R(I)>> J-20A(with Russian engines)
Rafale F3R(I) >>==!! J-20B(with Chinese WS-10 engines)
J-20C(with supercruising WS-15 engines)>> Rafale F3R(I).
Frankly for a nation which's just started producing turbofans to replace Russian ones on their fleet , to have suddenly developed one that can possess super cruise features is a bit hard to digest but I sincerely hope IAF considers the J-20 to have super cruise whenever they evaluate it so that they can come up with a better than optimum solution for it .
Actually Su-57M prototype is also flying from last year. IAF has realized the gravest threat from J-20C. They know that we need at least 40 Su-57M to take on 100s of J-20C in our border.
Very soon, we may hear an announcement on this front which will shock many people. Just wait and watch.
Even now there is nothing to fear. As long as we're fighting a defensive area denial war like Ukraine Air Force is doing against RuAF.
With terrain, with our integrated network, with our cutting-edge SAMs, with the ability of IAF. Chinese won't find it that easy against India, trust me.
It is. But real war is always won on the ground, which the Chinese are not capable against the Indian Army; now or tomorrow, period.