Stealth, of course. Non-mag hulls are hard to pick up for MAD sensors on MPAs. In the open seas, a non-mag sub is difficult to catch.
Along the coast, passive seabed sensors could make it easier for sub hunters to triangulate the subs position.
Indian Nuclear Attack Submarine (Project 77) - Updates & Discussions
- Thread starter Ashwin
- Start date
-
- Tags
- ins chakra project 77
Along the coast, passive seabed sensors could make it easier for sub hunters to triangulate the subs position.
The unit cost of the sub is a little less than $1B. So there's a lot more in the contract. Chakra 2 cost $700M.
Yasen is still in production, the Russians have no interest in freeing the line up for export. They wanna continue building the next in class after that too. The best we can do is push a request for a used Yasen when it shows up for MLU. They have interest in keeping us in since we are paying a frig-load of money for just 1 sub relative to how much it actually costs them. And we definitely need a Chakra 4.
They have multiple SSN production lines. They can build up to 4 every year.
The Nuclear Submarine Building Capacity of China’s Bohai Shipyard
The Bohai Shipyard in Huludao, part of China's CSSC, plays a key role in nuclear submarine construction, featuring advanced facilities like drydocks, pontoon launch systems, and modular shipbuilding methods.
www.orfonline.org
We have to assume the Chinese will build SSNs like they did the Type 054A and Type 052D. So we can expect 30-40 new SSNs by 2040, possibly Type 095s, enough to match the American Virginias. We will have less than 6 within that time.
It's not a defeatist mentality, they are playing the game more than a decade ahead of India.
We will see the same with carriers once they standardize with the Type 004. With Jiangnan and Dalian, the PLAN could get a carrier every 2 years.
We could be looking at more than 2x the current build capacity of the Americans for the subs and carriers.
The only saving grace is we are punching way above our weight class relative to the size of our economies and the start date of such projects.
It's also because the conformal large aperture bow sonar and other systems aboard the boats is considered too sensitive for export. This is the kind of tech that NPOL/DRDO might need some foreign input on, imo.
Hope we can beat China to it. The Russians are apparently helping the PLAN build their new gen Type 096 SSBN.
In a decades time, submarines will be the only tech area where we'll still need Russian support imo.
In every other aspect, we'll be on par or better than them.
At 95-97% indigenization, we should be fine on the electronics front. It's the remaining 3-5% that we need to take care of.
I'm not so sure about that. With 95-97% for SSNs, assuming something similar for S-5+, our dependence on the Russians will be amongst all categories of weapons will be the least here.
The army, historically the most allergic to indigenous tech, may become the first to indigenize. The only area left is propulsion and we are very close to getting there.
The navy and air force will be the last to fully indigenize given the complexity of their projects. IAF's goal is to get everything below fighter jets made in India, but we will continue relying on imports for heavy helicopters, transports and wide body aircraft for an unknown amount of time. The IN's goal is to indigenize marine diesel engines and gas turbines by 2047. They started on the diesel engine only last year. As long as we have to import, we have to keep Russia in the loop to keep things competitive with the West.
So I think we are pretty well placed when it comes to subs comparatively.
Oil imports are par for the course but it will become increasingly difficult for GOI to be seen as patronizing Russia's MIC. Aside from spares and support for contracted items and old inventory, I don't see us placing orders for any major systems with them. Not with the Ukraine war dragging on at least.
We will however continue co-development/direct purchases of niche tech like SFDR or even rocket engines but keep it under wraps. IP/tech transfer issues have impacted many projects till date like T-90 (gun barrel, armour), PAK-FA, MTA, to name a few.
The IN, in particular, will not have forgotten Russia's price gouging tactics with a/c Vikky which led to the re-negotiation of a signed contract.
Russian Sierra class has non magnetic Hull due to titanium use + according to manufacture Titanium Hull of the submarine has 100 year lifespan..... It's heart ( Nuclear Reactor ) will give out long before rest of the submarine body.
Forget most of the pre-CAATSA and civvie stuff. Things get interesting in the exotic military domain because most of their equivalents have only one source in the West, the US.
Out of all our services, only the IA is working on next gen stuff. The IAF and IN are still catching up to current gen; fighter jets, ships and subs. The Chinese are expected to catch up to the US by 2030, and by 2040 they could become equivalent powers. Otoh, India will probably catch up technologically only by 2050.
So, until we have completely caught up and are working alongside them on next gen tech we are gonna have to rely on the Russians. And because of deals like Chakra 2 and FGFA, the West opened their doors to their naval and aerospace tech. With the West stepping in for this modernization cycle, we have no need for the Russians in the short term. But they will be needed again in 2035-40 when all their next gen stuff becomes a reality without equivalents of our own.
In any case, in 10 more years we will not have to care about Western sentiments.
Btw, the Russians didn't trick us in the carrier deal. Neither the IN nor Sevmash knew what they were getting into. Both realized it's gonna be more expensive once they actually started cutting everything up. Plus the new contract had upgrades the IN was gonna pay for separately during the first refit. And Sevmash delivered the carrier without making any profit.
So FRCV is next gen tech which the IA our only armed force out of the 3 is working on while the rest of the 2 armed forces are playing catch up & the one developing cutting edge stuff is importing infantry rifles from 4 different sources enabling Armenia to make India atma nirbhar in defence by trialing weapons & platforms to glory.
If that wasn't enough the Russians weren't screwing us over the Gorshkov at all . It was a case of the blind leading the blind @sevmash & IN not knowing what they got into & Sevmash poor chaps making a loss on the entire deal.
You can choose to enjoy your Sunday @Speedster1 or take a deep dive into the rabbit hole chasing after someone who does so everyday repeatedly for fun after being in forever mode around the mulberry bush .
If that wasn't enough the Russians weren't screwing us over the Gorshkov at all . It was a case of the blind leading the blind @sevmash & IN not knowing what they got into & Sevmash poor chaps making a loss on the entire deal.
You can choose to enjoy your Sunday @Speedster1 or take a deep dive into the rabbit hole chasing after someone who does so everyday repeatedly for fun after being in forever mode around the mulberry bush .
Ah, how childish.
FRCV is the only big program we have that's moving alongside global next gen tank programs like Armata, EMBT and K3, all thanks to Arjun.
For everything else, we have zero capabilities. We do not have a twin-engine jet to build on or an SSN to develop the next class from. Our carrier isn't even flat-top, and even our next carrier is expected to be another STOBAR.
When 5th gen AMCA is in service, others will have 6th gen. And when our SSN hits the water, we will not only have merely 1 sub, it may end up being a contemporary sub, somewhat equivalent to existing subs today, but with somewhat better tech, never mind what's cutting edge for the time, like Type 097 or SSN-X. Forget about CATOBAR carrier with nuke reactor, let's hope we get a conventional CATOBAR by 2050, when both the US and China are operating over a dozen nuclear-powered supercarriers, and we will be an economic heavyweight like them by then.
So yeah, while the IA is current gen, the IAF and IN are a generation behind the main powers.
FRCV is the only big program we have that's moving alongside global next gen tank programs like Armata, EMBT and K3, all thanks to Arjun.
For everything else, we have zero capabilities. We do not have a twin-engine jet to build on or an SSN to develop the next class from. Our carrier isn't even flat-top, and even our next carrier is expected to be another STOBAR.
When 5th gen AMCA is in service, others will have 6th gen. And when our SSN hits the water, we will not only have merely 1 sub, it may end up being a contemporary sub, somewhat equivalent to existing subs today, but with somewhat better tech, never mind what's cutting edge for the time, like Type 097 or SSN-X. Forget about CATOBAR carrier with nuke reactor, let's hope we get a conventional CATOBAR by 2050, when both the US and China are operating over a dozen nuclear-powered supercarriers, and we will be an economic heavyweight like them by then.
So yeah, while the IA is current gen, the IAF and IN are a generation behind the main powers.
Bit OT, but pray please tell us how is IA current gen, when the basic infantry soldier doesn't have nvg, optical sights, wears mismatched camo with old fibre tin can helmets ? And when even our SF waits for first light to attack and we don't own the night even in our own territory ? Not to forget the lack of a separate SF regiment still even after being recommended by many ? IA is the most backward in thinking and technology compared to IN or IAF, they are stuck in WWII era British thinking, which even the British have abandoned.
The IN would have preferred to lease a US SSN (likely LA class) had it not turned down the request. iirc, we did make a similar request in the 1980s too (with the same result) before we signed with the Soviets for the Chakra-1.
Despite our status as ' strategic partner on par with Japan', the US would never give us naval tech that could 'upset the balance of power in the region' as the DSCA calls it.
In any case, all this talk about 'weaning India away from Russian MIC' started only after Ukraine. Before that, several joint development intiatives (one of which was an air launched drone iirc) went nowhere.
Problem is the IA often sets impossible requirements most manufacturers can't match - for example, 25t MTOW- which is really no improvement at all over the previous gen BMP-2
Quite right, no one was to blame.
Sevmash didn't have carrier building experience (some truth there). The IN, with all its years of carrier aviation experience, didn't have the acumen to know that a glorified helicopter carrier mothballed for decades couldn't possibly be converted for conventional ops for as low as $900M. MiG didn't know their 29K wasn't fit for sustained carrier ops.
Name one long range deployment Vikky has undertaken since she arrived in 2013.
The US has always used arms sales as leverage in its dealings with India. The deeper we integrate into a Western security framework, the lesser our ability to resist pressure will get.
Call it creative accounting. Vikky did for Sevmash what MKI did for Sukhoi - brought the back from the brink of collapse. No penalties were imposed for the sake of dosti. Since then, we have switched to G2G deals when dealing with Russia.
First image of PLAN Type 09IIIB SSN...... Very refined streamline Hull I must say.... Has a suffren look. Only time will tell how noisy this Chinese junk is.
Most of what people are concerned about regarding the IA, even the IA isn't. Technology for infantry modernization that the IA wants isn't available yet. And whatever's available is in the process of acquisition. And the stuff the SF really need are currently unaffordable, like a large number of aircraft. Only the US is at the level necessary.
And I don't know what you mean by first light, SF operations conducted in PoK were in the dark.
But all of their efforts when it comes to large scale capex is all cutting edge even when compared to post-modern US and European armies thanks to a lot of Israeli assistance in these fields. That's really why they are now able to reform and restructure the army.
Anyway, I'm referring to development programs for next gen, not what we already have in operation, so I'm referring to the MIC.
The IA used to be behind the IAF and IN. But now they have taken the lead. The reason is as simple as the short gestation period required to develop army tech, it's just 5-7 years versus 10-15 for the IAF/IN. It takes the same period of time to create requirements, but getting technology into production is much faster for the IA and the overall development process is also cheaper and much easier.
Then comes our political goals. Against Pakistan, we want overmatch. But against the US and China, we want a top notch army, but mediocre air force and navy, all 'cause we want to present to them a militarily non-threatening India until we get our more serious domestic issues sorted out. We want to the play the economic superpower game, but militarily we are demonstrating the intention to not have designs outside the IOR.
So by 2047, the IN will have just 3 carriers and 6 SSNs with a goal of sea denial vis-a-vis China (and the US), and the IAF will most likely have limited or no long range capability that will take them outside the IOR, all the while having an economy similar in size to the US and China. And our industrial pursuits are working towards matching this goal.
RST reminds me of one of the most prominent heroes of the Mahabharata - Arjuna. How come you ask ? It's his single minded dedication to focus , to see only what he wants to. Hence , my entire statement which I'm quoting here for everyone's benefit
got read by RST as
It's this i̶n̶a̶b̶i̶l̶i̶t̶y̶ (sorry) refusal to consider a situation or an article or even a post holistically which leads to his mis analyses.
Earlier there's was an instance regarding Deino whom I characterised as a Chinese bot masquerading as a European interested in Chinese military aviation which modern day Arjuna here read ONLY as a Chinese bot & came out with an elaborate post about his antecedents. That's just one among the many examples that come top of the mind.
Also another reason he gets too clever by half quotes spurious data while arguing with people like Paddy , Arctic Wolf etc & gets beaten black & blue.
It's a monumental tragedy modern day Arjuna here restricts his presence to merely Strategic Front denying multitudes outside the benefits & may I add rollicking pleasure of his gyan .
God knows I recommend way back in 2018 when Defence Decode first launched their channel , RST emulate them but no , he's too dedicated & contented to entertaining a small section out here . Since then there've been multiple channels launched denying the world an opportunity to partake of his genius.
got read by RST as
It's this i̶n̶a̶b̶i̶l̶i̶t̶y̶ (sorry) refusal to consider a situation or an article or even a post holistically which leads to his mis analyses.
Earlier there's was an instance regarding Deino whom I characterised as a Chinese bot masquerading as a European interested in Chinese military aviation which modern day Arjuna here read ONLY as a Chinese bot & came out with an elaborate post about his antecedents. That's just one among the many examples that come top of the mind.
Also another reason he gets too clever by half quotes spurious data while arguing with people like Paddy , Arctic Wolf etc & gets beaten black & blue.
It's a monumental tragedy modern day Arjuna here restricts his presence to merely Strategic Front denying multitudes outside the benefits & may I add rollicking pleasure of his gyan .
God knows I recommend way back in 2018 when Defence Decode first launched their channel , RST emulate them but no , he's too dedicated & contented to entertaining a small section out here . Since then there've been multiple channels launched denying the world an opportunity to partake of his genius.