Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

[_Anonymous_]

You do realise brahmos is a JV and hence prone to shenanigans of the other partner.

The vijander guys is a Russian fanboy and ironically he is ex military

I am wondering how the heck did he mange to compare indian seekers , data links with foreign ones without access to the Indian sub systems vis a vis corresponding foreign products.

Wasn't the reason why the then GoI proposed the JV with Russia due to our inexperience with such systems & to get a peek at it by our agencies.

Regardless, there's nothing to prevent us from developing our own series of supersonic & hypersonic missiles which we've got down to recently.

Yet it's taken us a full 2 decades & we've still not come up with our own ramjet. We'd get there not just with the ramjet but the scramjet too. There's only the minor issue of decades taken to do it.

 

[AbRaj]

You do realise brahmos is a JV and hence prone to shenanigans of the other partner.

The vijander guys is a Russian fanboy and ironically he is ex military

I am wondering how the heck did he mange to compare indian seekers , data links with foreign ones without access to the Indian sub systems vis a vis corresponding foreign products.

He actually has never hidden it. There are numerous videos on YT where he is talking about sponsored trip to Russia for coverage of weapon launch. He is part of the lobby group.
Only fanboys take his adverts as gospel truth.
@Gautaum he is getting paid for all this propaganda. No one sponsors holiday tours in lavish Moscow hotel for nothing

 

[_Anonymous_]

I remember regularly reading his posts a long time back. Then I gave up as I saw increasing inconsistencies.

When the first test of the Nirbhay failed, he claimed India doesn't have any capabilities etc etc. Second test succeeded, he claimed the Russians helped us. 3rd test failed again, he started with the routine of DRDO can't do anything. So the saga continues. I have seen this pattern before.

His reporting of the Astra missiles development is no better. Same story. When news came of the development of a Ku band radar, he claimed DRDO can't do it as they have no prior experience. The rest is history.

How many days has it been since we tested the HSTDV or the SMART ? Both path breaking in their own right. Those missiles are 80s tech ? I used to admire his & Ajay Shukla's reporting. I also used to believe all ex-military guys must be undoubtedly great experts & will never have any ulterior motives. Then a gentleman by the name Panag came along. I rest my case.

Draw your conclusions mate, I have drawn mine.

Actually both the HSDTV & SMART aren't new concepts or technologies to speak off. The West attempted work on Hypersonic & supersonic missiles in the 70's & gave up. It's only in recent times that they've accelerated work on it primarily due to China being in the thick of it.

Having said that, our achievements though late are commendable. As to the quality, can't really comment about it though Vijayinder Thakur has raised good points here ( compare the weight of the Agni -V & it's payload with its contemporaries) but you're right about him being an interested party with his own agenda.

PS - is there any official confirmation about the 650 kms range that's been reported in the media for SMART. PKS has repeatedly been pointing out that the range wouldn't exceed 50 kms with plenty of reasons why a 650 kms range is pretty useless apart from pointing out that contemporary designs by other navies too use something similar. Not that PKS is always right but the reasons he provides does make sense.

 

[Ashwin]

You do realise brahmos is a JV and hence prone to shenanigans of the other partner.
View attachment 18262
The vijander guys is a Russian fanboy and ironically he is ex military

I am wondering how the heck did he mange to compare indian seekers , data links with foreign ones without access to the Indian sub systems vis a vis corresponding foreign products.

I remember regularly reading his posts a long time back. Then I gave up as I saw increasing inconsistencies.

When the first test of the Nirbhay failed, he claimed India doesn't have any capabilities etc etc. Second test succeeded, he claimed the Russians helped us. 3rd test failed again, he started with the routine of DRDO can't do anything. So the saga continues. I have seen this pattern before.

His reporting of the Astra missiles development is no better. Same story. When news came of the development of a Ku band radar, he claimed DRDO can't do it as they have no prior experience. The rest is history.

How many days has it been since we tested the HSTDV or the SMART ? Both path breaking in their own right. Those missiles are 80s tech ? I used to admire his & Ajay Shukla's reporting. I also used to believe all ex-military guys must be undoubtedly great experts & will never have any ulterior motives. Then a gentleman by the name Panag came along. I rest my case.

Draw your conclusions mate, I have drawn mine.

Die-hard Russian lobbyist. But couldn't differentiate between R77 and R27. Blocked us for pointing out the same long back.

 

[Ashwin]

Look up the TL of the Brahmos & how long did it take us to develop various components of it viz seeker, booster & propulsion systems. FYI - we've still not developed the ramjet engine & it's about 18 years since we've inducted the 1st Brahmos. That should give you a fair idea.

Contractually we cant replace these. There is a 50% limit. That is how JV works.

You could refer to the Nirbhay too. We began preliminary work on it in 2010 & we've just about developed the Manik turbofan which isn't a mature time tested product by any yardstick.

No, we started in 2004. Chinese still rely on soviet small engine designs even on their latest missiles. While we have already tested a clean-sheet design. The engine is the last piece.

The entire west depends a handful of designs from Turbomeca,P&W or Williams. Making one ourself is a significant achievement.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Contractually we cant replace these. There is a 50% limit. That is how JV works.

I'm aware of it which is why I qualified my post with why did have to undertake developmental work on such technologies so late in the day unless there was a hidden protocol we agreed to with the Russians which effectively imposed a moratorium on us for a stipulated time period during which we would not develop or deploy such technologies. It can't be ruled out.

No, we started in 2004. Chinese still rely on soviet small engine designs even on their latest missiles. While we have already tested a clean-sheet design. The engine is the last piece.

The entire west depends a handful of designs from Turbomeca,P&W or Williams. Making one ourself is a significant achievement.

Do the Chinese sell drones like the Wing loong to 3rd parties with a Russian engine ? Ditto for their exports of CM to Paxtan? I don't keep a track of Chinese achievements in this field . Do you?


As far as the West goes, once we've mastered the turbofan for the Nirbhay or for that of other drones then evey thing right upto the ramjet will be the preserve of only 1 lab & manufacturing set up like in the West. Not sure what's the point you're trying to make. If you're hinting these technologies are the preserve of a few nations, I haven't denied that either.



Finally , I never denied the salience of our achievement. Only asked why was it so delayed.Moreover the quality of these achievements is a different topic altogether. Since our knowledge on it is severely restricted, I won't broach the subject.

 

[Ashwin]

I'm aware of it which is why I qualified my post with why did have to undertake developmental work on such technologies so late in the day unless there was a hidden protocol we agreed to with the Russians which effectively imposed a moratorium on us for a stipulated time period during which we would not develop or deploy such technologies. It can't be ruled out.

Not time period but limited content. No need to speculate when you have actual information.

Do the Chinese sell drones like the Wing loong to 3rd parties with a Russian engine ? Ditto for their exports of CM to Paxtan? I don't keep a track of Chinese achievements in this field . Do you?

Yes and Yes. All soviet design.

As far as the West goes, once we've mastered the turbofan for the Nirbhay or for that of other drones then evey thing right upto the ramjet will be the preserve of only 1 lab & manufacturing set up like in the West. Not sure what's the point you're trying to make. If you're hinting these technologies are the preserve of a few nations, I haven't denied that either.

Limited sources point to hard to master. Hard to master means it takes a long time. The point was in front of you.

 

[bille ka vut]

Actually both the HSDTV & SMART aren't new concepts or technologies to speak off. The West attempted work on Hypersonic & supersonic missiles in the 70's & gave up. It's only in recent times that they've accelerated work on it primarily due to China being in the thick of it.

Having said that, our achievements though late are commendable. As to the quality, can't really comment about it though Vijayinder Thakur has raised good points here ( compare the weight of the Agni -V & it's payload with its contemporaries) but you're right about him being an interested party with his own agenda.

PS - is there any official confirmation about the 650 kms range that's been reported in the media for SMART. PKS has repeatedly been pointing out that the range wouldn't exceed 50 kms with plenty of reasons why a 650 kms range is pretty useless apart from pointing out that contemporary designs by other navies too use something similar. Not that PKS is always right but the reasons he provides does make sense.

What makes u so sure about the agni 5's proper weight and payload?..any official documents or in service personnel saying them?if u have pls post

 

[_Anonymous_]

What makes u so sure about the agni 5's proper weight and payload?..any official documents or in service personnel saying them?if u have pls post

A simple primer. You could have done this as well. Compare the range, payload & weight of Agni V to it's contemporaries.

Comparison of ICBMs - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[_Anonymous_]

Not time period but limited content. No need to speculate when you have actual information.

Limited content is as per our agreement. Did anyone prevent us from developing the ramjet per se for other applications is my question. When did we actually take up its development & where are we now on this?

Yes and Yes. All soviet design.

Limited sources point to hard to master. Hard to master means it takes a long time. The point was in front of you.

So, in the event what exactly are we debating here when I agreed to your points.

 

[Ashwin]

Limited content is as per our agreement. Did anyone prevent us from developing the ramjet per se for other applications is my question.

Yes, no priority requirements. Most are met by Brahmos. Can't make a clone.

 

[TARGET]

Look up the TL of the Brahmos & how long did it take us to develop various components of it viz seeker, booster & propulsion systems. FYI - we've still not developed the ramjet engine & it's about 18 years since we've inducted the 1st Brahmos. That should give you a fair idea.

You could refer to the Nirbhay too. We began preliminary work on it in 2010 & we've just about developed the Manik turbofan which isn't a mature time tested product by any yardstick.

When we are talking about the Brahmos cruise missile, we should understand we build the world's no1 supersonic cruise missile. which can be launched from all 3 Platforms, so to do that we would have spent a good amount of time. Maybe indigenization was not the priority to the user. we talk about indigenization % when we have a stable system... if not we might have faced similar issues like LCA Tejas due to the Kaveri engine program.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Yes, no priority requirements. Most are met by Brahmos. Can't make a clone.

Can't make a clone & prohibited from / can't develop a ramjet are two different things. In the event, why are we developing the ramjet now?

 

[bille ka vut]

A simple primer. You could have done this as well. Compare the range, payload & weight of Agni V to it's contemporaries.

Comparison of ICBMs - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

U must be joking right now.Are u taking wiki figures for real?...SFC guys are way too secretive to reveal the exact range,payload and weight about our missiles.Am i saying that we are already on par with the likes of russia and US? No.p but all the so called available no are def unrealiable about our BM's.If i remember correctly even the chinks were claiming we are understating A5's range by atleast 3k km's.
That being said if its just ur opinion then i have nothing to say and ive already said mine so...

 

[_Anonymous_]

U must be joking right now.Are u taking wiki figures for real?...

Which is why I posted a disclaimer right in the beginning if you've observed. I said it's a good primer.

SFC guys are way too secretive to reveal the exact range,payload and weight about our missiles.Am i saying that we are already on par with the likes of russia and US? No.p but all the so called available no are def unrealiable about our BM's.If i remember correctly even the chinks were claiming we are understating A5's range by atleast 3k km's

In case you haven't noticed the range for the Agni there is mentioned in terms of a bandwidth. It says 5-8000 kms. Besides, while Wiki may not be the most accurate source of information, do you think they'd get it so wrong as to be a completely unreliable source of information. Let's give credit where it is due.

Compare the weight of the Agni 5 to it's contemporaries. Are you suggesting that the weight of Agni 5 reported in Wikipedia & other open source information at 50 tons + is way off the mark? If so, in your understanding what's the weight of this missile ? 30 tons? 35 tons ? Pls come up with a credible source to back up your statement then.

 

[hellbent]

Which is why I posted a disclaimer right in the beginning if you've observed. I said it's a good primer.


In case you haven't noticed the range for the Agni there is mentioned in terms of a bandwidth. It says 5-8000 kms. Besides, while Wiki may not be the most accurate source of information, do you think they'd get it so wrong as to be a completely unreliable source of information. Let's give credit where it is due.

Compare the weight of the Agni 5 to it's contemporaries. Are you suggesting that the weight of Agni 5 reported in Wikipedia & other open source information at 50 tons + is way off the mark? If so, in your understanding what's the weight of this missile ? 30 tons? 35 tons ? Pls come up with a credible source to back up your statement then.

On a different note

Wiki has no credibility whatsoever , the earlier we Indians understand it the better , especially when it comes to indian content . Its a left liberal cesspit. Cherry picking would only harm us .

 

[bille ka vut]

Which is why I posted a disclaimer right in the beginning if you've observed. I said it's a good primer.


In case you haven't noticed the range for the Agni there is mentioned in terms of a bandwidth. It says 5-8000 kms. Besides, while Wiki may not be the most accurate source of information, do you think they'd get it so wrong as to be a completely unreliable source of information. Let's give credit where it is due.

Compare the weight of the Agni 5 to it's contemporaries. Are you suggesting that the weight of Agni 5 reported in Wikipedia & other open source information at 50 tons + is way off the mark? If so, in your understanding what's the weight of this missile ? 30 tons? 35 tons ? Pls come up with a credible source to back up your statement then.

Oh i have no idea about it weight but unless some of those wiki pedia experts(exfarts?) Are using some kind of tech that tells them about a missiles weight just by looking at picture they are obviously just speculating.sure u could be right but u could also be way off the mark .

 

[Saaho]

Actually both the HSDTV & SMART aren't new concepts or technologies to speak off. The West attempted work on Hypersonic & supersonic missiles in the 70's & gave up. It's only in recent times that they've accelerated work on it primarily due to China being in the thick of it.

Just to set the record straight, hypersonic is the wrong term. Achieving hypersonic flight is not the question -- either via a glider or otherwise, it is not what is important about HSTDV. The critical part was a kerosene based SCRAMjet that was sustained for whatever seconds it was and produced a net thurst.

Sustaining hypersonic combustion is VERY hard. VERY VERY hard. Producing net thrust is YET HARDER. To give you an idea, Russians tried something like this in 90s but they were NOT able to sustain combustion and produce thurst. Americans BOUGHT their experimental setup and improved it to finallly produce a net thrust in 2004 or so.

So, yes, India producing net thrust in 2016 (ISRO) is a good start.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1316631937897820161

 

[_Anonymous_]

Oh i have no idea about it weight but unless some of those wiki pedia experts(exfarts?) Are using some kind of tech that tells them about a missiles weight just by looking at picture they are obviously just speculating.sure u could be right but u could also be way off the mark .

So, in the event you neither posted anything to bolster your case not did you post anything to refute that post I've put up from Wiki. All you did was post your allegations for whatever it's worth. Like RaGa & the Rafale saga.

Good going.