Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

[Chain Smoker]

Welcome to the forum. Keep posting.

The Mk1 UT is a newish project. The UT borrows tech heavily from the Mk1 but there are newer bits of technology coming about.

Remember the Astra Mk-1 was supposed to have a IR seeker based version. Design optimization studies of the IR guided Astra proved that the Mk-1's airframe is not the most efficient for the role of CCM. Which is why the IAF is going ahead with the ASRAAM as the new CCM. The Astra Mk-1 with the IR seeker will be a medium to long range missile.

DRDO is also making the RF guided VL-SRSAM for the Navy. Although the VL-SRSAM draws heavily from the Astra Mk-1, it also has design inputs from other DRDO SAMs like the QRSAM. There is a significant possibility that the Navy would be interested in an IR guided VL-SRSAM too. Imagine if the airframe of the RF guided & IR guided VL-SRSAM were the same. That would mean the same manufacturing line can be used to make the missiles & the same VLMs can be used for both the missiles. Obviously it makes sense for the Navy.

Now imagine the IR guided Astra, IR guided VL-SRSAM & the RF guided VLSRSAM had the same airframe. That's what DRDO is attempting to do with the Astra Mk-1 UT. I read somewhere that UT stands for Upgraded Tail. The key difference between the Astra Mk-1 & the VL-SRSAM is that the later has JVC, the former doesn't. That's not the only difference but the most important one. They are going to put a JVC on the Astra Mk-1's tail.

It is important to remember that this is still a design study. The requirements for a IR guided SAM & a IR guided AAM are different. Thus if the inclusion of the JVC somehow depletes aerodynamic performance in AAM role then nothing may come out of this project .Still it is encouraging to see DRDO trying to standardize production lines & launch systems.

Yes the new torpedo is called "Jalastra". It is a variation of the ALWT. It will have longer operational range at a higher speed.

Yes & so is the XR-SAM. TBRL has been ground testing the booster for the XR-SAM. It seems the 1st flight isn't far from now.

Interesting. I didn't know this.

The radar BEL delivered is a fire control radar, not a multifunction radar. Since the ships that will integrate the VL-SRSAM has very different primary radars going for a dedicated FCR is a good option.

DRDO is going to integrate the VL-SRSAM to the MF-STAR. But what about ships that don't have the MF-STAR ? This new radar from BEL is for those ships.

I agree about the Brahmos-2.

I don't agree with the NG. That has been in the works for a while & has received funding from the Navy. I don't know if the IA and IAF are funding it though.

1. A2A missiles can have jet vanes like MICA.


2. There was one report from hemant kumar rout that astra mk2 will have TVC.

First test of air-to-air missile Astra Mk II likely on February 18

As many as 8,000 people from at least seven hamlets will be shifted to temporary shelters ahead of the test.

www.google.com

3. Indian Airforce has confirmed interest in BRAHMOS-NG missiles for 400 in numbers costing around Rs 8,000 crore to be delivered in next five years.

 

[Gautam]

1. A2A missiles can have jet vanes like MICA.

Sure they can. But how much weight addition will that cause ? If we reduce the weight of the vanes will they be able to survive the ablation damages ? There are always questions like that. Hence the need for testing.

2. There was one report from hemant kumar rout that astra mk2 will have TVC.

First test of air-to-air missile Astra Mk II likely on February 18

As many as 8,000 people from at least seven hamlets will be shifted to temporary shelters ahead of the test.

www.google.com

What kind of TVC ? Jet vane or nozzle actuation ? Since most our missiles use jet vane control it makes sense to go with that. That way the Mk-1 UT project's results can be used for Mk2

3. Indian Airforce has confirmed interest in BRAHMOS-NG missiles for 400 in numbers costing around Rs 8,000 crore to be delivered in next five years.

So IN & IAF are in. Anything from IA ?

 

[Arctic Wolf]

Are there any updates on the K-4 and K-5 SLBMs?

 

[Gautam]

Anti-tank missile completes all trials

By Dinakar Peri
NEW DELHI, SEPTEMBER 19, 2021 22:18 IST

Defence mode: The Air Force had asked for the feasibility of integrating the Helina on the Light Combat Helicopter.

Process for issuing Acceptance of Necessity by Army for Helina has started, says Project Director​

The helicopter-launched Nag Anti-Tank Guided Missile (ATGM), Helina, being developed indigenously, has completed all trials and the process for issuing of Acceptance of Necessity (AoN) by the Army has started, said Sachin Sood, Project Director of Helina and Dhruvastra at the Defence Research and Development Laboratory (DRDL) Hyderabad, a laboratory of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

“The launcher and missile are ready. There are some Human-Machine Interface [HMI] to be realised, which are going on now,” Dr. Sood told The Hindu.

While the cost estimate was yet to be done, each missile was expected to cost under ₹1 crore, and around 500 missiles and 40 launchers would be required initially, he added.



Once the AoN is issued, the Request for Proposal (RFP) would be issued. Some firing trials would be done from the first production lot by the Army at a later stage.

Helina is a third-generation fire-and-forget class ATGM mounted on an indigenous Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH), and has a minimum range of 500 metres and a maximum range of 7 kilometres. All issues with the minimum range had been sorted out and the integration with other weapons on the platform was over, said Dr. Sood.

Stating that the Air Force had asked for the feasibility of integrating the Helina on the soon-to-be inducted Light Combat Helicopter (LCH), Dr. Sood said this would be done and would bring in economies of scale in the production of the missile. “There is also very good export potential,” Dr. Sood added.

Anti-tank missile completes all trials

 

[Lolwa]

Sure they can. But how much weight addition will that cause ? If we reduce the weight of the vanes will they be able to survive the ablation damages ? There are always questions like that. Hence the need for testing.

What kind of TVC ? Jet vane or nozzle actuation ? Since most our missiles use jet vane control it makes sense to go with that. That way the Mk-1 UT project's results can be used for Mk2

So IN & IAF are in. Anything from IA ?

I feel they will be added to the rocket force.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Anti-tank missile completes all trials

By Dinakar Peri
NEW DELHI, SEPTEMBER 19, 2021 22:18 IST
View attachment 21057
Defence mode: The Air Force had asked for the feasibility of integrating the Helina on the Light Combat Helicopter.

Process for issuing Acceptance of Necessity by Army for Helina has started, says Project Director​

The helicopter-launched Nag Anti-Tank Guided Missile (ATGM), Helina, being developed indigenously, has completed all trials and the process for issuing of Acceptance of Necessity (AoN) by the Army has started, said Sachin Sood, Project Director of Helina and Dhruvastra at the Defence Research and Development Laboratory (DRDL) Hyderabad, a laboratory of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

“The launcher and missile are ready. There are some Human-Machine Interface [HMI] to be realised, which are going on now,” Dr. Sood told The Hindu.

While the cost estimate was yet to be done, each missile was expected to cost under ₹1 crore, and around 500 missiles and 40 launchers would be required initially, he added.

View attachment 21058

Once the AoN is issued, the Request for Proposal (RFP) would be issued. Some firing trials would be done from the first production lot by the Army at a later stage.

Helina is a third-generation fire-and-forget class ATGM mounted on an indigenous Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH), and has a minimum range of 500 metres and a maximum range of 7 kilometres. All issues with the minimum range had been sorted out and the integration with other weapons on the platform was over, said Dr. Sood.

Stating that the Air Force had asked for the feasibility of integrating the Helina on the soon-to-be inducted Light Combat Helicopter (LCH), Dr. Sood said this would be done and would bring in economies of scale in the production of the missile. “There is also very good export potential,” Dr. Sood added.

Anti-tank missile completes all trials

Ah. Finally start the mass production for LCH army variant.

 

[jetray]

cost under ₹1 crore,

why does a locally produced missile cost so much? At this rate it looks it is cheaper to buy a consumer car , load it up with fertilizers and roll it down the enemy lines.

 

[Sathya]

Hope we ll start developing guide d rockets too...

 

[Ankit Kumar]

why does a locally produced missile cost so much? At this rate it looks it is cheaper to buy a consumer car , load it up with fertilizers and roll it down the enemy lines.

Its slightly higher for the first batch. Army is going to have 100+ Rudras and around the same numbers of LCH. So a much larger order awaits. Once that is realised, the cost will drop.

Hope we ll start developing guide d rockets too...

Navy should get an insight on the similar system once MH60Rs get into operations. Once that happens, other arms too will want similar capabilities.

 

[Gautam]

why does a locally produced missile cost so much?

Initial batch. The money involved isn't just for the missiles & launchers. But also for setting up the production line & other non-recurring costs. The next batches won't be as pricey.

At this rate it looks it is cheaper to buy a consumer car , load it up with fertilizers and roll it down the enemy lines.

LOL
You want the Army to use VB-IEDs ?!?!

Hope we ll start developing guide d rockets too...

I got my hopes up when I saw the IIR & laser guided rockets VEM was developing.



But nobody was interested in buying them. I don't know if they are still working on these rockets. If VEM & Solar Industries work together they can probably develop a lot of the guided munitions we need. Most of the lower end of the capability spectrum can be filled by these guys.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1318816822209269760

Its pointless to get the DRDO to make everything. But the services think otherwise.

 

[Lolwa]

Hope we ll start developing guide d rockets too...

We have requirement of three things
1.) Spike Nlos equivalent (25km)
2.) Brimstone equivalent (30-60km)
3.) MAM-T,MAM-L micromuniton equivalent(8-60km)
All our A2G requirements will be fulfilled if they are integrated with our drones,LCH,Rudra,AJT Hawk and Tejas...

Its slightly higher for the first batch. Army is going to have 100+ Rudras and around the same numbers of LCH. So a much larger order awaits. Once that is realised, the cost will drop.

Navy should get an insight on the similar system once MH60Rs get into operations. Once that happens, other arms too will want similar capabilities.

Does the Rudra have the capability to carry troops??

You want the Army to use VB-IEDs ?!?!

Honestly not a bad idea suicide UGV's. But our terrain won't allow it. Though they will be exceptionally useful against the Chinese

 

[Ashwin]

We have requirement of three things

You can't make up requirement based on what's available in the market. Services has to say that.

 

[Lolwa]

You can't make up requirement based on what's available in the market. Services has to say that.

Obviously but the services would be facing similar type of munitions. Since the turks will definitely start supplying smart munitions to the Pakistanis. And we aren't buying either the spike Nlos or the Brimstone. And we have nothing close to similar systems in armed forces forget the platforms. I doubt our herons can even launch spike NLOS. But integrating munitions like this on the tejas and lch will give us huge breathing space for the rest of the air force for A2A operations..

 

[Chain Smoker]

We have requirement of three things
1.) Spike Nlos equivalent (25km)
2.) Brimstone equivalent (30-60km)
3.) MAM-T,MAM-L micromuniton equivalent(8-60km)
All our A2G requirements will be fulfilled if they are integrated with our drones,LCH,Rudra,AJT Hawk and Tejas...

Does the Rudra have the capability to carry troops??

Honestly not a bad idea suicide UGV's. But our terrain won't allow it. Though they will be exceptionally useful against the Chinese

We already have SANT.

 

[Ashwin]

Obviously but the services would be facing similar type of munitions. Since the turks will definitely start supplying smart munitions to the Pakistanis. And we aren't buying either the spike Nlos or the Brimstone. And we have nothing close to similar systems in armed forces forget the platforms. I doubt our herons can even launch spike NLOS. But integrating munitions like this on the tejas and lch will give us huge breathing space for the rest of the air force for A2A operations..

No it's not entirely. Versions of Brimstone and hellfire are developed for anti terror ops over free airspace. Warheads are made smaller to cause less casualties.

Our NLOS comparable is SANT. Which was tested multiple time. Of course, Spike NLOS is one a kind.

We should have answer for AFT-10 which is SANT. Turkish do not bring anything special to the table.

 

[Chain Smoker]

Hopefully we will see this missile entering service after 4 yrs . By that time our attack helicopters will remain tooth less.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1439953731660001289

 

[jetray]

Initial batch. The money involved isn't just for the missiles & launchers. But also for setting up the production line & other non-recurring costs. The next batches won't be as pricey.

shouldn't that be incrementally amortized in the coming years say next 5 years.

LOL
You want the Army to use VB-IEDs ?!?!

economically it makes sense, if our goal is to thwart or delay the enemy all we need to do is create more barriers for their advancement. Old used cheap cars with subsidized fertilizer will more cost effective.
With 1cr per piece missile assuming conservative hit ratio of 50% we will be burning more cash at the end of the day. If the war continues for more than 15 days then it simply becomes unaffordable to keep fighting. Remember at the end of the day there is no profit only a hole in balance sheet which would needs to be patched up from other productive places like agri or infra.

Its slightly higher for the first batch. Army is going to have 100+ Rudras and around the same numbers of LCH. So a much larger order awaits. Once that is realised, the cost will drop.

Hope so, as said we need to amortize these costs in coming years. I think if we can export it and recoup the cost that will be great. At these prices war is an expensive option.

 

[Gautam]

shouldn't that be incrementally amortized in the coming years say next 5 years.

Could've worked better if the initial order was larger & if the economic condition was better.

economically it makes sense, if our goal is to thwart or delay the enemy all we need to do is create more barriers for their advancement. Old used cheap cars with subsidized fertilizer will more cost effective.

The flat plains of Rajasthan might support remote controlled VB-IEDs. The more mountainous terrain of the North can't. Besides there are moral concerns to using civilian vehicles as VB-IEDs. Tactics like these are used by radical yahoos, not professional militaries. If we are to use them we will need specialized UGV for that role.

Kalyani is working on a few UGVs. Maybe we could use those as the platform. They will also be cheaper than civilian vehicles.

With 1cr per piece missile assuming conservative hit ratio of 50% we will be burning more cash at the end of the day. If the war continues for more than 15 days then it simply becomes unaffordable to keep fighting. Remember at the end of the day there is no profit only a hole in balance sheet which would needs to be patched up from other productive places like agri or infra.

Yes, if we are going to war tomorrow we will use the 500 ordered Helinas but not the tens of thousands of other ATGMs that we have. Come on.

Where is that 50% figure coming form ? HeliNa's seeker has the newer 640x512 MWIR sensor, that allows a 4 km lock-on range & SSPK of >90%. The MWIR was first tested in September 2016. If I recall every test of the MWIR sensor has been a success. The initial sensor on the Nag family was the 128x128 LWIR sensor that gave it a lock-on range of 2.5 km & a SSPK of 77%.

I understand the point you are trying to make with the profit/loss argument but still I have to ask. Agriculture is productive ?!?! At which level micro or macro ? If it is so productive shouldn't it become profitable at a macro scale at some point ?

I've never heard of a productive business that require such incredible amounts of subsidies & loan moratoriums/waivers year after year. Which other business have received such continued official largesse from central & state govts ? I understand agriculture is necessary, but productive might be a little too far.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

HELINA is supposedly Army variant while Dhruvastra is IAF variant. @Gautam what are the performance differences?

 

[Chain Smoker]

HELINA is supposedly Army variant while Dhruvastra is IAF variant. @Gautam what are the performance differences?

Dhruvastra is air to surface missile it can carry wide variety of warhead.