Indian Army Air Defence Corps : Updates & Discussions

[Milspec]

Very bad analogy. A gun is good up to 4Km. A laser will probably give you a little more. But XRSAM etc are needed for long range engagement.

So, with current technology, a laser can replace a gun, not a missile.

Just imagine a Biho or Pantsir with missiles and a laser turret.



That's why I put our date as 2025-35, and the US before that.



No, it won't be difficult to develop 20 to 40mm cannons. But our stuff's gonna suck compared to imports, which is my point. That's also the reason why DRDO has not pursued it. It's not a good idea to develop everything with our level of funding when imports are much cheaper and better. There's a lot of stuff DRDO has not bothered with, like MANPADS that will go on mobile AD.

You can always develop your own mobile AD system with an imported gun and missile anyway, which is not really a very efficient way to go about it when the imports are a whole lot better. You will notice that the US will also be importing their mobile AD.

Most of the stuff you named will be inducted over the next 20 years will need imported cannons anyway.

Today India uses in 30 mm primarily 2A42, for all of the BMP variants, That's roughly 2000 units which are due to be replaced ( so potentially 2000 units of 30mm autocannon there) OFB makes this gun and badges names like medak and CRN91 which finds use on board IN/CG ships.
Su30's and Mig29's use the GSH 30 -1(including the ), Mil Mi24 uses GSH-30-2; All of Eurojets in IAF are the Aden family , Aden30/Defa 550/Giat 30; Then there is the 30mm auto for AH64 - M230; and finally every IN CIWS is around the AK630 using the GSH-6-30, And then we have the 20mm family that includes thee GSH-1-23, GSH-2-23, Nexter 20, and the Oerlikon 20mm systems on multiple aerial platforms and ships.

Roughly a force that can utilize close to anywhere between 3000 to 4000 high caliber gun systems. If I was a gun maker I would be looking at monopolizing every platform fielded in India with an Indian 20mm and 30mm variant. Heck i would even looking at developing 40mm and 76 mm system in-house to be fielded in every Naval ship.

This is a big market, with very few players out there where a low-cost main gun and low-cost CIWS solution would help driving India becoming a real player in naval shipbuilding where we can provide end to end solution to export cutomers. In my book, such systems which are achievable and realistic are a slam dunk.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Very bad analogy. A gun is good up to 4Km. A laser will probably give you a little more. But XRSAM etc are needed for long range engagement.

So, with current technology, a laser can replace a gun, not a missile.

Just imagine a Biho or Pantsir with missiles and a laser turret.



That's why I put our date as 2025-35, and the US before that.



No, it won't be difficult to develop 20 to 40mm cannons. But our stuff's gonna suck compared to imports, which is my point. That's also the reason why DRDO has not pursued it. It's not a good idea to develop everything with our level of funding when imports are much cheaper and better. There's a lot of stuff DRDO has not bothered with, like MANPADS that will go on mobile AD.

You can always develop your own mobile AD system with an imported gun and missile anyway, which is not really a very efficient way to go about it when the imports are a whole lot better. You will notice that the US will also be importing their mobile AD.

Most of the stuff you named will be inducted over the next 20 years will need imported cannons anyway.

@Milspec . I think you ought to be banned. You're anti youth and more importantly you're anti optimism. Shame on you!!

 

[Gautam]

No, it won't be difficult to develop 20 to 40mm cannons. But our stuff's gonna suck compared to imports, which is my point. That's also the reason why DRDO has not pursued it. It's not a good idea to develop everything with our level of funding when imports are much cheaper and better. There's a lot of stuff DRDO has not bothered with, like MANPADS that will go on mobile AD.

You can always develop your own mobile AD system with an imported gun and missile anyway, which is not really a very efficient way to go about it when the imports are a whole lot better. You will notice that the US will also be importing their mobile AD.

Most of the stuff you named will be inducted over the next 20 years will need imported cannons anyway.

I agree with some of this, but why not follow the Korean model here. Take a proven design and improve on it, rather than ground up development. The guns that OFB license manufactures include the Russian Shipunov 2A42 gun and the GSh 630. Both highly reliable guns, and we have been making/using them for decades. Surely we know enough by now to understand the design of the guns. Why not use these designs to make guns of different calibers ?
And no I don't believe DRDO isn't making an attempt because "our stuff won't be good enough". That would have stopped them from going on about a lot of projects. "Not good enough" didn't stop them then and it won't stop them now. The only reason they aren't persuading it is because no one has explicitly stated this is a requirement and they are quite happy to run themselves in inertia as they always have.

Given HVF can manufacture complex 105mm, 120 mm barrels, it should not be a uphill battle to develop 20mm and 30mm systems. It;s much more reasonable and achievable product, with massive volume needs (CIWS, Ack ack, Mobile SAM, HMG's, Antimaterial, Fixed Wing and Rotary platforms, Armored vehicles, foward posts etc. ) that functional Laser weapons.

Even less of an uphill battle when you consider that all that's needed to be done to make 20mm and 40mm(30mm already exists) auto-cannon/Gatling gun is a change of caliber. The design, for all I care can stay the same as those Russian guns we've been licence producing. This seems like another Bofors/Dhanush case to me, where we have all the designs/blueprints needed and choose not to do anything with it.

 

[randomradio]

Today India uses in 30 mm primarily 2A42, for all of the BMP variants, That's roughly 2000 units which are due to be replaced ( so potentially 2000 units of 30mm autocannon there) OFB makes this gun and badges names like medak and CRN91 which finds use on board IN/CG ships.
Su30's and Mig29's use the GSH 30 -1(including the ), Mil Mi24 uses GSH-30-2; All of Eurojets in IAF are the Aden family , Aden30/Defa 550/Giat 30; Then there is the 30mm auto for AH64 - M230; and finally every IN CIWS is around the AK630 using the GSH-6-30, And then we have the 20mm family that includes thee GSH-1-23, GSH-2-23, Nexter 20, and the Oerlikon 20mm systems on multiple aerial platforms and ships.

Roughly a force that can utilize close to anywhere between 3000 to 4000 high caliber gun systems. If I was a gun maker I would be looking at monopolizing every platform fielded in India with an Indian 20mm and 30mm variant. Heck i would even looking at developing 40mm and 76 mm system in-house to be fielded in every Naval ship.

This is a big market, with very few players out there where a low-cost main gun and low-cost CIWS solution would help driving India becoming a real player in naval shipbuilding where we can provide end to end solution to export cutomers. In my book, such systems which are achievable and realistic are a slam dunk.

For all the systems you named above, the only option is import, since the requirement has to be fulfilled long before an indigenous solution can be developed. Developing a cannon isn't a few years's affair, it's a proper long duration program and then many, many years of field testing before it can be inducted in multiple platforms. ADEN, DEFA etc have reached where they are today because they were developed continuously since the 40s. If we start now, we will get a qualitatively satisfactory gun of this class only in 2040, probably never. Sure, everything can be license produced if the individual orders are big enough, but that's about it.

I don't see India ever developing and fielding smaller calibre cannons ever. Anyway, most of this stuff will be outdated in just 10 or 15 years. The AK-630 cannot even stop Brahmos, let alone a hypersonic missile. These cannons do less than mach 3, which is already too slow. And firing cost will be too high compared to railguns and lasers. And of course, the range is limited. While cannons are restricted to only a few Kms to tens of Kms depending on calibre, railguns and lasers will eventually end up doing hundreds of Kms.

For FICV and FRCV, the options are either next gen lasers and railguns or cannon imports, whatever makes it in the requirements list. And then 100% of our cannon-based air defence needs for the next 30 years will be done over the next few years via imports, so no chance of an indigenous system here. The navy must have already decided on the weapons they need for the next 15 years by now. As for the air force, decision for LCA, MWF and AMCA has already been taken. The same for Rudra and LCH. So there's nothing here for an indigenous cannon until after the 2030s at the minimum.

As for bigger cannons of above 100mm class, we do have some programs for it, particularly for tanks and howitzers, but that's about it. Ships have moved on to imported 127mm cannons, which will be superseded by railguns in the future. Post FRCV, we will only see railguns for ships, tanks and artillery, with lasers for CIWS. Anything else will be obsolete.

 

[randomradio]

@Milspec . I think you ought to be banned. You're anti youth and more importantly you're anti optimism. Shame on you!!

The opposite. He's the one being optimistic, not me.

 

[randomradio]

I agree with some of this, but why not follow the Korean model here. Take a proven design and improve on it, rather than ground up development. The guns that OFB license manufactures include the Russian Shipunov 2A42 gun and the GSh 630. Both highly reliable guns, and we have been making/using them for decades. Surely we know enough by now to understand the design of the guns. Why not use these designs to make guns of different calibers ?
And no I don't believe DRDO isn't making an attempt because "our stuff won't be good enough". That would have stopped them from going on about a lot of projects. "Not good enough" didn't stop them then and it won't stop them now. The only reason they aren't persuading it is because no one has explicitly stated this is a requirement and they are quite happy to run themselves in inertia as they always have.

Bro, let them make a satisfactory assault rifle first. Not all DRDO labs are successful.

 

[Gautam]

Bro, let them make a satisfactory assault rifle first. Not all DRDO labs are successful.

Exactly my point. They suck at making rifles, they know that too. But that doesn't stop them from trying. Why would the same organisation back away from another gun project because they won't be good enough ?
The only reason they aren't trying is because or lack of user interest.

 

[randomradio]

Exactly my point. They suck at making rifles, they know that too. But that doesn't stop them from trying. Why would the same organisation back away from another gun project because they won't be good enough ?
The only reason they aren't trying is because or lack of user interest.

It's because these systems will become outdated by the time they are developed and will not have any interest from anybody after a point.

 

[Gautam]

It's because these systems will become outdated by the time they are developed and will not have any interest from anybody after a point.

Come on now, everything will become outdated at some point. Outdated doesn't always mean irrelevant. Case in point, our Mig-21 Bison are outdated aren't they ? and yet here we are.
DRDO firearms(rifles, pistols etc) are outdated before they are even made and yet they continue making them. You can make a similar case with small arms as you are making with CIWS. All guns are going to be replaced by Star Wars inspired laser blasters, so let's just build those and not rifles and stuff.
We can't build proper guns and not making CIWS is considered foresight ? If you can't do something try again and again. Keep at it until you succeed. Not even trying isn't future planning. If we can't build firearms guns, where do you get the confidence that a laser CIWS is actually something we can make ? And do you suggest that until lasers come about we should just continue using the AK-630 ?

 

[GuardianRED]

Come on now, everything will become outdated at some point. Outdated doesn't always mean irrelevant. Case in point, our Mig-21 Bison are outdated aren't they ? and yet here we are.
DRDO firearms(rifles, pistols etc) are outdated before they are even made and yet they continue making them. You can make a similar case with small arms as you are making with CIWS. All guns are going to be replaced by Star Wars inspired laser blasters, so let's just build those and not rifles and stuff.
We can't build proper guns and not making CIWS is considered foresight ? If you can't do something try again and again. Keep at it until you succeed. Not even trying isn't future planning. If we can't build firearms guns, where do you get the confidence that a laser CIWS is actually something we can make ? And do you suggest that until lasers come about we should just continue using the AK-630 ?

I do remember reading PKS suggestion that the AK630 and necessary systems (since all is made in india) can be used for CRAM (Counter Rocket Artillery Mortar) for static installation.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

I do remember reading PKS suggestion that the AK630 and necessary systems (since all is made in india) can be used for CRAM (Counter Rocket Artillery Mortar) for static installation.

We have already had given a attempt on AK630 under a 2 year funding program. Nothing satisfying came out and funding stopped.

It was for a IAF project i think.

 

[LoneWolfSandeep]

Some talk of lasers & railgun earlier, some believe it as fictitious & not likely to mature soon. My 2 bits

Did you know China has already deployed a magnetic rail gun, high in the mountains in Tibet pointing towards India, as India holds air superiority in being able to field conventional air attacks, simply by having low altitude airports near border.

Coming to Laser, ofcource India is developing its own. USA has already tested a 5kW laser mounted on Stryker Armored vehicles to take down Drones & Mortars etc & is working on 50&100kW. USA hopes to have a fielded 50kW on Stryker, or trucks by 2023

Rheinmettal has been most impressive in this field, in 2012 & 2013 live in front of international experts using a 10kW & 30kW laser defense it shot drones, mortars & cruise missile (dummies).

There is a misconception that Lasers can only fire once & not multiple times. Its true & not true. The key is power, if laser is low kw, it will take longer to shoot object & be ready for next shoot after longer duration, recharge, hence its said as single fire, but it changes to repeat quick burst fire, if it can be scaled to 50kW & beyond. As it takes only a split sec to take down a object, meaning it has enough power to keep pointing at multiple objects & keep firing, like in burst.

Army Boosts Investment In Lasers
"But McIntire’s Cross Functional Team (CFT) sees 50kW as the crucial threshold to make a laser useful in actual combat. Why? Doubling a laser’s power level halves the time it takes to burn out a given target at a given range, and McIntire wants the system to kill low-end drones in “less than a second” so it can wipe out incoming swarms before they get through. Higher power can also give longer range or take on harder targets.
In parallel to the 50 kW Stryker laser, the Army is developing a 100kW laser mounted on a larger but less mobile vehicle, the Oshkosh FMTV truck. "

Also in 2013 Rheinmetall demonstrated it can take down a saturated Cruise missile attack consisting of 3 incoming cruise at interval of 20 sec with 30kW laser defense. This time ofcouse decreases & range increases, if kW can be increased

Rheinmetall recently successfully tested a 100kW laser in Dec2018
German weapons maker claims successful test of new laser weapon station – Defence Blog

I had read a long time ago, that Chinese had stolen German & USA laser tech & improved on both there good points to develop its own High Power Laser program, which now is ultra sophisticated.

My Take, India should pursue its own Laser program, at same time tie up with another Industry leader like Rheinmetall. We can learn a lot from there experience & tech. Maybe start a Joint Venture for development in parallel for both ground & Naval defense. Especially since they have a working 100kW functional laser defense system, which can be easily mounted on trucks/naval vessels for active deployment.

 

[randomradio]

Come on now, everything will become outdated at some point. Outdated doesn't always mean irrelevant. Case in point, our Mig-21 Bison are outdated aren't they ? and yet here we are.

Getting stuck with something beyond its time is very different from deliberately making something that will become outdated soon.

DRDO firearms(rifles, pistols etc) are outdated before they are even made and yet they continue making them. You can make a similar case with small arms as you are making with CIWS. All guns are going to be replaced by Star Wars inspired laser blasters, so let's just build those and not rifles and stuff.
We can't build proper guns and not making CIWS is considered foresight ? If you can't do something try again and again. Keep at it until you succeed. Not even trying isn't future planning.

You've gone off a cliff here. Even outdated rifles from WW2 will still kill you today. But look at the example I gave, if the AK-630 can't kill Brahmos, then it can't kill hypersonic weapons. So what's the point making an indigenous AK-630? It's pointless.

Everything's about utility. If you make something, you have to be sure that it will work well for at least 20 years at the minimum, if not 40 years. Most of these cannons are going to be useless for their primary purpose, particularly in air defence. For example, a cannon is good up to 2 or 3 or 4Km depending on the type, so aircraft are now going to shoot you down from 5Km away instead, it's that simple. That's why they have now added missile capability to air defence cannons. Next up, we need to now replace the cannons with something that can shoot down the aircraft at distances of 10-20Km, later 50Km, later 100Km and so on, which is where lasers will come in.

Here's something to think about.
The Army Thinks Its Next Rifle Could Be Revolutionary

If this comes in, then most BPJs around the world are going to be useless. So we will need to upgrade BPJs next.

We will soon be approaching a time when killing a soldier is going to become practically impossible over the next 10-15 years with current gen small arms. If an AK-47 can't kill a soldier, then you are going to have to upgrade your rifle. But you will need better BPJs to counter this new type of rifle. And the cycle goes on.

If we can't build firearms guns, where do you get the confidence that a laser CIWS is actually something we can make ?

There is no direct relation between the two. It's not the same people making it. Laser is purely within the electronics domain while artillery is in mechanical.

DRDO is very, very capable in electronics, not as good in gun-making, different people running the show. Since the starting time is the same, you can actually say that we will get a laser CIWS long, long before we get an indigenous but obsolete AK-630.

And do you suggest that until lasers come about we should just continue using the AK-630 ?

Unfortunately we have no choice. But the AK-630 is still useful against subsonic targets like Harpoon and aircraft that come too close. It's useful against secondary targets like speedboats, small ships et al.

 

[randomradio]

Some talk of lasers & railgun earlier, some believe it as fictitious & not likely to mature soon. My 2 bits

Did you know China has already deployed a magnetic rail gun, high in the mountains in Tibet pointing towards India, as India holds air superiority in being able to field conventional air attacks, simply by having low altitude airports near border.

Coming to Laser, ofcource India is developing its own. USA has already tested a 5kW laser mounted on Stryker Armored vehicles to take down Drones & Mortars etc & is working on 50&100kW. USA hopes to have a fielded 50kW on Stryker, or trucks by 2023

Rheinmettal has been most impressive in this field, in 2012 & 2013 live in front of international experts using a 10kW & 30kW laser defense it shot drones, mortars & cruise missile (dummies).

There is a misconception that Lasers can only fire once & not multiple times. Its true & not true. The key is power, if laser is low kw, it will take longer to shoot object & be ready for next shoot after longer duration, recharge, hence its said as single fire, but it changes to repeat quick burst fire, if it can be scaled to 50kW & beyond. As it takes only a split sec to take down a object, meaning it has enough power to keep pointing at multiple objects & keep firing, like in burst.

Army Boosts Investment In Lasers
"But McIntire’s Cross Functional Team (CFT) sees 50kW as the crucial threshold to make a laser useful in actual combat. Why? Doubling a laser’s power level halves the time it takes to burn out a given target at a given range, and McIntire wants the system to kill low-end drones in “less than a second” so it can wipe out incoming swarms before they get through. Higher power can also give longer range or take on harder targets.
In parallel to the 50 kW Stryker laser, the Army is developing a 100kW laser mounted on a larger but less mobile vehicle, the Oshkosh FMTV truck. "

Also in 2013 Rheinmetall demonstrated it can take down a saturated Cruise missile attack consisting of 3 incoming cruise at interval of 20 sec with 30kW laser defense. This time ofcouse decreases & range increases, if kW can be increased

Rheinmetall recently successfully tested a 100kW laser in Dec2018
German weapons maker claims successful test of new laser weapon station – Defence Blog

I had read a long time ago, that Chinese had stolen German & USA laser tech & improved on both there good points to develop its own High Power Laser program, which now is ultra sophisticated.

My Take, India should pursue its own Laser program, at same time tie up with another Industry leader like Rheinmetall. We can learn a lot from there experience & tech. Maybe start a Joint Venture for development in parallel for both ground & Naval defense. Especially since they have a working 100kW functional laser defense system, which can be easily mounted on trucks/naval vessels for active deployment.

We have functional 20 and 100KW lasers right now.

1 is already being field tested. The other will join soon.

 

[Gautam]

You've gone off a cliff here. Even outdated rifles from WW2 will still kill you today.

But sir, killing me is hardly an achievement.

But look at the example I gave, if the AK-630 can't kill Brahmos, then it can't kill hypersonic weapons. So what's the point making an indigenous AK-630? It's pointless.

This conversation about the AK 630 started from the news of acquisition of Biho and how we don't have any comparable system despite having the building blocks for it. The only thing we don't have right now is as @Milspec pointed out a reliable 20/30/40mm auto-cannon and Gatling gun type weapon. AK 630 was merely an example to demonstrate how we make the Gsh 630 in our country but we don't use this to design our own gun. Now, I agree the AK630 is reaching obsolescence, which is why I asked will we continue with it while waiting for lasers. The point here is, even though the AK630 is old to the point of irrelevance in naval domain as a cruise missile defence, it will be still useful as a anti-aircraft artillery weapon. I don't think land mobile AAA is becoming irrelevant anytime soon.

There is no direct relation between the two. It's not the same people making it. Laser is purely within the electronics domain while artillery is in mechanical.

DRDO is very, very capable in electronics, not as good in gun-making, different people running the show. Since the starting time is the same, you can actually say that we will get a laser CIWS long, long before we get an indigenous but obsolete AK-630.

What timeline are we expecting here ? Have you come across anything related to laser research in India that inspires this confidence ? Any latest news I might have missed.

Unfortunately we have no choice. But the AK-630 is still useful against subsonic targets like Harpoon and aircraft that come too close. It's useful against secondary targets like speedboats, small ships et al.

Is the American Phalanx CIWS any better than the AK630 ?

 

[randomradio]

But sir, killing me is hardly an achievement.

The you there refers to people, not you specifically. Don't worry, no one's gonna train an AK630 on you either.

This conversation about the AK 630 started from the news of acquisition of Biho and how we don't have any comparable system despite having the building blocks for it. The only thing we don't have right now is as @Milspec pointed out a reliable 20/30/40mm auto-cannon and Gatling gun type weapon. AK 630 was merely an example to demonstrate how we make the Gsh 630 in our country but we don't use this to design our own gun.

We do not reverse engineer as a matter of policy. The Chinese have done it, but licensing ensures quality.

Now, I agree the AK630 is reaching obsolescence, which is why I asked will we continue with it while waiting for lasers. The point here is, even though the AK630 is old to the point of irrelevance in naval domain as a cruise missile defence, it will be still useful as a anti-aircraft artillery weapon. I don't think land mobile AAA is becoming irrelevant anytime soon.

Of course, we will continue with the AK630 for many more decades, just like we use the Mig-21. But we have no need to design one of our own, the same way we do not need our own Mig-21. Weapons need refresh every 10 years, but we get stuck with it for 20 years at the minimum after that. All forces generally have 1/3rd of their inventory classified into modern, satisfactory and outdated groups in their inventory. So the AK630 will end up in the satisfactory and outdated groups depending on the target.

For example, in 2035-40, we may install laser CIWS and a railgun on the Kolkata class during MLU, while the Visakhapatnam class may still be rocking the AK630. In the meantime, we will be inducting more advanced ships with laser CIWS and railguns. But just because we will be operating the outdated AK630 in 2035 doesn't mean we should make one right now.

It's 10-15 years. If something is going to become outdated in 10-15 years, then there's literally no point working on it.

What timeline are we expecting here ? Have you come across anything related to laser research in India that inspires this confidence ? Any latest news I might have missed.

These are strategic programs, so it's obviously not discussed in the open media. It's possible that the army may induct our first indigenous laser system the coming decade. The first indigenous laser weapons will be truck mounted. The FRCV will be getting a laser APS. The most secretive ones will be the ones going on naval ships. Since ships have space and power, we can install bulky lasers.

Apart from lasers, there are also microwave weapons.

Right now everything is demonstrative. But the good news is the whole world is still in the demonstrator phase.

Is the American Phalanx CIWS any better than the AK630 ?

I'd prefer AK630 for the bigger calibre. The best would be Pantsir-M.

 

[Milspec]

The you there refers to people, not you specifically. Don't worry, no one's gonna train an AK630 on you either.



We do not reverse engineer as a matter of policy. The Chinese have done it, but licensing ensures quality.



Of course, we will continue with the AK630 for many more decades, just like we use the Mig-21. But we have no need to design one of our own, the same way we do not need our own Mig-21. Weapons need refresh every 10 years, but we get stuck with it for 20 years at the minimum after that. All forces generally have 1/3rd of their inventory classified into modern, satisfactory and outdated groups in their inventory. So the AK630 will end up in the satisfactory and outdated groups depending on the target.

For example, in 2035-40, we may install laser CIWS and a railgun on the Kolkata class during MLU, while the Visakhapatnam class may still be rocking the AK630. In the meantime, we will be inducting more advanced ships with laser CIWS and railguns. But just because we will be operating the outdated AK630 in 2035 doesn't mean we should make one right now.

It's 10-15 years. If something is going to become outdated in 10-15 years, then there's literally no point working on it.



These are strategic programs, so it's obviously not discussed in the open media. It's possible that the army may induct our first indigenous laser system the coming decade. The first indigenous laser weapons will be truck mounted. The FRCV will be getting a laser APS. The most secretive ones will be the ones going on naval ships. Since ships have space and power, we can install bulky lasers.

Apart from lasers, there are also microwave weapons.

Right now everything is demonstrative. But the good news is the whole world is still in the demonstrator phase.



I'd prefer AK630 for the bigger calibre. The best would be Pantsir-M.

So , the bottom line is we will pin our hopes on building Lasers for Armored vehicles, CIWS, A/D, etc because that is the next evolution to medium caliber guns.

And we should not build such guns inhouse because such product will be outdated by the time we develop them, and we cannot build these weapons of reliable quality given we cannot even build decent rifles.

So these lasers, are we importing these? just following your logic here, given we can't build decent rifles, that transposes to we cant build decent quality 20/30/20/72 mm guns either,
BUT we miraculously build state of the art Lasers? How?

Given we have had issues with almost every DRDO labs product, these Lasers will run what 40 - 50 years behind the international quality curve and timelines to operationlize? (like LCA, Arjun, ICBM, SLBM, ATGM, 155mm Howitzer, A2A BVRAAM, etc)
So even if the tech is available in global markets by 2025, we would be looking at what 2075?

 

[randomradio]

So , the bottom line is we will pin our hopes on building Lasers for Armored vehicles, CIWS, A/D, etc because that is the next evolution to medium caliber guns.

And we should not build such guns inhouse because such product will be outdated by the time we develop them, and we cannot build these weapons of reliable quality given we cannot even build decent rifles.

So these lasers, are we importing these? just following your logic here, given we can't build decent rifles, that transposes to we cant build decent quality 20/30/20/72 mm guns either,
BUT we miraculously build state of the art Lasers? How?

I've already mentioned all of this in previous posts. Our laser R&D is much more ahead compared to anything we are doing with small calibre cannons.

Our electronics R&D is a huge success. Otoh, our firearms R&D is pathetic. Lasers is an entirely different industry.

Given we have had issues with almost every DRDO labs product, these Lasers will run what 40 - 50 years behind the international quality curve and timelines to operationlize? (like LCA, Arjun, ICBM, SLBM, ATGM, 155mm Howitzer, A2A BVRAAM, etc)
So even if the tech is available in global markets by 2025, we would be looking at what 2075?

Nope. We will be on par with global standards over the next 10 years. Even though we started late, we will keep up. When it comes to solid state lasers, we are probably just 5 years behind. And we are punching well above our weight when it comes to solid state. IAF recently announced that they will no longer have to import radars for example.

We cannot and should not try to compete globally with older generation tech where our competitors have a ridiculously large advantage, particularly in technologies that are becoming outdated. We should do that with newer generation tech since it's brand new. So we are talking about AI, DEW, hypersonics, biotechnology etc, where nobody has a significant lead.

If you recall, we did not bother to develop our own turbojet engine for the same reason back in the 80s. Instead we chased after turbofans. Different story that our industry was too immature for this task at the time, but it's not a problem now.

It's simple logic, really. We took 3 decades to make the Arjun's gun, and it's only at the level of what the West made back in the 80s. So we still need a decade or more to bring it on par with current standards, which is still a tall task. Now Arjun is a strategic weapon which nobody will part with easily, so it makes sense to develop it on our own, which we did. The same with howitzers. But stuff like small calibre cannons, we can import the best stuff from anybody we want and put it on any platform we want, no restrictions. So even if we make a cannon today, the armed forces won't accept it. So who are you making it for? Exports? Why would other countries care?

And, as I've pointed it out already, most of these small calibre cannons are going to be outdated pretty soon. This is the primary reason why I said we shouldn't pursue it.

 

[Milspec]

I've already mentioned all of this in previous posts. Our laser R&D is much more ahead compared to anything we are doing with small calibre cannons.

Our electronics R&D is a huge success. Otoh, our firearms R&D is pathetic. Lasers is an entirely different industry.

Yupp, with out state of the art indigenous radars, targeting pods, optical sensors and drones, that is quite evident.
But wait aren't we fielding Israeli radars on LCA, I wonder why, surely all the optical targeting pods on our jets must be homegrown, what about our sensor fusion suite on aircrafts, panoramic sights on battle tanks, sure we must be making a hell of weapon sights. Then atleast all of the AESA radars on our flagship destroyers must be indigenous,

Nope. We will be on par with global standards over the next 10 years. Even though we started late, we will keep up. When it comes to solid state lasers, we are probably just 5 years behind. And we are punching well above our weight when it comes to solid state. IAF recently announced that they will no longer have to import radars for example.

Name a few weapon systems that are at par with global standards.

We cannot and should not try to compete globally with older generation tech where our competitors have a ridiculously large advantage, particularly in technologies that are becoming outdated. We should do that with newer generation tech since it's brand new. So we are talking about AI, DEW, hypersonics, biotechnology etc, where nobody has a significant lead.

today 4.5th gen aircrafts are available off the shelf, So will be 5th gen in a few years, by the same logic, AMCA for sure should be scrapped.

If you recall, we did not bother to develop our own turbojet engine for the same reason back in the 80s. Instead we chased after turbofans. Different story that our industry was too immature for this task at the time, but it's not a problem now.

Well in the 80's we did not bother developing a lot of things, like our own Atgms, AAM's, SAM's LRSAM's, ack ack, passenger gets, transport a/c's, and look at the situation 4 decades down the line, we have to import pretty much everything.

It's simple logic, really. We took 3 decades to make the Arjun's gun, and it's only at the level of what the West made back in the 80s. So we still need a decade or more to bring it on par with current standards, which is still a tall task. Now Arjun is a strategic weapon which nobody will part with easily, so it makes sense to develop it on our own, which we did. The same with howitzers. But stuff like small calibre cannons, we can import the best stuff from anybody we want and put it on any platform we want, no restrictions. So even if we make a cannon today, the armed forces won't accept it. So who are you making it for? Exports? Why would other countries care?

What difference does it make when Taxpayers are there too pick up the tab and sellers willing to provide everything from m1's to challengers to t90's. What difference does the Strategic arjun make, and with it's dismal numbers it didn't make a dent.
And we are back to 80, maybe someone decided why invest in developing turbocharged diesel power-plants, by the year 2000 pretty sure tanks will be powered by the arc reactors.

And, as I've pointed it out already, most of these small calibre cannons are going to be outdated pretty soon. This is the primary reason why I said we shouldn't pursue it.

Well as you might have guessed by now, I vehemently disagree,

 

[randomradio]

Yupp, with out state of the art indigenous radars, targeting pods, optical sensors and drones, that is quite evident.
But wait aren't we fielding Israeli radars on LCA, I wonder why, surely all the optical targeting pods on our jets must be homegrown, what about our sensor fusion suite on aircrafts, panoramic sights on battle tanks, sure we must be making a hell of weapon sights. Then atleast all of the AESA radars on our flagship destroyers must be indigenous,

A huge chunk of our radar requirement are/will be indigenous. Only some are imported from earlier deals, like the MRSAM.

Name a few weapon systems that are at par with global standards.

Indian BMD. The new surveillance radars that are coming up. Like the HPR, MPR etc.

today 4.5th gen aircrafts are available off the shelf, So will be 5th gen in a few years, by the same logic, AMCA for sure should be scrapped.

AMCA is considered 5.5th gen. It's not going to be just another F-35.

Well in the 80's we did not bother developing a lot of things, like our own Atgms, AAM's, SAM's LRSAM's, ack ack, passenger gets, transport a/c's, and look at the situation 4 decades down the line, we have to import pretty much everything.

Different situation, we didn't have the economy. We were bhikaris all through the 80s and 90s anyway. Compounded by the fact that we depended on DPSUs.

Keep watch on our situation over the next 5 years. It's gonna surprise you. Particularly in the electronics domain.

This year will mark the first big ticket export contract for high end technology.

Well as you might have guessed by now, I vehemently disagree,

Too bad, but cannons are passe. The mach 3 speed itself will tell you all you need to know. The starting speeds alone for railguns will be mach 6-7. Lasers are obviously c.

In the meantime, all our smaller calibre cannons will come in from outside.