Indian Nuclear Attack Submarine (Project 77) - Updates & Discussions

[randomradio]

The IN would have preferred to lease a US SSN (likely LA class) had it not turned down the request. iirc, we did make a similar request in the 1980s too (with the same result) before we signed with the Soviets for the Chakra-1.

Despite our status as ' strategic partner on par with Japan', the US would never give us naval tech that could 'upset the balance of power in the region' as the DSCA calls it.

In any case, all this talk about 'weaning India away from Russian MIC' started only after Ukraine. Before that, several joint development intiatives (one of which was an air launched drone iirc) went nowhere.

It just so happened that all our clearances for American tech came during the Trump-Biden era. And we are still denied SSN tech from the US, even core engine tech, but the French are more open in these areas. The West doesn't have the US alone.

Problem is the IA often sets impossible requirements most manufacturers can't match - for example, 25t MTOW- which is really no improvement at all over the previous gen BMP-2

They will move with the program based on the tech offered during RFP. Just 'cause they have a 25T limit doesn't mean it will become grounds for rejection if all vehicles exceed that limit. In MMRCA, not a single aircraft met all requirements.

Quite right, no one was to blame.

Sevmash didn't have carrier building experience (some truth there). The IN, with all its years of carrier aviation experience, didn't have the acumen to know that a glorified helicopter carrier mothballed for decades couldn't possibly be converted for conventional ops for as low as $900M. MiG didn't know their 29K wasn't fit for sustained carrier ops.

Name one long range deployment Vikky has undertaken since she arrived in 2013.

Gorky doesn't leave the IOR due to political and strategic needs, not because it cannot sail to the US or Japan. Plus any overseas deployment is expensive. Nor do we want to take a Russian carrier to a Western port.

The only port calls made were in Colombo and Male. So it's a political decision.

The US has always used arms sales as leverage in its dealings with India. The deeper we integrate into a Western security framework, the lesser our ability to resist pressure will get.

That's an advantage to us. We will be in the process of catching up to their tech in all areas by then and they will want more deals.

Call it creative accounting. Vikky did for Sevmash what MKI did for Sukhoi - brought the back from the brink of collapse. No penalties were imposed for the sake of dosti. Since then, we have switched to G2G deals when dealing with Russia.

Yeah. That's where Sevmash made their profits. The upkeep of the carrier too.

Anyway, pretty much all deals with Russia were GTG deals from the 90s onwards. We play the tender game with the West.

 

[Gautam]

Navy is building a new VLF comms facility at Vikarabad, Telangana. To be fully operational in 2-3 years. Interestingly the article mentions the following:

Moreover, the PM-led cabinet committee on security on Oct 9 also cleared the long-pending Rs 40,000 crore 'Project 77' to construct two nuclear-powered attack submarines (called SSN in naval parlance). It will take 10-12 years to build these SSNs, with 190 MW reactor and displacement of 9,800-tonne, meant for conventional (non-nuclear warfare).

Navy setting up base to control submarines on long-range patrols | India News - Times of India

 

[Bon Plan]

This could be a mistake confused with S5. All other reports note it as 6,000 tons (if mentioned). It is logical to be of the Arihant class size because of the size limitations of SBC. The new, bigger building will be used for the S5 class.

Indeed.
10.000 T for a first SSN seems high.
In the USA case, the main threat is now China, ie they have to cross the pacific ocean to fight, so they need a bigger sub to have a time on battlefield and weapons load enough. It's not the case of India, whose main ennemis are near.

Except if IN intend to use the same nuc reactor on deterrence subs and SSN.

 

[mamiam23]

Indeed.
10.000 T for a first SSN seems high.
In the USA case, the main threat is now China, ie they have to cross the pacific ocean to fight, so they need a bigger sub to have a time on battlefield and weapons load enough. It's not the case of India, whose main ennemis are near.

Except if IN intend to use the same nuc reactor on deterrence subs and SSN.

The French system seems to integrate the steam generator and reactor core, eliminating the need for separate coolant pumps, unlike the American approach, which uses two separate steam turbines: one for propulsion and another for power generation. Essentially, the French replace the first propulsion turbine with an electric motor, while for the second (power generation), instead of using a separate turbine, they appear to combine the reactor cooler and the steam generator into one system. This integration simplifies the design by reducing the number of components involved. Am I right? In American System, we have Reactor, Cooler, 2 Turbines. In French System, we have Reactor, Integrated Cooler-Turbine, Electric Motor.

 

[Bon Plan]

The French system seems to integrate the steam generator and reactor core, eliminating the need for separate coolant pumps, unlike the American approach, which uses two separate steam turbines: one for propulsion and another for power generation. Essentially, the French replace the first propulsion turbine with an electric motor, while for the second (power generation), instead of using a separate turbine, they appear to combine the reactor cooler and the steam generator into one system. This integration simplifies the design by reducing the number of components involved. Am I right? In American System, we have Reactor, Cooler, 2 Turbines. In French System, we have Reactor, Integrated Cooler-Turbine, Electric Motor.

I don't know for US design. But it may not be the sole explanation for a 10.000T sub.

Between the tiny Rubis SSN (+/- 2500 tons) and the >8000 T Virginia, there are space for a more balanced Suffren (4500 t) or something in the 6000 tons.

 

[Amarante]

The French system seems to integrate the steam generator and reactor core, eliminating the need for separate coolant pumps, unlike the American approach, which uses two separate steam turbines: one for propulsion and another for power generation. Essentially, the French replace the first propulsion turbine with an electric motor, while for the second (power generation), instead of using a separate turbine, they appear to combine the reactor cooler and the steam generator into one system. This integration simplifies the design by reducing the number of components involved. Am I right?

Yes you are

vs:

source: Ending the production of HEU for naval reactors, The Nonproliferation Review, Spring 2001

 

[mamiam23]

Yes you are
View attachment 37157
vs:

source: Ending the production of HEU for naval reactors, The Nonproliferation Review, Spring 2001

Thanks for Information. Generally French SSNs are less prominent but their performance and stealth can't be questioned. The USA and UK one along with Russian ones make most chatter. I don't have any doubt that French are on par with UK and USA regarding Stealth. One question is can you say French are silent than American ones since this setup reduces the no of moving parts and those noisy turbines? How would you rate Suffren class against Astute Class or Virginia Class or even Seawolf Class. Second question is that somewhere I read that because it is LEU they can combine the steam generator with reactor core which is not possible with HEU Core?

 

[Speedster1]

And we are still denied SSN tech from the US, even core engine tech, but the French are more open in these areas. The West doesn't have the US alone.

No Western country would defy a US veto, especially when it comes to N tech sharing, India's MTCR/NSG status not withstanding. Don't know if French N- subs have any US-supplied components but if yes, those could be grounds for a possible veto.

Nor do we want to take a Russian carrier to a Western port.

If she can participate in exercises with Western navies, there's no OPSEC reasons preventing Vikky from doing long-range missions imo.

I'd say problems persist with her propulsion plant (faulty Chinese-supplied insulation, for example) still persist plus the air wing likely has problems of its own.

One only has to look at the miseries of the Kuzenetsov to gauge how effective Russia's carrier maintenance philosophy truly is.

Yeah. That's where Sevmash made their profits. The upkeep of the carrier too.

We were suckered into buying a lemon. Beguiled is a better word, I'd say. We'll continue to pay the price for this monumental mistake for as long as Vikky remains in service.

 

[Speedster1]

First image of PLAN Type 09IIIB SSN...... Very refined streamline Hull I must say.... Has a suffren look. Only time will tell how noisy this Chinese junk is.

That image could very well be CGI. The Chinese don't usually share up close images of new equipment, especially N-sub.

 

[randomradio]

No Western country would defy a US veto, especially when it comes to N tech sharing, India's MTCR/NSG status not withstanding. Don't know if French N- subs have any US-supplied components but if yes, those could be grounds for a possible veto.

Knowing the French, there may not be any American components that are not replaceable. Anyway, the French do not have additional SSNs to spare.

If she can participate in exercises with Western navies, there's no OPSEC reasons preventing Vikky from doing long-range missions imo.

I'd say problems persist with her propulsion plant (faulty Chinese-supplied insulation, for example) still persist plus the air wing likely has problems of its own.

One only has to look at the miseries of the Kuzenetsov to gauge how effective Russia's carrier maintenance philosophy truly is.

Kuznetsov is really old. The insulation problem was fixed before delivery. It hit its full speed of 32 knots.

Anyway, I think deployment is political.

We were suckered into buying a lemon. Beguiled is a better word, I'd say. We'll continue to pay the price for this monumental mistake for as long as Vikky remains in service.

The IN is happy with it. They asked Sevmash to provide maintenance service for 40 years instead of the previously agreed upon 20 years.

 

[South block]

That image could very well be CGI. The Chinese don't usually share up close images of new equipment, especially N-sub.

Yes you maybe right..... Most of Chinese equipment when examined closely turn out to be Massive junk. They intentionally hide there J-11, J-20 etc radar antenna claiming it to be best AESA on planet & only show it drawings........ Since showing it for real will expose theme completely.

This chinese top of the submarine tech that Porkistan is buying..... Straight out of 60s & early 70s.....no wonder they always post blurry picture taken from a potato

 

[Amarante]

(…). Generally French SSNs are less prominent but their performance and stealth can't be questioned. The USA and UK one along with Russian ones make most chatter. (…)

Yes they do:

(…) One question is can you say French are silent than American ones since this setup reduces the no of moving parts and those noisy turbines?

That would make sense. The position of the steam generator above the reactor core favours natural convection operation, i.e. without starting the pumps.

What's more, the K15 reactor fitted to the new generation of French SSNs (the Suffren class) is made up of a nuclear boiler extrapolated from the K48 48 MW thermal boilers of the Rubis class, and a digital control system has been adopted with the specific aim of achieving even greater acoustic discretion.

I have no doubt that French submarines are extremely discreet.

(…) Second question is that somewhere I read that because it is LEU they can combine the steam generator with reactor core which is not possible with HEU Core?

I don't know if it's impossible with the HEU. But the position of the steam generator above the reactor adds to the compactness of the whole.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Navy is building a new VLF comms facility at Vikarabad, Telangana. To be fully operational in 2-3 years. Interestingly the article mentions the following:



Navy setting up base to control submarines on long-range patrols | India News - Times of India

So is the matter on whether the forthcoming SSNs will be another iteration of the Arihant class or will it be the equivalent of an Akula class finally settled between amateur experts here or do we see another few rounds of furious debate ?

 

[Gautam]

So is the matter on whether the forthcoming SSNs will be another iteration of the Arihant class or will it be the equivalent of an Akula class finally settled between amateur experts here or do we see another few rounds of furious debate ?

 

[mamiam23]

So is the matter on whether the forthcoming SSNs will be another iteration of the Arihant class or will it be the equivalent of an Akula class finally settled between amateur experts here or do we see another few rounds of furious debate ?

So its 9800 tons as stated in article? I wonder how the speed suffers, maybe it can do 30-Knots only like British ones and not 35-Knots like American ones. I think max speed of 30 knots above is not that necessary as any usage at that will make lot of noise. Also for design, we have to see, whether they gonna do hard on r&d of a design from scratch or do jhumla on Akula class.

 

[South block]

So its 9800 tons as stated in article? I wonder how the speed suffers, maybe it can do 30-Knots only like British ones and not 35-Knots like American ones. I think max speed of 30 knots above is not that necessary as any usage at that will make lot of noise. Also for design, we have to see, whether they gonna do hard on r&d of a design from scratch or do jhumla on Akula class.

9800 tons surfaced or submerged ?

 

[Gautam]

9800 tons surfaced or submerged ?

Probably surfaced. Remember Arihant's 6000 ton or S4's 7000-ton displacement figures are also surfaced displacement.

 

[South block]

9800 surfaced displacement means this sub is in same class as Severodvinsk.

Length will be probably around 130 to 135 Mt with double or 1 & a half Hull design with later being highly likely.

 

[_Anonymous_]

View attachment 37161

Ah ! The late Dame Maggie Smith. What a fine actress she was . Passed away recently too .

Nothing's settled ?! What does Stenographer Shishir of HT or anyone from HT have to say ? If he's declared it or someone from HT , it's official.

 

[_Anonymous_]

So its 9800 tons as stated in article? I wonder how the speed suffers, maybe it can do 30-Knots only like British ones and not 35-Knots like American ones. I think max speed of 30 knots above is not that necessary as any usage at that will make lot of noise. Also for design, we have to see, whether they gonna do hard on r&d of a design from scratch or do jhumla on Akula class.

Refer the specs of Akula from Wiki . Add +/- 10-15% to the specs listed there & viola you have all the specs of the Indian SSN. If you need more tutelage on how to conjure up figures please consider consulting RST. He's a past master at this stuff. In another life he's sold ice to Eskimos.