Indian Air Force : Updates & Discussions

[Ashwin]

This is such a stupid statement.
If kaveri is more advanced then why aren't we producing & inducting it??
It's because it doesn't work for the standards required and F404 does.
These kind of statements is really takes a toll on your credibility.
Don't be delusional or India strong kind of guy.

He didn't say anything wrong. Kaveri was designed with more advanced specifications.

Its not in production because its failed to reach such a high requirement.

There are many military programs that are far more advanced but never reached production because of various reasons.

 

[LX1111]

He didn't say anything wrong. Kaveri was designed with more advanced specifications.

Its not in production because its failed to reach such a high requirement.

There are many military programs that are far more advanced but never reached production because of various reasons.

You are the serious mistake, when comparing engine performance, usually use the thrust-weight ratio, the design index of this engine in India is 6.9, and the F404 is above 8.The gap is already obvious,
I remember Snecma suggesting that the core of the Indian engine was poorly designed, suggesting use core of the M88-2

 

[Ashwin]

You are the serious mistake, when comparing engine performance, usually use the thrust-weight ratio, the design index of this engine in India is 6.9, and the F404 is above 8.The gap is already obvious,
I remember Snecma suggesting that the core of the Indian engine was poorly designed, suggesting use core of the M88-2

You are comparing achieved thrust-weight and designed thrust-weight. Also, its flat-rated and variable cycle compared to the F404-GE-400.

That Snecma suggestion was made more than a decade ago. Those issues are fixed long back now we are using the core for UCAV.

 

[LX1111]

Kaveri delivers 73 KN thrust compared to its original 81 KN objective. So an 85 KN F404 was chosen for the now overweight LCA.

Now they've removed the afterburner section and decided to use Kaveri for our stealth UCAV, which is obviously a far more advanced program than LCA. The dry part of the engine was a success.

Anyway, Kaveri is more advanced because it's a variable cycle engine. Plus it's flat rated, so at higher altitudes, while the F404 loses thrust, like any other engine, the Kaveri maintains high thrust. At 81 KN, it delivers more thrust than 85 KN F404 due to its higher ambient temperature rating.

Kaveri's main problem is it used materials and manufacturing processes a generation behind tthe F404. So that means the design of the engine was superior to the F404.

Anyway, had LCA maintained its original empty weight of 5.5T, we would have continued with Kaveri. LCA's weight increase by 1T meant we needed an extra ton of thrust, so the enhanced India-specific F404.

GTRE has restarted work on Kaveri to get the desired 81KN thrust, as per the original program objective. Possibly for FUFA. But I won't be surprised if F404 is replaced during MLU.

If you're just looking at engine thrust, I'd recommend the R-29, it gets up to 112KN

 

[randomradio]

You are the serious mistake, when comparing engine performance, usually use the thrust-weight ratio, the design index of this engine in India is 6.9, and the F404 is above 8.The gap is already obvious,

You are making three mistakes. One, Kaveri's thrust is much higher than what's been advertised when you do an actual comparison within the same ambient temperature versus F404. The temperature Kaveri's 81 KN has been arrived at is much higher than F404's 85 KN. Higher the ambient temperature, lower the thrust.

Second, Kaveri's current weight is for prototypes, not what the serial model will actually weigh.

Third, Kaveri achieved these figures with titanium blades 20 years ago versus F404's single crystal blades. Now Kaveri has SCB and is much lighter. It will see a further evolution over the next few years.

I remember Snecma suggesting that the core of the Indian engine was poorly designed, suggesting use core of the M88-2

Snecma suggested using their next gen core for a 90-100 KN engine for LCA Mk2. Today, SAFRAN is involved in improving the current Kabini core for a stealth drone. There are no serious issue with the core itself, the problem 15 years ago was in the afterburner section, so they suggested using the M88's afterburner combined with the Indian core.

 

[Hydra]

So the question is, what is an F404 engine? A very advanced engine? Oh no, it's just an ordinary third generation turbofan engine with similar performance to the rd 33. Since India can produce the al 31 engine from scratch and have introduced many Western engines before, why can't they produce an engine similar to the f404?

Remember you once said that India has all the technology to produce Su-30 and AL31 from scratch, isn't that 100% guaranteed?

In which univere, which species will tell f404 is just another rd33?

 

[mamiam23]

In which univere, which species will tell f404 is just another rd33?

Bud doesn't even know basics of difference between F404 and RD33 or the Metallurgy between Western and Russian Engines.

 

[LX1111]

In which univere, which species will tell f404 is just another rd33?

Bud doesn't even know basics of difference between F404 and RD33 or the Metallurgy between Western and Russian Engines

Do you think the aL31 and f110 engines are of the same generation? If you admit that, then you also have to admit that the rd 33 and the f404 are the same generation of engines，
Your knowledge of the RD33 engine is probably only the MiG 29 have black smokeat the air show, which is just an oil-rich combustion of the engine to provide thrust more than 3% of the rated thrust. I have read some professional reviews of the RD33 engine, and it is generally considered to be a very high level of design, even more than the later AL31, in the 1970s, There is no computer simulation, even no CNC machine tool era, processing a thrust-to-weight ratio of more than 8 engines, and its high-altitude high-speed performance is better than f404.

Many Indians have the subjective stereotype that American engines are far better than Russian engines, better than Chinese engines, but is this really the case? In the 1970s and 1980s of the Cold War, the engine gap between the United States and the Soviet Union was not as large as many people thought. The real gap was opened after the end of the Cold War, the western F119,F135, EJ200 these three fourth-generation turbofan engines in the true sense were put into use, and the gap between the East and the West was really widened.

 

[randomradio]

Do you think the aL31 and f110 engines are of the same generation? If you admit that, then you also have to admit that the rd 33 and the f404 are the same generation of engines，
Your knowledge of the RD33 engine is probably only the MiG 29 have black smokeat the air show, which is just an oil-rich combustion of the engine to provide thrust more than 3% of the rated thrust. I have read some professional reviews of the RD33 engine, and it is generally considered to be a very high level of design, even more than the later AL31, in the 1970s, There is no computer simulation, even no CNC machine tool era, processing a thrust-to-weight ratio of more than 8 engines, and its high-altitude high-speed performance is better than f404.
View attachment 37202

Many Indians have the subjective stereotype that American engines are far better than Russian engines, better than Chinese engines, but is this really the case? In the 1970s and 1980s of the Cold War, the engine gap between the United States and the Soviet Union was not as large as many people thought. The real gap was opened after the end of the Cold War, the western F119,F135, EJ200 these three fourth-generation turbofan engines in the true sense were put into use, and the gap between the East and the West was really widened.View attachment 37201

Even the Russians today say the engine gap with the West during the Cold War used to be large until the creation of AL-41F. It's not a stereotype if even the Russians say it's true.

AL-31FP needs an overhaul every 1000 hours, it's actually less than 1000 hours as per IAF, the same as the new RD-33.

Look at the F414 EDE's numbers yourself.

GE Plans Thrust Increase, Other Improvements For F414 Engine; Number Of Potential Applications Growing | GE Aerospace News

FARNBOROUGH, England - GE's F414 engine, the powerplant for the U.S. Navy's F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, is currently rated at 22,000 pounds (98 kN) thrust. However, GE Aircraft Engines (GEAE) has established a growth roadmap that increases thrust by as much as 25 percent. In addition, GEAE is...

www.geaerospace.com

The new compressor improves airflow and efficiency, and time between overhauls is increased from 4000 hours to 6000 hours. The 3-D aero turbine is more efficient, with higher temperature capability, and time between overhauls is increased from 2000 hours to 6000 hours.

Both compressor and turbine at 6000 hours. LCA Mk2, you can retire the aircraft without the engine needing even a single overhaul.

 

[Speedster1]

Anyway, had LCA maintained its original empty weight of 5.5T, we would have continued with Kaveri. LCA's weight increase by 1T meant we needed an extra ton of thrust, so the enhanced India-specific F404.

I digress but weren't ADA/HAL working on removing some 400kg of ballast/telemetry gear from Mk1 LCAs? The Mk1A apparently also has more composites (and landing gear tweaks?). That should shave off some of the weight I'm hoping.

 

[randomradio]

I digress but weren't ADA/HAL working on removing some 400kg of ballast/telemetry gear from Mk1 LCAs? The Mk1A apparently also has more composites (and landing gear tweaks?). That should shave off some of the weight I'm hoping.

It's unclear if weight reduction measures were actually carried out in full. The radar and EW suite are heavier. They may not have re-engineered the landing carriage, and it's possible the wing was strengthened for higher payloads, like Brahmos MA.

 

[Hydra]

Do you think the aL31 and f110 engines are of the same generation? If you admit that, then you also have to admit that the rd 33 and the f404 are the same generation of engines，
Your knowledge of the RD33 engine is probably only the MiG 29 have black smokeat the air show, which is just an oil-rich combustion of the engine to provide thrust more than 3% of the rated thrust. I have read some professional reviews of the RD33 engine, and it is generally considered to be a very high level of design, even more than the later AL31, in the 1970s, There is no computer simulation, even no CNC machine tool era, processing a thrust-to-weight ratio of more than 8 engines, and its high-altitude high-speed performance is better than f404.
View attachment 37202

Many Indians have the subjective stereotype that American engines are far better than Russian engines, better than Chinese engines, but is this really the case? In the 1970s and 1980s of the Cold War, the engine gap between the United States and the Soviet Union was not as large as many people thought. The real gap was opened after the end of the Cold War, the western F119,F135, EJ200 these three fourth-generation turbofan engines in the true sense were put into use, and the gap between the East and the West was really widened.View attachment 37201

Andrew Garfield & I are of same generation (almost), but that doesn't means we both are equal.

 

[Sathya]

I digress but weren't ADA/HAL working on removing some 400kg of ballast/telemetry gear from Mk1 LCAs? The Mk1A apparently also has more composites (and landing gear tweaks?). That should shave off some of the weight I'm hoping.

Ballast are in few KGs. Nothing more.
I got replied by indranil roy

https://twitter.com/x/status/1773673968903364758

 

[Speedster1]

Ballast are in few KGs. Nothing more.
I got replied by indranil roy

https://twitter.com/x/status/1773673968903364758

I thought ADA/HAL would get close to the original goal for empty weight (5.5t) given all the work they were putting into optimizing MK1A (LRU optimization, higher composite percentage) But it looks like not much can be done.