Indian Army Air Defence Corps : Updates & Discussions
- Thread starter Gautam
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Whatchu talking about? It's been in the works big time.
The BMD radars have already been set up. Here's a test radar.
HPRs are coming up. IAF has already ordered a bunch of MPRs also.
https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/IITM/high-power-radar.pdf
https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/mpr.pdf
Even quick reaction short range radars.
Then there's QRSAM.
These are all indigenous radars. The QRSAM is in fact superior to global peers.
We will be launching our first GEO Imagine Satellite this year, it can provide 24/7 early warning capability against large ballistic threats.
ISRO's GEO Imaging Satellite (GISAT) : Maximum Vigilance
Over the next 2 or 3 years, we will have achieved complete self-sufficiency in the electronics aspects of warfare.
I wish @Sancho was here. I'm past my honeymoon period at work. Else, I'd probably read enough to refute you. Just the basics - revolution is what happens in politics. In R&D, it's evolution. All the cannons you're referring to can't come into being overnight. And I don't see them as obsolete, not until the 40's, for like the Tejas, they'd still find use in our part of the World.
Whether we choose to develop such systems or import it like we do smallarms on account of a limited budget and limited aspirations/ goals in this sector is a different matter.
Sure. I'm not saying they will be obsolete today or even in the 2030s. What I'm saying is requirements for a cannon until it becomes fully obsolete will be fulfilled by imports, that's all. What I'm also saying is if we start cannon R&D today, we will have a globally on par product in 2040, the same date you say it will be obsolete, making it a pointless endeavour. So you will have a globally on par but obsolete product in 2040 if we start cannon development today. And trust me, the armed forces won't give two hoots about this cannon even after that.
Otoh, our laser R&D is far ahead compared to any cannon development we have.
This is the ADITYA truck mounted gas dynamic laser.
It's achieved a power of 100KW, and right now it can kill up to 800m, but it will eventually do 2.5Km.
We have also already made truck mounted COIL lasers of the 10 and 20KW class which can destroy IEDs. More than 30KW will allow us to weaponise it. And it can easily climb to 100KW. We will eventually see 30-100KW COIL based weapons in the near future.
As for solid state, we are approaching the 5-10KW class while advanced nations are at 20-30KW. In a few years, countries will be hitting the 100KW class, and this will be the dawn of the DEW. US, France etc will be achieving it by 2022 or so. We may follow suite well after 2025. That's how close we are to the world. Vehicle mounted lasers of 20-30KW can perform air defence at twice the range the cannons on the Biho/Pantsir can. Ships can use 100KW lasers for the same purpose but at much longer ranges, up to horizon.
The US has already deployed lasers capable of basic air defence on one of their ships. 30KW is enough to destroy UAVs and helicopters. Once it's scaled up to above 60KW, it can shoot down missiles also. One shot apparently costs less than a dollar.
Within 10 years, lasers on tanks and other vehicles will not just protect troops from missiles and UAVs, but also from artillery shells and mortars, C-RAM role. UCAVs can also be equipped with it and provide a two tier defence. Post 2025, you can expect the Rafale to be equipped with a laser pod that can provide active defence against AAMs. General Dynamics is making a laser called HELLADS, a 150KW laser used for the above purpose, including in the C-RAM role. It will be equipped on the Avenger drone which India plans to buy. The system is in field trials with lower power and they expect it to become available before 2025.
So cannons?
So given these systems are state of the art, export orders must be pouring in right?
So in 2 years domestic radar for LCA, MKI MLU, bye bye litening III, all domestic optical targeting pods for IAF? how about the MFSTAR? gone on 2 years? all domestic radars for IN?
Exports haven't been cleared for anything. First IAF orders will be fulfilled.
Why will we replace existing systems? Plenty of obsolete systems will go first, and we have tons of those.
Follow on LCA's are pending, so is MKI MLU, Follow on Vishakapatnam class, P17A, etc. By your logic all indigenous Electronics package?
It depends on how you look at it.
MKI - Russian radar, everything else is Indian. The reason for Russian radar is because we do not have our own in its class, we are only making a much smaller radar meant for LCA. So it's obvious the Russians are ahead and have more mature tech here. But the EW suite, comm, CITS, IFF and sensor fusion are Indian. But this configuration is only for Phase I of the MKI MLU, which is only 50-80 jets. Newer configurations have to be developed in the future for the rest of the fleet, which could be all Indian.
LCA:
Mk1 - All Indian.
Mk1A - Our radar will not be ready in time, whereas the IAF wants the jets right now. Hence why it will have Israeli radar and EW suite, but with an Indian MC.
Mk2/MWF - All Indian. Radar, EW suite, IRST, MC etc.
LCA will also be the first jet to get an indigenous targeting pod.
DRDO has already started looking for industry partners for its fighter AESA radar.
P17A and P-15B are using the MFSTAR, which was developed in a JV, it's not just an import by those standards and we have a contract to equip more than 2 dozen ships with it. The configuration for these ships were decided many years ago, P-15B in the last decade and P-17A early this decade. Obviously you can expect future ships to have indigenous air defences. For example, our new corvettes will likely carry DRDO's Astra SRSAM. When we build large surface combatants in the future, we will need to integrate it with our BMD. DRDO has obviously prioritised land based systems first, considering our main security threats come from over land. But we should have our own long range AD on ships in the next batch of destroyers and frigates we buy.
Here's an example:
Saab and Bharat Electronics Co-develop Surveillance Radar
Saab and BEL have developed a GaN L band radar for the IN. So we can see this on future ships. Of course LRDE is also working on similar radars with our own tech. So the IN can now have domestic tenders for such radars.
There's also a new radar called S band Naval Missile Defence Radar in the works, which will go on ships.
This is where we really are.
It's fully indigenous.
There's a good chance our future air defence needs will be met by DRDO's SFDR. It should comfortably supersede Barak 8 while taking the engagement range to beyond 300Km. Although their first priority is making an AAM.
Bull Shit..
On MKI, every wire harness, every connector, mission computers, lvdts, servo, generators, control cards, pressure transducers, relays, power supply modules, OLS, radar, input controller, altimeter, all is Russian, Navs were straight from sagem95 family, Only truly indian Content is the IFF, display modules and RWR on the system. Good luck building the next indigenous aircraft an bare airframe, an IFF and RWR and import the rest.
really? MK1 with ELM 2032 for first 20 and next 20 with ELM 2052 AESA are All Indian?
Why wouldn't it be, isn't it in development since the 90's, or were we assuming 20 years down the line all aircrafts were to be detected and tracked from space?
How many prototypes are ready? or are we waiting for the aircraft to be ready to test the first prototypes?
well it hasn't yet. we'll talk when the first one is cleared.
Given india is at par with the global standards for electronics warfare, shouldn't it be fielding it's AESA radar on available platforms right now.
You are too generous with DRDO's capability to prioritize let alone manage strategic projects. An organization that created a clusterfcuk of the the entire LCA program, one of the most strategically important program for India, I am quite sure is not going to delive AD lasers in the next couple of decades. Even if the technology becomes a global standard, which i highly doubt, DRDO will still run 4 decades behind the curve just the LCA program.
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Most of what you named are pointless to be indigenised for the MKI.
What matters is what's necessary to wage war, and that's going to be largely indigenous.
Also, most of what you named is not part of MLU.
The first 40 jets have Indian radars, not EL/M 2032.
No clue what you're talking about here.
Does it matter? LCA is not electronics.
Yes, we do. Only some of them.
Just place more orders.
So we do have indigenous AESA radars on flying platforms. Now all we need is more platforms to put it on.
Again, LCA is not an electronic device. But its radar and EW suite are, and both are Indian.
A ToT project which aimed incremental indigenous content did not live up to what it aimed for. Not to forget we import subsystems close to 22% in avionics and controls LRU's on MKI from rosoboron. The pointless part costs to about 12.32 million dollars. And that is not reflective of of Just MKI program, Look at LCA program, lets forget the fact that it pretty much flies with a foreign powerplant and all foreign ordnance; not having the ability to build simple things like antennas, aerospace grade control valves, pressure transducers, pressure switches, power supply units, temperature probes, etc leads to 47% of foreign content in Line replaceable units. Here is from ADA's own website.
This is how DRDO executes it's "Strategic Projects"
Really , it is a hybrid 2032, Drdo can call it whatever it wants.
It shows what fate awaits "strategic" lasers.
Yes, we do. Only some of them.
Just place more orders.
Ohh IAF just did, but for Phalcons.
Sure they are.
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Mostly to do with economies of scale rather than anything else. To keep the project cheap for 7 prototypes, it makes sense to import and then slowly indigenise over time. You've already see that even on the Mig-21.
How about this?
Look at what number 11 says.
No, all it uses is an Israeli made processor. Now we have our own, which we will use in future radars.
Like our missile programs?
You do realise Phase I BMD is complete, right?
Signed back in the early 2000s.
This is what I'm talking about.
https://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories3734_IAF_to_Buy_Two_Airbus_A330_based_AWACS.htm
Turkey to develop air defence laser system | Jane's 360
Turkey to develop air defence laser system
Turkish companies Aselsan, Roketsan, Ermeksan, and Saver, along with the Informatics and Information Security Research Center (Bilgem) within the Scientific and Technological Research Council of Turkey (Tubitak) and Gebze Technical University, have joined forces to turn their laser weapon studies into the development of a laser-based air-defence system.
Under the initiative the high power laser (YGL) project run by Tubitak-Bilgem will be adapted into a ship- and land-based air-defence system employing a 20 kW (4×5 kW) laser source to defend against rockets, missiles, and artillery rounds, the state-owned Anatolia news agency reported on 19 May.
The Air Defense Laser System, consisting of a high-power laser resonator (20-60 kW), high-power laser resistor, target tracking system, command-and-control system, and various other subsystems will engage incoming threats from a range of 3 km.
Turkey to develop air defence laser system
Turkish companies Aselsan, Roketsan, Ermeksan, and Saver, along with the Informatics and Information Security Research Center (Bilgem) within the Scientific and Technological Research Council of Turkey (Tubitak) and Gebze Technical University, have joined forces to turn their laser weapon studies into the development of a laser-based air-defence system.
Under the initiative the high power laser (YGL) project run by Tubitak-Bilgem will be adapted into a ship- and land-based air-defence system employing a 20 kW (4×5 kW) laser source to defend against rockets, missiles, and artillery rounds, the state-owned Anatolia news agency reported on 19 May.
The Air Defense Laser System, consisting of a high-power laser resonator (20-60 kW), high-power laser resistor, target tracking system, command-and-control system, and various other subsystems will engage incoming threats from a range of 3 km.
Turkey unveiled new laser weapon system capable cuts through steel armor – Defence Blog
Turkey’s Undersecretary for Defense Industries released video showing the new 1.25 kW laser system mounted on the Cobra armoured vehicle chassis and 20 kW laser systems that successfully cuts a 22-millimeter steel armor plate from a range of 500 meters.
The Turks are roughly where we are when it comes to solid state lasers. We are both likely on par since even we are experimenting with only 1 and 2 KW systems before we start scaling up to 5, 10, 20, and greater.
Once we get to 10 and 20KW, we can combine multiple lasers to create a 40 to 80KW system, and this can replace all types of small calibre cannons on pretty much every platform.
Once we get to the 50 to 100KW stage, we can mount it on aircraft for air defence.
Once we get to more than 100KW, we can use it for ballistic missile defence.
Most conventional weapons will eventually get replaced by DEW.
Turkey’s Undersecretary for Defense Industries released video showing the new 1.25 kW laser system mounted on the Cobra armoured vehicle chassis and 20 kW laser systems that successfully cuts a 22-millimeter steel armor plate from a range of 500 meters.
The Turks are roughly where we are when it comes to solid state lasers. We are both likely on par since even we are experimenting with only 1 and 2 KW systems before we start scaling up to 5, 10, 20, and greater.
Once we get to 10 and 20KW, we can combine multiple lasers to create a 40 to 80KW system, and this can replace all types of small calibre cannons on pretty much every platform.
Once we get to the 50 to 100KW stage, we can mount it on aircraft for air defence.
Once we get to more than 100KW, we can use it for ballistic missile defence.
Most conventional weapons will eventually get replaced by DEW.
The army and air force have asked for development and delivery of two types of laser weapons.
-One type is to target radar and EW antennas, mobile towers and cables, small UAVs etc from a distance up to 8Km. This is for Phase I.
-The second type should be able to kill soldiers and unarmoured vehicles from a distance of 20Km. It should also be able to destroy sensors in satellites located in LEO. This is part of Phase II.
The second project is for HPMs.
-Phase I is the same as for lasers.
-Phase II is meant to target avionics in surface to surface missiles and air launched PGMs from 15Km.
All these are guidelines for the Indian industry under the Make category.
Replacing the IN's AK 630 in the next 5-10 years is also part of the Make project for the Indian industry.
-One type is to target radar and EW antennas, mobile towers and cables, small UAVs etc from a distance up to 8Km. This is for Phase I.
-The second type should be able to kill soldiers and unarmoured vehicles from a distance of 20Km. It should also be able to destroy sensors in satellites located in LEO. This is part of Phase II.
The second project is for HPMs.
-Phase I is the same as for lasers.
-Phase II is meant to target avionics in surface to surface missiles and air launched PGMs from 15Km.
All these are guidelines for the Indian industry under the Make category.
Replacing the IN's AK 630 in the next 5-10 years is also part of the Make project for the Indian industry.
