Indian Ballistic Missile Defence Programme - Updates and Discussions

[randomradio]

XR-SAM's upper-stage airframe looked identical to the Akash-NG. Although the Astra Mk-2's airframe is also similar.

A SFDR based SAM is being worked. Who knows when that will arrive.

Astra will have much superior performance though, being lighter and smaller. With an initial high speed release, its 200+Km range at altitude can easily cross 250 or even 300Km.

Yep. To intercept a sea-skimming hypersonic AShM the SAM will need to have active thrusters similar to the DACS on the PDV Mk-2. We will also need hot launch set up & jet vane control system. AESA seekers, 2 way data links etc.

Putting them all on one missile will make it pretty heavy though, especially the DACS. We can use the Shaurya to test interception of hypersonic missiles. The Shaurya can't do sea skimming though, but still can be useful for testing. The building blocks are there, a lot of work to do.

Shaurya is unsuitable for this role. For a 500m interception, it will have to leave behind the booster and 1st stage our own deck.

The missile needs to be small and single stage, no different from Barak 8, Akash NG or even Astra.

DACS won't help inside the atmosphere, it's meant for use in space.

 

[Chain Smoker]

Astra will have much superior performance though, being lighter and smaller. With an initial high speed release, its 200+Km range at altitude can easily cross 250 or even 300Km.



Shaurya is unsuitable for this role. For a 500m interception, it will have to leave behind the booster and 1st stage our own deck.

The missile needs to be small and single stage, no different from Barak 8, Akash NG or even Astra.

DACS won't help inside the atmosphere, it's meant for use in space.

Anti HGV missile with very high lateral acceleration is under development.

 

[randomradio]

Anti HGV missile with very high lateral acceleration is under development.

That's something else entirely. It's not CIWS.

 

[Gautam]

Astra will have much superior performance though, being lighter and smaller. With an initial high speed release, its 200+Km range at altitude can easily cross 250 or even 300Km.

Won't the Navy need AWACS for early detection. Ship based sensors can only see so far.

Shaurya is unsuitable for this role. For a 500m interception, it will have to leave behind the booster and 1st stage our own deck.

The missile needs to be small and single stage, no different from Barak 8, Akash NG or even Astra.

I meant using the interceptor against the Shaurya. Not using the Shaurya as the interceptor.

DACS won't help inside the atmosphere, it's meant for use in space.

The Brahmos uses thrusters to go from vertical to horizontal. That's what I meant.

 

[randomradio]

Won't the Navy need AWACS for early detection. Ship based sensors can only see so far.

Definitely. Both AWACS and fighter jets. Even drones. We cannot effectively use long range SAMs without CEC.

I meant using the interceptor against the Shaurya. Not using the Shaurya as the interceptor.

My bad, was blind there.

The Brahmos uses thrusters to go from vertical to horizontal. That's what I meant.

Right, just one of the various types of TVC is enough though. We actually need something that's HTK and a small seeker, so there's not a lot of mass for attitude control, the hot launch itself will get the motor roaring from the start.

 

[Gautam]

We actually need something that's HTK and a small seeker, so there's not a lot of mass for attitude control, the hot launch itself will get the motor roaring from the start.

HTK with IIR seeker or RF seeker ? IIR seekers often need cooling for low altitude uses. That effects total weight. That uncooled IIR seeker seems to be coming along well. One of the spin offs from the Nag project.

Also how much weight can be shaved off before the terminal phase ? Unlike the PDV Mk-2, an Astra based HTK won't do any stage separation.

 

[Arctic Wolf]

Has the XRSAM been tested?

 

[randomradio]

HTK with IIR seeker or RF seeker ? IIR seekers often need cooling for low altitude uses. That effects total weight. That uncooled IIR seeker seems to be coming along well. One of the spin offs from the Nag project.

Poentially need both, a dual-seeker set up is definitely going to be the future for such SAMs.

Also how much weight can be shaved off before the terminal phase ? Unlike the PDV Mk-2, an Astra based HTK won't do any stage separation.

It depends on the size of the warhead needed to push the threat away using just a proximity fuse. But the speed of such missiles is so high that we need nothing short of a direct hit to defeat it. Astra class missiles have a 15Kg warhead, so that's okay, as long as it still hits it. Barak 8 otoh has a 60Kg warhead, I suppose Akash NG will be the same. So replacing with HTK will do wonders. Of course, it will need a new airframe design that makes use of the weight reduction that comes with it. There's no point in just changing the warhead on the same missile. Who knows, we might end up seeing something like the Cuda in such a role.

 

[Gautam]

Has the XRSAM been tested?

Not yet.

Poentially need both, a dual-seeker set up is definitely going to be the future for such SAMs.

We were studying a dual seeker set up. Wonder what's going on there.

It depends on the size of the warhead needed to push the threat away using just a proximity fuse. But the speed of such missiles is so high that we need nothing short of a direct hit to defeat it. Astra class missiles have a 15Kg warhead, so that's okay, as long as it still hits it. Barak 8 otoh has a 60Kg warhead, I suppose Akash NG will be the same. So replacing with HTK will do wonders. Of course, it will need a new airframe design that makes use of the weight reduction that comes with it. There's no point in just changing the warhead on the same missile. Who knows, we might end up seeing something like the Cuda in such a role.

Maybe use a smaller but more advanced warhead ? The BMD missiles use the directional charge warhead. That could be an option.

 

[randomradio]

We were studying a dual seeker set up. Wonder what's going on there.

Dunno about indigenous options, but Korea is offering it, with the K-SAAM.

Maybe use a smaller but more advanced warhead ? The BMD missiles use the directional charge warhead. That could be an option.

Sure. That would also do. But the fragments can still hit. I suppose we won't know the exact details though.

 

[Gautam]

Dunno about indigenous options, but Korea is offering it, with the K-SAAM.

Yes. But we were also studying one. Not sure if we were going to make it though.

Sure. That would also do. But the fragments can still hit. I suppose we won't know the exact details though.

Apparently DRDO lacked confidence in a HTKs in the early years of the BMD program so they employed a warhead. As seekers, radars & DRDO's confidence improved they gradually shifted to lighter & lighter warheads.

But the missiles were designed for a certain weight of warhead. Completely removing the warhead requires a significant redesign. DRDO thought might as well make completely new missiles. That's how the AD-1 &AD-2 were conceived. Thais is what I picked up. Who knows we may see a similar change in tactical SAMs too.

 

[SammyBoi]

Tell me people, does China not have a BMD Shield in place? I find it hard to believe that the only countries having this highly strategic capability are the US, the Russians, the Israelis and of course... us(not being pessimistic). I remember reading some Chinese think-tank member say, "Can you believe it, India having this [BMD] and China not?"
@randomradio, @Gautam ?

 

[randomradio]

Apparently DRDO lacked confidence in a HTKs in the early years of the BMD program so they employed a warhead. As seekers, radars & DRDO's confidence improved they gradually shifted to lighter & lighter warheads.

But the missiles were designed for a certain weight of warhead. Completely removing the warhead requires a significant redesign. DRDO thought might as well make completely new missiles. That's how the AD-1 &AD-2 were conceived. Thais is what I picked up. Who knows we may see a similar change in tactical SAMs too.

AD-1 and 2 are enigmas. Let's see when testing actually begins.

 

[Gautam]

Tell me people, does China not have a BMD Shield in place? I find it hard to believe that the only countries having this highly strategic capability are the US, the Russians, the Israelis and of course... us(not being pessimistic).

I don't keep track of Chinese missiles really. They have that SAM they sold to Pakistan didn't they. Also they have S400 so there is that.

I remember reading some Chinese think-tank member say, "Can you believe it, India having this [BMD] and China not?"

He was saying that they would also develop BMD.

 

[AbRaj]

Construction Of IAF's 'Desi' BMD Network Underway​

Thursday, November 25, 2021​

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Following 16 years of software develpment and eight years of hardware development and engineerng with the help of Israel Aerospace Industries and TADIRAN, Phase-1 of of the Indian Air Force’s ballistic missile defence (BMD) network is now under construction under Project Swordfish, which encompasses the building of three L-band long-range tracking radar (LRTR) sites (near Bhopal in Madhya Pradesh, near Jaipur, Rajasthan, and at an as-yet unidentified site in Uttarakhand)—all of which will be focussed along India’s western air-defence identification zone (ADIZ). Construction activities are slated for completion by mid-2023.

Under Phase-2, three additional LRTR sites will be built (with construction already commencing earlier ths year) to cater for the northern and northeastern portions of the IAF’s ADIZ.
Separately, work will commence next year on the construction of 12 L-band High-Power Radar sites—eight facing the LAC and four facing the IB, WB and LoC.

In addition, the DRDO-owned LRDE laboratory is developing a C-band (UHF-band) high-power and wide-scanning active phased-array radar for use with the DRDO-developed XR-SAM long-range SAM, which will make use of Ka-band active RF seeker for terminal guidance.
Posted by Prasun K. Sengupta at 6:36 AM

 

[RISING SUN]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1462741003144736775

 

[Arctic Wolf]

Construction Of IAF's 'Desi' BMD Network Underway​

Thursday, November 25, 2021​

​

​

​

​

Following 16 years of software develpment and eight years of hardware development and engineerng with the help of Israel Aerospace Industries and TADIRAN, Phase-1 of of the Indian Air Force’s ballistic missile defence (BMD) network is now under construction under Project Swordfish, which encompasses the building of three L-band long-range tracking radar (LRTR) sites (near Bhopal in Madhya Pradesh, near Jaipur, Rajasthan, and at an as-yet unidentified site in Uttarakhand)—all of which will be focussed along India’s western air-defence identification zone (ADIZ). Construction activities are slated for completion by mid-2023.

View attachment 21944Under Phase-2, three additional LRTR sites will be built (with construction already commencing earlier ths year) to cater for the northern and northeastern portions of the IAF’s ADIZ.
Separately, work will commence next year on the construction of 12 L-band High-Power Radar sites—eight facing the LAC and four facing the IB, WB and LoC.

In addition, the DRDO-owned LRDE laboratory is developing a C-band (UHF-band) high-power and wide-scanning active phased-array radar for use with the DRDO-developed XR-SAM long-range SAM, which will make use of Ka-band active RF seeker for terminal guidance.
Posted by Prasun K. Sengupta at 6:36 AM

Where do the Very Long Range Tracking Radars (VLRTR) fit in this (in terms of intended use)?

 

[Tatvamasi]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1475343760372350976

 

[randomradio]

Tell me people, does China not have a BMD Shield in place? I find it hard to believe that the only countries having this highly strategic capability are the US, the Russians, the Israelis and of course... us(not being pessimistic). I remember reading some Chinese think-tank member say, "Can you believe it, India having this [BMD] and China not?"
@randomradio, @Gautam ?

Yes, based on rumours, they are deploying or have deployed a missile shield against India based on the SC-19 missile. It's meant to stop some of the Agni family. Their HQ-9, S-300 and S-400 have some ability to deal with SRBMs and some MRBMs as well.

For Agni III and higher, not much. It's still WIP. But we don't know where they are in this segment.

We are "ahead" in the BMD game at the operational level because our main nuclear threat is Pakistan, so it's a low end threat with a maximum range of 2500Km. Naturally we have limited to no hard kill capability against IRBMs at this point, and they are in the same boat. And even we have the SC-19 class weapon.

 

[Chain Smoker]

Yes, based on rumours, they are deploying or have deployed a missile shield against India based on the SC-19 missile. It's meant to stop some of the Agni family. Their HQ-9, S-300 and S-400 have some ability to deal with SRBMs and some MRBMs as well.

For Agni III and higher, not much. It's still WIP. But we don't know where they are in this segment.

We are "ahead" in the BMD game at the operational level because our main nuclear threat is Pakistan, so it's a low end threat with a maximum range of 2500Km. Naturally we have limited to no hard kill capability against IRBMs at this point, and they are in the same boat. And even we have the SC-19 class weapon.

Very recently they have tested directional warhead where our decade old PAD already achieved this.