Indian Military UAV Procurement Programs : General Discussions

[randomradio]

where does it say CCS approval? When was it delivered? Why keep mum about such a development from both sides?

"MQ-9 deal has nothing to do with the Heron" but it has to do with Heron-TP both have the same role and capabilites.

The Heron TP deal was signed right after we got into the MTCR. And it was all hush-hush because Israel is not a member of MTCR and the deal was offered and negotiated before we became a part of MTCR. Now it doesn't matter much because we have full membership of MTCR and as per Israel's own policy they would sell armed drones only to MTCR members.

Anyway, I'd like to make a correction. The approval that came from the govt in 2015 is not from CCS, but it's not from MoD either, it was likely from the PMO, because it was in a legal grey area.

 

[Ashwin]

The Heron TP deal was signed right after we got into the MTCR. And it was all hush-hush because Israel is not a member of MTCR and the deal was offered and negotiated before we became a part of MTCR. Now it doesn't matter much because we have full membership of MTCR and as per Israel's own policy they would sell armed drones only to MTCR members.

Anyway, I'd like to make a correction. The approval that came from the govt in 2015 is not from CCS, but it's not from MoD either, it was likely from the PMO, because it was in a legal grey area.

These are all of the past. The deal was supposed to be signed in 2018. That means some or all are delivered. Its half a billion deal. It would have been reported on the company annual report. Or the Israeli press.

Israeli Industry Pushing Jerusalem To Drop MTCR Drone Export Restrictions - Breaking Defense

"We cannot play according to these rules anymore, when everybody else just goes wild," an Israeli industry source said.

breakingdefense.com

Don't take the classified route. If it were there would have been clear reporting saying so.

 

[randomradio]

These are all of the past. The deal was supposed to be signed in 2018. That means some or all are delivered. Its half a billion deal. It would have been reported on the company annual report. Or the Israeli press.

Israeli Industry Pushing Jerusalem To Drop MTCR Drone Export Restrictions - Breaking Defense

"We cannot play according to these rules anymore, when everybody else just goes wild," an Israeli industry source said.

breakingdefense.com

Don't take the classified route. If it were there would have been clear reporting saying so.

Anything in an annual report doesn't have to be exact. It can be covered up in generalities. Like they exported 100 dones to many countries worth this much, they don't need to mention the specifics.

And armed drones fall in the grey area for Israel because they are not part of MTCR.

As for the viewpoint in the article, it's pretty accurate. China sells armed drones to anybody they want regardless of MTCR, so they do not care about it. So it's natural the Israeli industry wants the same treatment.

India all set to get missile armed drones from Israel

Sources have told ET that 10 Heron TP-armed drones, which were under the procurement process since 2015, are now ready for delivery.

economictimes.indiatimes.com

Sources have told ET that 10 Heron TP-armed drones, which were under the procurement process since 2015, are now ready for delivery. The drones could be brought into service by India at the earliest but the final milestone payment is still pending.

As reported by ET on September 11, 2015, the defence ministry had quietly approved the purchase of 10 missile-armed drones from Israel for $400 million under directions from the highest levels of government.

 

[Ashwin]

Sources have told ET that 10 Heron TP-armed drones, which were under the procurement process since 2015, are now ready for delivery. The drones could be brought into service by India at the earliest but the final milestone payment is still pending.

As reported by ET on September 11, 2015, the defence ministry had quietly approved the purchase of 10 missile-armed drones from Israel for $400 million under directions from the highest levels of government.

Again, where does it say it was signed or delivered. Why did they initiate guardian deal after this. Why do they need two separate systems doing the same job?

As i said, They changed it to a lease of four now buy.

India Buys 4 Israeli Herons, to Upgrade Them With Missiles as Army, IAF, Navy Ramp Up Drone Inventory - News18

The Heron drones will initially be used in surveillance missions, and later upgraded under Project Cheetah when it kicks off. Several such procurement processes are underway across the three services.

www.news18.com

But the writer is confusing it with Project Cheetah which is to upgrade the original Heron nothing to do with this buy. Or this could be just original heron attrition replacement.

@KUNAL BISWAS @Amal @hellbent @Aditya b7777 thoughts on this

 

[randomradio]

Again, where does it say it was signed or delivered. Why did they initiate guardian deal after this. Why do they need two separate systems doing the same job?

The article obviously speaks of payment, then it's obvious we signed a contract.

There's no relation. We will operate both. There's also the question of export restrictions on the external payload of the Heron TP.

 

[Aditya b7777]

Again, where does it say it was signed or delivered. Why did they initiate guardian deal after this. Why do they need two separate systems doing the same job?


@KUNAL BISWAS @Amal @hellbent @Aditya b7777 thoughts on this

IAF and IN as of now use older Heron-1 drones if I’m not wrong, I wonder how they’re going to upgrade them as they were originally designed for surveillance only and if it’s possible and feasible to upgrade them into armed drones then what weapons will they be integrated with?. I still can’t understand the decision of buying just 4 Heron-TPs.

 

[randomradio]

IAF and IN as of now use older Heron-1 drones if I’m not wrong, I wonder how they’re going to upgrade them as they were originally designed for surveillance only and if it’s possible and feasible to upgrade them into armed drones then what weapons will they be integrated with?.

It can carry 2 Spikes.

I still can’t understand the decision of buying just 4 Heron-TPs.

It's for the army and it's only just the beginning, just like those 6 Apaches. Since it was originally a lease, the procurement numbers were also small. Anyway 4 drones make a squadron.

 

[Ashwin]

IAF and IN as of now use older Heron-1 drones if I’m not wrong, I wonder how they’re going to upgrade them as they were originally designed for surveillance only and if it’s possible and feasible to upgrade them into armed drones then what weapons will they be integrated with?. I still can’t understand the decision of buying just 4 Heron-TPs.

Project cheetah is a tri-service upgrade of all Heron-1. It will be mostly about satnav and sensor upgrades. Adding two hard points is not that difficult. Our useless Rustom-1 upgraded to the same.

My question was that do we already operate 10 Heron-TP?

 

[Hydra]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1491822187992391695

https://twitter.com/x/status/1491837124043173890

 

[Ashwin]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1491659791793819654

 

[_Anonymous_]

This is turning out to be a joke & a rather sick one at that.

 

[Tatvamasi]

Plan to buy Predator drones put on hold

The centre was planning to acquire 30 Predator armed drones for use across services at the cost of at least $3 billion from US-based General Atomics

www.hindustantimes.com

What a joke, Atmanirbhar nutcases running MoD. Rustom ? come on

 

[randomradio]

Plan to buy Predator drones put on hold

The centre was planning to acquire 30 Predator armed drones for use across services at the cost of at least $3 billion from US-based General Atomics

www.hindustantimes.com

What a joke, Atmanirbhar nutcases running MoD. Rustom ? come on

Rustom-2 carries the same avionics package as the Reaper, or even the Sky Guardian. It can be modified for Sea Guardian roles as well.

 

[Ashwin]

Rustom-2 carries the same avionics package as the Reaper, or even the Sky Guardian. It can be modified for Sea Guardian roles as well.

Not even close. Expecting Rustom-2 to perform as good as a twice as big (5.5 ton) UAV is just unreasonable.

Even today, Only army is the real buyer lined up for Rustom-2 with 50+ numbers anticipated. It will not be replacing Herons of AF or Navy as they are going for upgrades.

MQ-9B is must for Navy. They will be going ahead with or without other services.

 

[Tatvamasi]

India-US Deal For 30 Armed Predator Drones At Advanced Stages: Report

The discussions on the sale of 30 Predator armed drones by the US to India, the first to a non-NATO ally, at an estimated cost of USD 3 billion are at an advanced stage, multiple sources have confirmed.

www.ndtv.com

HT's Shishir gupta is wrong again. PTI reporting.

 

[TARGET]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1497851179673559045

Seems to be we are trying to fix the CAATSA leakage...initial media statement was a message to the USA that decide what you want ....future defense deal with India or CAATSA Sanction against India. I think we already planned to buy 30 drones. Let's see what will happen ...

 

[randomradio]

Not even close. Expecting Rustom-2 to perform as good as a twice as big (5.5 ton) UAV is just unreasonable.

That's not how it works. Reaper is only heavier than the Rustom-2 because it carries weapons, which requires stronger wings and more fuel, hence a larger engine to consume said fuel. Otoh, Rustom-2 has two engines, which provides the same electrical power as Reaper's one engine. And the avionics is the same. The same SAR radar will give you the same data, whether it's on Reaper or Rustom. Rustom can carry an AESA radar instead of MS on the Reaper. And the EO/IR device is also pretty much the same, in fact superior Israeli tech on the Rustom-2. ESM should be similar. More importantly, Rustom-2 will be better integrated with the military comm network.

In terms of avionics, there's basically no difference, with the exception that Rustom-2 is newer so it will very likely carry more advanced hardware. Plus, the transition to newer technologies will be faster than we can import.

Basically, both Rustom-2 and Reaper have the same size avionics bay and can carry the same avionics with the same weight restrictions.

Some of the performance advantages of the Sky Guardian are irrelevant to this. All we have to do is make an Mk2 version, just like the Americans did.

Even today, Only army is the real buyer lined up for Rustom-2 with 50+ numbers anticipated. It will not be replacing Herons of AF or Navy as they are going for upgrades.

What's fine for the army will be fine for the air force. It just depends on when they will free up money for drones after the issue with fighters is solved. Herons have nothing to do with it, drones do not have long service lives in terms of years. Anyway, the IAF is also interested in it, so are the navy and coast guard.

MQ-9B is must for Navy. They will be going ahead with or without other services.

Agreed for the navy.

In fact, it's just 10 each, so it's not enough numbers to interrupt indigenous programs. The navy's numbers could climb to 20+, they originally wanted 22 drones. The Sea Guardian comes with some other equipment which will take time to incorporate into Rustom-2, so that's fine. And we need the Sea Guardian for interoperability with the USN. A Triton order is also expected to follow suit.

The IAF and IA can make do without buying the Sky Guardian though, the Rustom-2 will be enough. A lease is cheaper for them.

 

[randomradio]

India-US Deal For 30 Armed Predator Drones At Advanced Stages: Report

The discussions on the sale of 30 Predator armed drones by the US to India, the first to a non-NATO ally, at an estimated cost of USD 3 billion are at an advanced stage, multiple sources have confirmed.

www.ndtv.com

HT's Shishir gupta is wrong again. PTI reporting.

No, all import deals have come under scrutiny. This includes all deals with the US.

 

[Ashwin]

That's not how it works. Reaper is only heavier than the Rustom-2 because it carries weapons, which requires stronger wings and more fuel, hence a larger engine to consume said fuel. Otoh, Rustom-2 has two engines, which provides the same electrical power as Reaper's one engine. And the avionics is the same. The same SAR radar will give you the same data, whether it's on Reaper or Rustom. Rustom can carry an AESA radar instead of MS on the Reaper. And the EO/IR device is also pretty much the same, in fact superior Israeli tech on the Rustom-2. ESM should be similar. More importantly, Rustom-2 will be better integrated with the military comm network.

In terms of avionics, there's basically no difference, with the exception that Rustom-2 is newer so it will very likely carry more advanced hardware. Plus, the transition to newer technologies will be faster than we can import.

Basically, both Rustom-2 and Reaper have the same size avionics bay and can carry the same avionics with the same weight restrictions.

None of this is true. Even the empty weight is double (Setting aside the fact that R-2 became overweight). Every psychical character is significantly bigger for Reaper. Expecting DRDO to miniaturize every component better than US but give a similar performance is just hilarious. Common sense dictates otherwise. Rustom has a better AESA radar than Lynx Multi-mode Radar? . There isn't much isreali involvement in the project why would they undercut their offering?!

There is nothing better or advanced in Rustom than the newest version of predator UAV. Its bigger better and from a different class in every aspect. Thus its costly. It is ground up designed to be a strike platform, we do not have anything analogous. Rustom-2 is comparable to MQ-1C for the missions its built for. Everything is unproven in rustom as its late and coming from a DRDO lab which is yet to deliver a finished product in last 20 years. So, there is no point in boosting. Rustom is a failure before its available to the services. And it will probably remain so.

What's fine for the army will be fine for the air force.

Is that why they are making 3 different versions!

The IAF and IA can make do without buying the Sky Guardian though, the Rustom-2 will be enough

Agree here. Its an overkill for their use case. They just don't want to be left out.

 

[randomradio]

None of this is true. Even the empty weight is double (Setting aside the fact that R-2 became overweight). Every psychical character is significantly bigger for Reaper. Expecting DRDO to miniaturize every component better than US but give a similar performance is just hilarious. Common sense dictates otherwise. Rustom has a better AESA radar than Lynx Multi-mode Radar? . There isn't much isreali involvement in the project why would they undercut their offering?!

There is nothing better or advanced in Rustom than the newest version of predator UAV. Its bigger better and from a different class in every aspect. Thus its costly. It is ground up designed to be a strike platform, we do not have anything analogous. Rustom-2 is comparable to MQ-1C for the missions its built for. Everything is unproven in rustom as its late and coming from a DRDO lab which is yet to deliver a finished product in last 20 years. So, there is no point in boosting. Rustom is a failure before its available to the services. And it will probably remain so.

You should check the dimensions yourself. Reaper is longer because its engine is on the fuselage and has a main fuel tank at the back, all of which increases weight by a significant margin. Rustom 2 is light simply because its wings are light and is shorter.

Where you put the avionics, the dimensions are similar, so both carry the same avionics payload.

As for any issues with maturity or failure, that's just your uninformed opinion, DRDO is not operating with such an opinion. It's obvious that a lease will take care of potential delays. In any case, Rustom-2 is no longer being considered a failure. It's even getting a new Indian engine.

Rustom-2 is basically a non-weaponised Reaper carrying the same avionics.

Lynx is a very old radar, it's not AESA.

The Predator drone is very small, it can't be compared with Rustom-2. It's powered by a small 115HP engine whereas Rustom-2 will have 2 220HP engines. Its avionics payload is 200Kg whereas Rustom-2's is 360 Kg, Reaper's is 390Kg.

You are not comparing what's supposed to be compared, you are comparing irrelevant stuff.