Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

[Gautam]

Project status : 70% of work on SFDR is complete. Project will be complete by 2-2.5 years.
Fuel : Boron based fuel produces around twice the specific impulse(Isp) compared to Magnesium based fuel. The target for Isp is more than 1000 sec.
Usage : Use will be for a future variant of Astra(AAMs), ARMs, AShM etc
Dimensions : Less than 4m length, less than 200mm diameter.
Platforms : Su-30MKI, Rafale, Tejas etc

 

[Nikhil]

Project status : 70% of work on SFDR is complete. Project will be complete by 2-2.5 years.
Fuel : Boron based fuel produces around twice the specific impulse(Isp) compared to Magnesium based fuel. The target for Isp is more than 1000 sec.
Usage : Use will be for a future variant of Astra(AAMs), ARMs, AShM etc
Dimensions : Less than 4m length, less than 200mm diameter.
Platforms : Su-30MKI, Rafale, Tejas etc

Seeker Konsa AESA? why not build a dual mode terminal homing seeker with both FPA base CCD/IIR + AESA millimeter wave radar seeker like one on stunner missile.





Indian development agencies need to start being innovative. RF seeker won't cut it in future. Probably even US is moving towards dual AESA + IIR based solution for upcoming AIM 260 AMRAAM.

 

[Ashwin]

Seeker Konsa AESA? why not build a dual mode terminal homing seeker with both FPA base CCD/IIR + AESA millimeter wave radar seeker like one on stunner missile.

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Indian development agencies need to start being innovative. RF seeker won't cut it in future. Probably even US is moving towards dual AESA + IIR based solution for upcoming AIM 260 AMRAAM.

SFDR is no innovation but somehow this is?

 

[Nikhil]

SFDR is no innovation but somehow this is?

propulsion for longer range engagement ?only good if you can detect and get a firing solution for the claimed range.
I highly doubt ramjet will give edge over conventional or dual pulse propulsion
when most engagement in future will happen in closer ranges due to advancement and proliferation of stealth + jamming technologies around the globe.
I read somewhere that Russian jammers like SAP-518 make SU 30, 35 undetectable by planes likes f -16 until they are less than 60km away.

 

[Nikhil]

Stunner is a innovation. That dolphin nose allow dual seeker giving it unmatched jamming resistance and terminal engagement capability. If DRDO can put a dolphin nose with dual seeker on SFDR than I would be more than happy.

 

[randomradio]

propulsion for longer range engagement ?only good if you can detect and get a firing solution for the claimed range.
I highly doubt ramjet will give edge over conventional or dual pulse propulsion
when most engagement in future will happen in closer ranges due to advancement and proliferation of stealth + jamming technologies around the globe.
I read somewhere that Russian jammers like SAP-518 make SU 30, 35 undetectable by planes likes f -16 until they are less than 60km away.

Ramjet is better than solid fuel at any range.

 

[Nikhil]

Ramjet is better than solid fuel at any range.

no doubt but most engagement ain't happening in longer ranges in future but at closer ranges and ramjet edge Start vanishing there.

 

[randomradio]

no doubt but most engagement ain't happening in longer ranges in future but at closer ranges and ramjet edge Start vanishing there.

Once the boost phase is over and the ramjet kicks in, the missile shows superior kinematic capabilities. So long range is subjective.

 

[BMD]

propulsion for longer range engagement ?only good if you can detect and get a firing solution for the claimed range.
I highly doubt ramjet will give edge over conventional or dual pulse propulsion
when most engagement in future will happen in closer ranges due to advancement and proliferation of stealth + jamming technologies around the globe.
I read somewhere that Russian jammers like SAP-518 make SU 30, 35 undetectable by planes likes f -16 until they are less than 60km away.

What about distributed surveillance though, like smaller and smaller forward drones for detecting enemy fighters?

 

[randomradio]

What about distributed surveillance though, like smaller and smaller forward drones for detecting enemy fighters?

That also would mean smaller and smaller sensors thereby resulting in the same situation as before.

What you would really need is a frigging large sensor on a frigging large fighter jet, and smaller "receiver" sensors spread across multiple drones, thereby creating a multistatic effect. With multiple fighter jets and drones, you create a long range detection net. A system of systems.

 

[Nikhil]

What about distributed surveillance though, like smaller and smaller forward drones for detecting enemy fighters?

That also would mean smaller and smaller sensors thereby resulting in the same situation as before.

What you would really need is a frigging large sensor on a frigging large fighter jet, and smaller "receiver" sensors spread across multiple drones, thereby creating a multistatic effect. With multiple fighter jets and drones, you create a long range detection net. A system of systems.

Nice idea probably the way to go. I say put few stealth drones 100km in front of a strike package with in build IRST passive sensor's scanning whole frontal sector and relaying information back. a small stealth drone with in build sensor like
EOTS , IRST21 which can also provide firing solution will be nightmare even for stealth planes.





You can build a whole drone around these things which will be small and won't compromise detection capabilities even for longer ranges.

 

[randomradio]

Nice idea probably the way to go. I say put few stealth drones 100km in front of a strike package with in build IRST passive sensor's scanning whole frontal sector and relaying information back. a small stealth drone with in build sensor like
EOTS , IRST21 which can also provide firing solution will be nightmare even for stealth planes.

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IRST is a secondary sensor, not a primary sensor. It doesn't have the capability to search targets on its own due to a very small FoV.

 

[Nikhil]

IRST is a secondary sensor, not a primary sensor. It doesn't have the capability to search targets on its own due to a very small FoV.

It's doesn't matter if it's has a small FoV but whether it has the range or ability to provide firing solution which modern IRST have. small FoV problem can be overcome using more networked drones. my whole point being using passive sensors as much as possible as they have the least amount of chance being detected even by stealth planes. Imagine a strike package of mirage 2000, sukhoi ,MIG 29 going up against a sqrdn of F-35....what will you do?
a mix of such small stealth drones flying 100 of km in front using jammers, active and passive sensors will detect F 35 long before F 35 mange to detect them or strike package. They will instantly relay information back to sukhoi to fire there longer range SFDRs.
It will be over for F 35 by the time it sensors detect the drones or incoming barrage of BVRAAM. best it can do is turn and run.

 

[randomradio]

It's doesn't matter if it's has a small FoV but whether it has the range or ability to provide firing solution which modern IRST have. small FoV problem can be overcome using more networked drones. my whole point being using passive sensors as much as possible as they have the least amount of chance being detected even by stealth planes. Imagine a strike package of mirage 2000, sukhoi ,MIG 29 going up against a sqrdn of F-35....what will you do?
a mix of such small stealth drones flying 100 of km in front using jammers, active and passive sensors will detect F 35 long before F 35 mange to detect them or strike package. They will instantly relay information back to sukhoi to fire there longer range SFDRs.
It will be over for F 35 by the time it sensors detect the drones or incoming barrage of BVRAAM. best it can do is turn and run.

Close one eye, close your first to make a tunnel and place it over your other eye. That's how IRST is.

You need luck to detect anything with IRST withotu radar support.

 

[Nikhil]

Close one eye, close your first to make a tunnel and place it over your other eye. That's how IRST is.

You need luck to detect anything with IRST withotu radar support.

putting an AESA along with IRST will do the trick then?

 

[randomradio]

putting an AESA along with IRST will do the trick then?

Yeah, you need the radar as the primary for all purposes.

IRST and even a visual camera are extras, which are good for ID and combat purposes.

You can cue the IRST based on external radar data as well, like AWACS and ground radars.

 

[hellbent]

Stunner is a innovation. That dolphin nose allow dual seeker giving it unmatched jamming resistance and terminal engagement capability. If DRDO can put a dolphin nose with dual seeker on SFDR than I would be more than happy.

Dolphin nose is not a requisite to mount dual seekers

 

[hellbent]

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[BMD]

That also would mean smaller and smaller sensors thereby resulting in the same situation as before.

What you would really need is a frigging large sensor on a frigging large fighter jet, and smaller "receiver" sensors spread across multiple drones, thereby creating a multistatic effect. With multiple fighter jets and drones, you create a long range detection net. A system of systems.

If your drone is small enough, just equip it with IIR, that will work to tens of km and the drone can be launched off the attacking fighters or larger aircraft if the range is sufficient. IRST scans rapidly and could be cued by RF transmissions detected passively, or by fighter or ground radar refelection bouncing a much shorter distance back off the aircraft to the drones. Basically imagine something ASRRAM/MICA-sized but with a turbofan engine. The enemy would be hard pushed to justify shooting it down with a missile of their own, and doing so would give their position away anyway.

A detection net is exactly what I was getting at. You could have drones, fighter aircraft, SAM radar, AWACS and even satellites all tied together. There are also RF passive detection and targeting systems that become possible with a distributed system.

 

[Nikhil]

Dolphin nose is not a requisite to mount dual seekers

Yes but dolphin nose split aperture provide one the best shape to house both RF and IIR seeker. all other design like putting seeker in front and using advance material shaped to refocus the radar energy around the tip or to use conventional radome with 4 IIR windows at the front considerably degrade seeker capabilities.
what I am trying to say is that instead of looking for RF based solution alone we need to look for dual seeker solutions. Ek se badiya do. If RF seeker is jammed at least IIR will make sure missile hit the target.