Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

[Rajput Lion]

The baseline R-77 was built purely for export. The RuAF eventually bought the improved R-77-1 version.

Imo, the sooner we get the Astra family into service the better. The R-series of AAMs needs to be replaced in wholesale mode ( and we have a huge inventory of them).

Probably turn them into a SAMAR-II SHORAD system, similar to the US NASAMS.

Needs a better box launcher too. Sticking two pylons to the back of a truck and giving it a new name doesn't cut it, imo. Looks so shabby.

Post-Balakot, I was surprised the IAF bought more R-27s and R-77s, despite facing reliability issues during Vayu Shakti exercises. some years ago.

R-27 series still has very good kinematics. The ET variant coupled with MKI's OLS-30M is a silent killer. Earlier we bought R-27s from Ukraine but post Balakot we bought improved version of both R-27s and R-77(-1) from Russia. As per some rumours, we might have bought few R-37Ms as well!

Anyways, now that our Astra program has started to bear fruits, IAF's dependence on foreign suppliers for BVRAAMs is about to end very soon. Soon there will be "air dominance" in full desi style with desi weapons

 

[Speedster1]

Against modern countermeasures, spoofing the IR seeker of the R-27 series is probably going to be easier than say, a modern IIR-seeker equipped Astra (hypothetical). Russia won't let us tinker with the seeker of the R-27s. Also, the R-27 is rather bulkier than modern gen missiles.

Though small, the IAF's orders for the Astra-1 indicate increasing confidence in local systems.

We should re-purpose the older R-27s to the SAM role for last-ditch base air defence against drone swarms and CMs, imo.

We have huge stocks to run through. A proper box launcher equipped SAMAR-II (with integral EO+ networking) should give us a decent gap-filler SHORAD.

The newer R-27s are probably good for the foreseeable future.

 

[marich01]

Flares are ready indigenous way.

https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/sites/default/files/inline-files/26mmIR_Flare.pdf

https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/sites/default/files/inline-files/50mmIR_Flare06092024.pdf

 

[Rajput Lion]

Against modern countermeasures, spoofing the IR seeker of the R-27 series is probably going to be easier than say, a modern IIR-seeker equipped Astra (hypothetical). Russia won't let us tinker with the seeker of the R-27s. Also, the R-27 is rather bulkier than modern gen missiles.

Though small, the IAF's orders for the Astra-1 indicate increasing confidence in local systems.

We should re-purpose the older R-27s to the SAM role for last-ditch base air defence against drone swarms and CMs, imo.

We have huge stocks to run through. A proper box launcher equipped SAMAR-II (with integral EO+ networking) should give us a decent gap-filler SHORAD.

The newer R-27s are probably good for the foreseeable future.

Unfortunately, as of some latest reports, DRDO has forlorned Astra IR program(as of now). Maybe in-future we develop something like MICA IR. But they have just decided to go with ASRAAM Block 6(an amazing choice) as the standard WVR missile for most IAF jets and are calling it NGCCM.

 

[Gautam]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1832311631080030524

 

[Rajput Lion]

@marich01
Any info regarding Astra IR programme? In-case we've dropped this project then in that case I'm really looking forward for one more imported IIR missile, i.e., MICA-NG IR. This missile will supposedly have 30%+ more range than current MICA IR's 60 km. So around 80-100kms. Integrating it with our Rafales and MKIs would give us a formidable capacity against PLAAF. Astra IR was supposed to be just that.

 

[Asterion Moloc]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1832311631080030524

View attachment 36118

13-12-16 on top left? format looks like date but not sure it was from 2016

 

[Asterion Moloc]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1832295133838201062

Terrible numbers !

What is the issue for such low life time of AAMS in general, is it related to battery tech? or seeker? which degrades such drastically when carried on aircrafts.

I feel battery might face issues in general

 

[marich01]

@marich01
Any info regarding Astra IR programme? In-case we've dropped this project then in that case I'm really looking forward for one more imported IIR missile, i.e., MICA-NG IR. This missile will supposedly have 30%+ more range than current MICA IR's 60 km. So around 80-100kms. Integrating it with our Rafales and MKIs would give us a formidable capacity against PLAAF. Astra IR was supposed to be just that.

I lost the Pac document, but as we know local industry lacks suitable IR sekker, dome etc making skill and tech. DRDO tech only maturing not sure. So for testing phase also they need to clear a pac for import of the major components for the seeker making, Until proper IT seeker facility and production etc is developed within, it is likely not sustainable.

Akash-NG:
View attachment 36117

Spaceteks jigs.

 

[Speedster1]

Unfortunately, as of some latest reports, DRDO has forlorned Astra IR program(as of now). Maybe in-future we develop something like MICA IR. But they have just decided to go with ASRAAM Block 6(an amazing choice) as the standard WVR missile for most IAF jets and are calling it NGCCM.

Don't we have an indigenous program for next-gen WVRAAM on par with/better than PL-10?
I was under the impression NGCCM was a local 5G WVR program while ASRAAM was purchased to mainly arm the Jags and now the LCA since the Python-5 is out of the picture.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Don't we have an indigenous program for next-gen WVRAAM on par with/better than PL-10?
I was under the impression NGCCM was a local 5G WVR program while ASRAAM was purchased to mainly arm the Jags and now the LCA since the Python-5 is out of the picture.

Unfortunately we have dropped the plan to develop IR version of Astra(as of now) and have decided to develop all new IR WVR missile. But till then NGCCM is nothing but ASRAAM Block 6:

In service with the IAF, the ASRAAM is known as the New Generation Close Combat Missile (NGCCM).

Source: MBDA outlines Indian missile investment plan

 

[Ashwin]

Unfortunately we have dropped the plan to develop IR version of Astra(as of now) and have decided to develop all new IR WVR missile. But till then NGCCM is nothing but ASRAAM Block 6:



Source: MBDA outlines Indian missile investment plan

It will be impossible to make IR CCM from Astra airframe. Dimensions would need to be smaller and weight would be halved.

They were going for an IR BVR missile like the R-27T, not a CCM. I think it's still viable and possible.

 

[Rajput Lion]

It will be impossible to make IR CCM from Astra airframe. Dimensions would need to be smaller and weight would be halved.

Yup. Astra MK1 can pull 40G at the rails. Most WVR IR missiles can pull over 50G(some even 60G) at the rails. So maybe that's why they're looking for a new missile with more compact frame for enhanced maneuverability.

They were going for an IR BVR missile like the R-27T, not a CCM. I think it's still viable and possible.

They should have definitely pursued it. Astra 2-IR with IIR seeker and dual-pulse rocket motor would have been our MICA-NG IR equivalent(even superior). A missile like R-27ET but with data-links and LOAL(R-27ET apparently hasn't got it) is very important in this age of low-RCS targets and broaband jamming. I am still hoping that we pursue such a missile.

 

[marich01]

Short range missile to be tested today

 

[Gautam]

View attachment VL-srsam.mp4

 

[Multicellular man]

BTW when are we integrating astra missile with mig 29s?

 

[mamiam23]

So somewhat related to missiles, how is that the israeli LORA is able to haul a half ton payload to 500km while only weighing in 1.6 Tons. Almost feel its like a magic or there is some hidden conditions or they had developed propellent so advanced and dense. Can someone answer me because the next tactical level missile i know of is Chinese DF-11, Iskander, Pralay, Korean Hyunmoo-2 all have some above 4 to 6 Tons weight with similar performance. I can't yet believe that the LORA is able to haul 500kg to 500km. Are they doing marketing jhumla? maybe the real warhead weight to reach 500km is only like 100 kg?

 

[Gautam]

I can't yet believe that the LORA is able to haul 500kg to 500km. Are they doing marketing jhumla? maybe the real warhead weight to reach 500km is only like 100 kg?

Correct.

The figures mentioned for LORA are max range & max payload figures. But you can get max range only with a significantly reduced payload & max payload with a significantly reduced range. With 570 kg payload, LORA's range is reduced to just 90 kms.

Pralay can do 150 km with 1 ton payload & 500 km with 500 km payload.

So, in an apple-to-apple contest where both missiles carry a 500 kg warhead. Pralay can do 500 kms & LORA can do ~100-120 km. About 5 times difference in range. This is why Pralay weighs 5 ton & LORA weighs 1.6 tons.

 

[Speedster1]

israeli LORA is able to haul a half ton payload to 500km

This is a threshold for MTCR to be triggered which means no export is allowed to non-member countries. So likely marketing hype imo.

Though India is an MTCR member, I doubt the US would permit license production of LORA in India, if it were N-capable.

Pralay can do 150 km with 1 ton payload & 500 km with 500 km payload.

Any news of the Prahar missile derived from AAD that was being pitched as a bridge between MLRS and TBMs? Has it been dropped now that DRDO is extending the Pinaka line to 300km?

 

[Gautam]

Though India is an MTCR member, I doubt the US would permit license production of LORA in India, if it were N-capable.

LORA is a large sized artillery rocket. There is no pathbreaking tech here for us. US would probably get involved in this if this was happening in the 1960s.

Any news of the Prahar missile derived from AAD that was being pitched as a bridge between MLRS and TBMs? Has it been dropped now that DRDO is extending the Pinaka line to 300km?

Probably dropped. No new tests in 6 years now. Some news article claimed that the Army wasn't happy about the range of the Prahar.