Indian Aircraft Crash Notification
- Thread starter R!cK
- Start date
Secondhand M2000s.
Any other option is long term, and the closest to fruition is the LCA Mk1A.
The Mig-21 is the kind of aircraft you gotta keep flying or you lose touch.
The only option is secondhand M2000. Anything else will take a long time to train the manpower. Plus PAF uses the F-16, so they know more about it than we do.
Mirage 2000 , is set to retire world over.
They stopped production, didn't make it contemporary with aesa, won't allow source codes to make changes by ourselves.
If we upgrade, it ll also take time & money.
Making it less attractive than Lca mk1A.
If only we can increase orders , add another production line and hasten the induction.
F16 is still kicking but we aren't good fit for it.
F16 logistical chain is still intact unlike M2000. That’s why M2000 maintenance and upgrade is so damn expensive.
PAF using the same jet is not that big issue as -
1. We can hire Ex-USAF and Israel AF pilots as instructors for training
2. Can transfer some of our fighter pilot from LCA and M2000 fleet to F16 for quick catch up.
3. Can buy superior weapon and sensor package from US and/or Israel to get the necessary edge in BVR fights.
4. Lastly a fight is like a match or a race where even if both opponents use same Car or Bat and Ball, still match is decided based on who has superior skill and other additional advantages. We can look into that like EW system etc.
Last edited:
Honestly at this point, we should better loose touch with Mig 21 riding than further killing our pilots.
IAF is already short of Pilots: Fighter jets ratio close to critical levels. Any decrease and we risk our jets getting blown of on the ground in first strike.
And BTW if those retiring CAS who spent most of his career sitting behind the desk can fly Mig 21 at the ceremonies, I doubt these guys will face any problems doing that in war.
I think we are past that time window,
During Parikrama time, we were discussing late M parrikar wanted to get F16 , to have 70 % capabilities of rafale at 50 ℅ cost.
But customization required by IAF and other factors we didn't get economic deal.
To set up infra, training, maintenance, compatible ammunition etc entire thing is new because we don't have any American fighters before, make it more time consuming and difficult.
Before that our MWF would be inducted .
The point is it's the only jet available that can replace the Mig-21 in the shortest time possible.
Our M2000s are the old ones from the 80s, ie 40 years old. Extending the service life is an expensive affair. The ones in Taiwan and M2000 require minimal airframe extension, ie 20 years old.
It takes years to get up to speed on a new aircraft. By the time it's done on the F-16, the LCA will be here. We are not talking about a 5-year window, we are talking about Mig-21 replacement in just a year or two, a timeframe met only by the M2000.
If it was done back in 2017, as the IAF had hoped would happen, then it was possible. But in 2018, they decided to go for the LCA Mk2 instead, which is why TE MII became the main option again in the form of MRFA. It's also why the import lobby had created that hit piece against LCA. But the IAF wasn't interested in the F-16, and the jet they wanted, Gripen E, was still WIP. Hence LCA Mk2. Rather LCA Mk1A should have begun replacing the Mig-21 in 2022, but of course it was delayed.
I’m not talking about buying new F16 that will obviously take a lot of time and money.
I’m suggesting to look into second hand F16 (older blocks that have BVR capability) and are currently in USAF reserve ( or other European customers) and are available right now with minor upgrade/refit/maintenance job. Nothing antique but good enough to perform CAP duties and fire AIM-120 D.
Problem is M2000 is not available in large number owing to its low user base. And those operating it like Taiwan or UAE etc still need as many fighter jets as possible to defend themselves. They have invited so much money into it that it will be too costly to buy them. While F16 like Mig 21 is operated by almost half of the globe, US being the largest. What’s more favourable to a potential buyer of a Second Hand F16 is that all those countries that operate F16 are migrating to F35 , thus retiring huge number of F16 with sufficient amount of Airframe life still left in them and most of these jets are operated by western nations, almost all of them have got upgrades over time and are ready to do the job without much work.
There is no harm in operating LCA mk1/1A/mk2 side by side with F16 till say 2040-50. It will give us sufficient time and save a lot of money to invest on AMCA, TEDBF and other necessary projects without need to waste huge money on importing another fourth gen jet.
I think Training issue can be manageable easily like we did with Rafale.
I think IAF wanted full capabilities and some more customized capabilities..
It would have been better if we got old stock s with SABR aesa in quick transfer.
But what happened was Talk of making it faster with tata with tranfer of production line.
IAF procurement process is dumb.
A lot of F16 are available for sale right now thanks to F35. And we desperately in need of a fighter suitable to do CAP and interception duties.
And what’s even better is that unlike say Pak, Indonesia,Bangladesh etc who are also looking for similar type of jet, we have good relations with the US and have sufficient money to do bulk purchase.
It’ll be good for both IAF and LM (who will get to upgrade and service these otherwise retired jets)
Honestly speaking, to me it makes much more sense to go for USAF backed and easily (and cheaply) available F16 in large number than wandering in search for expensive and scarce M2000 units from countries like UAE, Taiwan etc who are not too eager to let go their jets and in all possibility, will not sell them cheap. All that when the French OEM has already stopped providing its services for these M2000. It’ll be another Jaguar saga.
Last edited:
Things may have turned into uav..
With Usa set to replace their UAV & UCAV with newer ones, we are buying them .
I am not sure of details @randomradio
3 billion $ for 30 aircraft s include s what and all... Bases accommodation,. Training & weapons?
Will future deal be cheaper?
US UAVs are too costly for us. We have to have our own UAV solutions. I’m not in favour of fighting war with anything that is too costly and provide little benefits over its alternatives.
There is no need for any more than just 1 new squadron of M2000. Basically 1 M2000 squadron is way more capable than 3-4 squadrons of Mig-21. You can split it and make it cover two sectors with just 8 jets each, like all of Kashmir. Then, one of our three remaining squadrons can be moved to Ambala to completely cover the north. And we will have at least 1 LCA squadron to cover the southwest. But it obviously doesn't look like it's gonna happen, we are gonna sit with a shortfall until 2028.
It's freakishly expensive to operate a whole new type. Just buying infrastructure, creating a supply line etc will go into billions. Money that can actually buy other jets instead. Stuff like this is meant for emergency purchases for advanced capabilities, like Australia did with the SH or India did with Rafale. It doesn't make sense to do the same for an outdated jet.
Don’t we have Singaporean F16 based on Kalikunda AFB throughout the year ?
I believe if they do, there must be a support, maintenance and supply line for those F16s at that airbase. Besides F16 are not that maintenance intensive jets. So maintaining few squadrons will not be an issue, provided IF Kalikunda AFB already has F16 support set up.
If we want second hand aircraft to fill in the deficit faster , why not we negotiate for older version of Rafale like Greece.
The unit cost is high 'cause these are special mission drones.
I don't think it's gonna get much cheaper.
They will just bring their own from Singapore.
It's not SE.
Our pilots are not Bollywood hero's to fight rifle men with knife or dodging bullet under the cover of bicycle.
I would like to imagine Mig21 with electronics from f22 & growler, skin of B2 ,weapon capacity of TU160 & g performance of Rafale as flying cost as cheep as glider.
Mig 29 is an interceptor in its original fit. The last line of defence for Soviet era Moscow. Yeas we should have induct it numbers in past, instead we went for Tejas designing program.So you mean to say that ONLY IAF can scramble its MiG 21s in minimum time and US , Russia , France are fools that they dont use MIG21
Does China have a MiG 21 variant
By the way when there wont be MIG 21 bisons left after say 7 years
What will we do for this QR "Stunt "
And Tejas MK.1A has the same engine as MK 1
It is Not supposed to be a QR fighter
We need MIG 29 for CAPs and for phasing out MIG 21s
The Upgraded MIG 29 is very good fighter
The BAAZigars: All you need to know about the MiG-29 UPG
“The most advanced is the MiG-29UPG, implemented in India in collaboration with local industry” These were the words of Sergei Korotkov, the director-general of MiG. It was his referenc…airpowerasia.com