Indian Space Program: News & Discussions
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Just some speculations in my head.
Recently @hellbent posted this photo on Other Forum.
I've frankly never heard of this before, so I decided to do some digging and found the following :
The PCMC radar was developed by DRDO and produced by BEL.
Precision coherent monopulse C-band radar system
The link above states the publication is from April 24, 1989. Suffice it to say the PCMC radars aren't exactly new, so how come almost nobody noticed them in any defence forums ? Well that's because the PCMC was developed to be used by the ISRO for satellite data reception and in some cases tracking applications too.
The ISRO, over the years, has established a comprehensive global and local network of ground stations to provide Telemetry, Tracking and Command (TTC) support to satellite and launch vehicle missions. These facilities are grouped under ISRO Telemetry, Tracking and Command Network (ISTRAC) with its headquarters at Bangalore, India.
ISRO Telemetry, Tracking and Command Network - Wikipedia
There is a TTC facility in Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam that recently came up which caused quite the uproar in China. That TTC facility will allow Vietnam to directly access data from our satellites with out needing an approval from New Delhi. Satellites like the RISAT and CARTOSAT series, probably the EMISAT and HySIS is in that list too.
From 2016 :
India to build satellite tracking station in Vietnam that offers eye on China - Reuters
With Chinese objection Hanoi hesitated but Delhi pushed on :
India moves closer to activate satellite tracking station in Vietnam, inks pact despite objection by China
We are also getting a TTC in Bhutan quite soon :
ISRO to set up Ground Station in Bhutan
On the other hand, range of the PCMC radar is as follows : (source : View of Development of C-Band RF Front-end of Precision Coherent Mono-pulse C-Band Radar )
a) For tracking a object in normal radar mode, range is around 120 km.
b) For tracking and receiving information for satellite transponders, range is around 2200 km
This is good enough for our satellites or foreign satellites that have transponders programmed to respond to the PCMC radar. But what about the satellites or missiles/rockets that don't respond to our hardware. How do we track them ?
ISRO uses the Multi-Object Tracking Radar(MOTR) for that task. Put in service in the year 2015, the performance of this thing got many respected defence analysts to point out that the MOTR easily outperforms the Swordfish LRTR in most if not all parameters. They advocated the MOTR be used to augment if not replace the Swordfish in India's BMD.
http://capsindia.org/files/documents/CAPS_Infocus_AS2_2.pdf
We know today that a version of the MOTR sits as the primary radar of the VC1184. After the recent ASAT test the MOTR was used for debris tracking. The radar was probably based in Bangalore TTC or in SDSC, Sriharikota.
That got me thinking. Do all our domestic TTC facilities have a MOTR ? That would be redundant given the range of the MOTR. Presence of it in a few crucial locations(like SDSC and Port Blair) should do the trick.
Can we station the MOTR on foreign soil under the guise of a TTC ? Such a long range radar in Bhutan or Vietnam along with upcoming satellites like the GISAT, new satellites in RISAT series and Cartosat-3 can provide unprecedented early warning from Chinese ballistic missiles.
Recently @hellbent posted this photo on Other Forum.
I've frankly never heard of this before, so I decided to do some digging and found the following :
The PCMC radar was developed by DRDO and produced by BEL.
Precision coherent monopulse C-band radar system
The link above states the publication is from April 24, 1989. Suffice it to say the PCMC radars aren't exactly new, so how come almost nobody noticed them in any defence forums ? Well that's because the PCMC was developed to be used by the ISRO for satellite data reception and in some cases tracking applications too.
The ISRO, over the years, has established a comprehensive global and local network of ground stations to provide Telemetry, Tracking and Command (TTC) support to satellite and launch vehicle missions. These facilities are grouped under ISRO Telemetry, Tracking and Command Network (ISTRAC) with its headquarters at Bangalore, India.
ISRO Telemetry, Tracking and Command Network - Wikipedia
There is a TTC facility in Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam that recently came up which caused quite the uproar in China. That TTC facility will allow Vietnam to directly access data from our satellites with out needing an approval from New Delhi. Satellites like the RISAT and CARTOSAT series, probably the EMISAT and HySIS is in that list too.
From 2016 :
India to build satellite tracking station in Vietnam that offers eye on China - Reuters
With Chinese objection Hanoi hesitated but Delhi pushed on :
India moves closer to activate satellite tracking station in Vietnam, inks pact despite objection by China
We are also getting a TTC in Bhutan quite soon :
ISRO to set up Ground Station in Bhutan
On the other hand, range of the PCMC radar is as follows : (source : View of Development of C-Band RF Front-end of Precision Coherent Mono-pulse C-Band Radar )
a) For tracking a object in normal radar mode, range is around 120 km.
b) For tracking and receiving information for satellite transponders, range is around 2200 km
This is good enough for our satellites or foreign satellites that have transponders programmed to respond to the PCMC radar. But what about the satellites or missiles/rockets that don't respond to our hardware. How do we track them ?
ISRO uses the Multi-Object Tracking Radar(MOTR) for that task. Put in service in the year 2015, the performance of this thing got many respected defence analysts to point out that the MOTR easily outperforms the Swordfish LRTR in most if not all parameters. They advocated the MOTR be used to augment if not replace the Swordfish in India's BMD.
http://capsindia.org/files/documents/CAPS_Infocus_AS2_2.pdf
We know today that a version of the MOTR sits as the primary radar of the VC1184. After the recent ASAT test the MOTR was used for debris tracking. The radar was probably based in Bangalore TTC or in SDSC, Sriharikota.
That got me thinking. Do all our domestic TTC facilities have a MOTR ? That would be redundant given the range of the MOTR. Presence of it in a few crucial locations(like SDSC and Port Blair) should do the trick.
Can we station the MOTR on foreign soil under the guise of a TTC ? Such a long range radar in Bhutan or Vietnam along with upcoming satellites like the GISAT, new satellites in RISAT series and Cartosat-3 can provide unprecedented early warning from Chinese ballistic missiles.
A better image of this about to be approved experiment. Now we know the full form of ADMIRE.
Notice the grid-fins on near top of the missile. They should theoretically allow for high-angle of attack maneuvers. Also notice the SpaceX like legs at the bottom of the missile.
The presence of fins at the bottom would mean a target to carry out flight and landing with-out leaving the atmosphere. The engine has to be liquid or semi-cryo for restart-ability, re-usability and throttle-ability. All of which will be needed for these missions.
In all due probability the engine will be a scaled down version of the liquid Vikas engine(less propellent). We do already have a similar contraption in use already.
Remember the GSLV Mark 2, that thing uses 4 liquid stap-on boosters powered by Vikas engine.
Here is a GSLV MK2 in flight. Notice the difference in flame ejection. The main engine is a S139 Core Stage, solid fueled, wheras the boosters are liquid fueled. Also notice the shock diamond formation, pretty cool sight.
ISRO's hypersonic wind tunnel facility. One of the few such facilities in the world(there are 3 others, I think). This will prove to be absolutely vital in the development of hypersonic scramjet missiles.
There was a time we had no wind tunnels in India. When we tried using wind tunnels in foreign countries, but they were subject to a lot of restrictions and scrutiny. Then we tried to make our own wind tunnels, but the tech we needed were sanctioned/restricted by the USA and some european countries(Germany most frequently). A few decades down the line everybody has it now. NAL, HAL, ISRO, CABS, ADA--- you name it.
Now we regularly receive requests from the same countries to help them with some CFD and wind tunnel work. How times change.
I think it was Steve Jobs who once said "Time is a great equalizer"
How very true. But time is only an equalizer for those who persevere, the quitters get nothing.
There was a time we had no wind tunnels in India. When we tried using wind tunnels in foreign countries, but they were subject to a lot of restrictions and scrutiny. Then we tried to make our own wind tunnels, but the tech we needed were sanctioned/restricted by the USA and some european countries(Germany most frequently). A few decades down the line everybody has it now. NAL, HAL, ISRO, CABS, ADA--- you name it.
Now we regularly receive requests from the same countries to help them with some CFD and wind tunnel work. How times change.
I think it was Steve Jobs who once said "Time is a great equalizer"
How very true. But time is only an equalizer for those who persevere, the quitters get nothing.
Just something I found meandering about on the Internet. Pics are in order and self descriptive. We've made some progress on the mettulurgy front of cryo and semi-cryo engine it seems.
Navy to buy Rs 1,589 crore satellite from ISRO
By Manu Pubby, ET Bureau
Published July 19, 2019, 11:55 IST
The Indian Navy has placed an order with the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) for a new dedicated military satellite for communications between its warships, aircraft and shore-based units, with a launch expected within a year.
The Rs 1,589 crore order for a new military satellite—named GSAT 7R—will include launch cost and procurement of necessary infrastructure on ground. The satellite is expected to eventually replace the first dedicated Indian military satellite, the GSAT 7, which was launched in 2013.
The order for the satellite was placed on June 11, with officials saying the newly-sanctioned tri-services Defence Space Agency(DSA) is likely to get several new assets in the coming months for communication as well as surveillance.
The GSAT 7R, which will be designed to be compatible with a variety of platforms including future submarines of the Indian Navy, has an expected launch date in 2020.
In December last year, a dedicated military communications satellite for the Indian Air Force, dubbed the Indian Angry Bird, was also launched by ISRO.
The GSAT 7A satellite, which went into orbit onboard the indigenous GSLV Mk II rocket, is being used for communication between all strategic platforms of the air force, including fighter jets, drones and early warning aircraft. The GSAT 6, launched in 2015, is being used for communication by ground forces.
India has been steadily increasing its presence in space that started with the series of dual use satellite from the CARTOSAT and RISAT family that are used for surveillance. In April this year, ISRO launched the strategic EMISAT that has been designed to pick up electromagnetic signals and is likely to be used for communication interception and detection of enemy assets.
The biggest surprise that India pulled off however was Anti-Satellite Test carried out on March 27, in which a ground-based interceptor successfully destroyed a low earth orbit satellite. The test placed India in a select grouping of the US, Russia and China with demonstrated anti-satellite capability.
Navy to buy Rs 1,589 crore satellite from ISRO
By Manu Pubby, ET Bureau
Published July 19, 2019, 11:55 IST
The Indian Navy has placed an order with the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) for a new dedicated military satellite for communications between its warships, aircraft and shore-based units, with a launch expected within a year.
The Rs 1,589 crore order for a new military satellite—named GSAT 7R—will include launch cost and procurement of necessary infrastructure on ground. The satellite is expected to eventually replace the first dedicated Indian military satellite, the GSAT 7, which was launched in 2013.
The order for the satellite was placed on June 11, with officials saying the newly-sanctioned tri-services Defence Space Agency(DSA) is likely to get several new assets in the coming months for communication as well as surveillance.
The GSAT 7R, which will be designed to be compatible with a variety of platforms including future submarines of the Indian Navy, has an expected launch date in 2020.
In December last year, a dedicated military communications satellite for the Indian Air Force, dubbed the Indian Angry Bird, was also launched by ISRO.
The GSAT 7A satellite, which went into orbit onboard the indigenous GSLV Mk II rocket, is being used for communication between all strategic platforms of the air force, including fighter jets, drones and early warning aircraft. The GSAT 6, launched in 2015, is being used for communication by ground forces.
India has been steadily increasing its presence in space that started with the series of dual use satellite from the CARTOSAT and RISAT family that are used for surveillance. In April this year, ISRO launched the strategic EMISAT that has been designed to pick up electromagnetic signals and is likely to be used for communication interception and detection of enemy assets.
The biggest surprise that India pulled off however was Anti-Satellite Test carried out on March 27, in which a ground-based interceptor successfully destroyed a low earth orbit satellite. The test placed India in a select grouping of the US, Russia and China with demonstrated anti-satellite capability.
Navy to buy Rs 1,589 crore satellite from ISRO
5 Missions in 5 yrs to study Solar System, Black holes
Kalyan Ray, DH News Service, New Delhi,
Solar system (Image courtesy Twitter)
Moving beyond Chandrayaan-2, Indian Space Research Organisation plans to launch five astronomy missions in the next five years to explore the deep space.
ISRO would send spacecraft to the Sun, Venus and Mars besides launching a unique probe to study cosmic monsters like Black Holes.
In each case, key inputs on mission planning would come from India's second lunar venture involving an orbiter, a lander and a rover. Chandrayaan-2 is slated for launch on July 22.
The next two deep space missions immediately after the lunar probe would be Aditya-L1 for studying the Sun and Xposat (X-ray Polarisation Satellite) that would seek to throw new light on mysterious celestial bodies like Black Hole and Neutron Stars.
Being developed by scientists at Raman Research Institute, Bengaluru, the Xposat will exploit a rather unusual technique called polarimetry to look at the universe.
The National Aeronautics and Space Administration, USA used such a technique way back in 1976 to carry out measurements on Crab Nebula.
“We wish to conduct our experiments within three years though the payload (named Polix) will be having a life of five years,” Biswajit Paul, RRI scientist and principal investigator of the project told DH.
Xposat would study neutron stars to know more about their behaviour besides turning its gaze on the accretion disc and corona of a black hole to find out answers to scientific queries pending for a long time.
Aditya-L1 too would be a path-breaking mission in which a 400 kg class satellite carrying the payload will be placed in an orbit around the Sun in such a way so that it can continuously view the star without any occultation or eclipses during which the Sun is hidden by other planetary bodies. The orbit would be located 1.5 million km away from the Earth.
The solar mission will seek to enhance the current understanding of the Solar Corona besides provide vital data for space weather studies.
“The Venus mission generated a lot of curiosity (17 Indian and 7 International proposals received so far) because barely anyone has plans to go to the second planet in the Solar system. The idea is to have an orbiter and a drone-like a probe that would be released from the spacecraft. We hope that the drone would send some information back before being burnt,” said Somak Raychaudhury, director of the Inter-University Centre for Astronomy and Astrophysics, Pune.
The second mission to the Mars is planned in 2024, though details are yet to frozen.
By 2024-25, the space agency plans to launch a pair of a satellite named DISHA (Disturbed and quite-type Ionosphere System at High Altitude) to have a better understanding of the interplay between the charged particles and cosmic rays at an altitude of 400-450 km.
5 Missions in 5 yrs to study Solar System, Black holes
Kalyan Ray, DH News Service, New Delhi,
- Jul 19 2019, 18:52pm ist
- updated: Jul 19 2019, 18:52pm IST
Solar system (Image courtesy Twitter)
Moving beyond Chandrayaan-2, Indian Space Research Organisation plans to launch five astronomy missions in the next five years to explore the deep space.
ISRO would send spacecraft to the Sun, Venus and Mars besides launching a unique probe to study cosmic monsters like Black Holes.
In each case, key inputs on mission planning would come from India's second lunar venture involving an orbiter, a lander and a rover. Chandrayaan-2 is slated for launch on July 22.
The next two deep space missions immediately after the lunar probe would be Aditya-L1 for studying the Sun and Xposat (X-ray Polarisation Satellite) that would seek to throw new light on mysterious celestial bodies like Black Hole and Neutron Stars.
Being developed by scientists at Raman Research Institute, Bengaluru, the Xposat will exploit a rather unusual technique called polarimetry to look at the universe.
The National Aeronautics and Space Administration, USA used such a technique way back in 1976 to carry out measurements on Crab Nebula.
“We wish to conduct our experiments within three years though the payload (named Polix) will be having a life of five years,” Biswajit Paul, RRI scientist and principal investigator of the project told DH.
Xposat would study neutron stars to know more about their behaviour besides turning its gaze on the accretion disc and corona of a black hole to find out answers to scientific queries pending for a long time.
Aditya-L1 too would be a path-breaking mission in which a 400 kg class satellite carrying the payload will be placed in an orbit around the Sun in such a way so that it can continuously view the star without any occultation or eclipses during which the Sun is hidden by other planetary bodies. The orbit would be located 1.5 million km away from the Earth.
The solar mission will seek to enhance the current understanding of the Solar Corona besides provide vital data for space weather studies.
“The Venus mission generated a lot of curiosity (17 Indian and 7 International proposals received so far) because barely anyone has plans to go to the second planet in the Solar system. The idea is to have an orbiter and a drone-like a probe that would be released from the spacecraft. We hope that the drone would send some information back before being burnt,” said Somak Raychaudhury, director of the Inter-University Centre for Astronomy and Astrophysics, Pune.
The second mission to the Mars is planned in 2024, though details are yet to frozen.
By 2024-25, the space agency plans to launch a pair of a satellite named DISHA (Disturbed and quite-type Ionosphere System at High Altitude) to have a better understanding of the interplay between the charged particles and cosmic rays at an altitude of 400-450 km.
5 Missions in 5 yrs to study Solar System, Black holes
This is what the ISRO uses to cool down electronics onboard launch vehicles.
View of Passive Thermal Management of Launch Vehicle Systems using Phase Changing Materials
View of Passive Thermal Management of Launch Vehicle Systems using Phase Changing Materials
He would've been one happy man if he was alive today. Thank you for everything sir.
1960s :: Young ISRO Scientist Abdul Kalam Assembling Test Rocket in Thumba pic.twitter.com/gtdoAliVKf
— indianhistorypics (@IndiaHistorypic) July 22, 2019
India to buy Russian rocket engines for its space program: RIA
Published on : July 22, 2019, 9:16 PM IST
MOSCOW (Reuters) - India plans to buy rocket engines from Russia for its national space program, RIA news agency cited Russian Deputy Prime Minister Yury Borisov as saying during a visit to New Delhi on Monday.
India launched a rocket into space on Monday in an attempt to safely land a rover on the moon, its most ambitious mission yet in the effort to establish itself as a low-cost space power.
India to buy Russian rocket engines for its space program: RIA - Reuters
@Parthu @Ashwin @_Anonymous_ @randomradio et al
Eh.....? Where did this come from ? This doesn't fit in our scheme of things, as far as I know. What kind of engines ? Semi-cryo ? That would be the only thing that makes sense, since we make the rest.
Is the SCE-200 in development having some problems ? Or is the Gaganyaan deadline causing troubles ?
Published on : July 22, 2019, 9:16 PM IST
MOSCOW (Reuters) - India plans to buy rocket engines from Russia for its national space program, RIA news agency cited Russian Deputy Prime Minister Yury Borisov as saying during a visit to New Delhi on Monday.
India launched a rocket into space on Monday in an attempt to safely land a rover on the moon, its most ambitious mission yet in the effort to establish itself as a low-cost space power.
India to buy Russian rocket engines for its space program: RIA - Reuters
@Parthu @Ashwin @_Anonymous_ @randomradio et al
Eh.....? Where did this come from ? This doesn't fit in our scheme of things, as far as I know. What kind of engines ? Semi-cryo ? That would be the only thing that makes sense, since we make the rest.
Is the SCE-200 in development having some problems ? Or is the Gaganyaan deadline causing troubles ?
It depends on the type of engine. The Russians have the best rocket tech in the world, so it makes sense that we buy their tech.
Particularly the boost and first stage. They have the RD-180 which is a closed cycle engine. Replacing our boost stage or first stage with the RD-180 will possibly give us the ability to launch much heavier satellites with the same rocket.
The Americans have also been importing the RD-180 for the Atlas V's first stage, until the Russians sancitoned them.
Anyway, this engine will eventually allow us to launch ultra-heavy satellites for military purposes much more quickly than if we went indigneous.
I actually wanted a RD-170
Not that we have what it takes to handle 7.9 MN thrust, but still its a fetish.
I actually wanted a RD-170
Not that we have what it takes to handle 7.9 MN thrust, but still its a fetish.
Only $25M.
Per piece ?? Holy Sh*t !!! Won't the Russians sell it to us at friendship rates this time ?
On a serious note, the Russian Deputy PM announcing it is pretty significant that too in India. Either we already have a deal or are very close to having one. But its more or less confirmed. How much do the RD-180 cost though ?
Before the euphoria, any confirmation from ISRO or India? ISRO is generally not that secretive, given its a civilian agency.
I dont think ISRO need any help in Solid boosters. Also Russians haven't got much in civilian space to offer too. And Khurnichev is in no way going to part with their crown jewels. Nothing in the Cryo too, in the thrust ranges ISRO requires. That leaves RP fuelled SemiCryos. But we were working with the Yuzhnoe Design Bureau there. And their offer , the RD 810 is essentially a derivative of the venerable RD 170, but a conservative design. I dont think after going this far down the RD 810 path that we would terminate it.
Regarding Gaganyaan, wasn't that supposed to be onboard a unmodified GSLV Mk3 i.e wasn't current the rocket with L-110 using Vikas HT Engine the platform for Gaganyaan??
I dont think ISRO need any help in Solid boosters. Also Russians haven't got much in civilian space to offer too. And Khurnichev is in no way going to part with their crown jewels. Nothing in the Cryo too, in the thrust ranges ISRO requires. That leaves RP fuelled SemiCryos. But we were working with the Yuzhnoe Design Bureau there. And their offer , the RD 810 is essentially a derivative of the venerable RD 170, but a conservative design. I dont think after going this far down the RD 810 path that we would terminate it.
Regarding Gaganyaan, wasn't that supposed to be onboard a unmodified GSLV Mk3 i.e wasn't current the rocket with L-110 using Vikas HT Engine the platform for Gaganyaan??
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Nothing yet, I'll post if I find something. The last known reports about the SCE-200 is from 2018, it was stated to have been undergoing testing in Ukraine. Tests were supposed to end in a year and there would have been a SCE-200 firing in LPSC Mahendragiri engine test centre.
As of early this year has been work going on in the LPSC facility. There has been tender issued to augment the facility to make it capable of withstanding a SCE-200 fire. Moe on that on post no #520 on page 26 of this thread.
Remember how we acquired few Russian cryo engines for the GSLV Mk1(the KVD-1 engine) even as we worked on making our own ? We flew the first few missions with the KVD-1 as we took lessons from it and applied to the CE-7.5. As we made the CE-7.5 our understanding of cryogenic engines increased to the point where ewe didn't need anybody's help anymore. Then we developed the CE-20, one of the most powerful cryo stages in the world. So even if we acquired the KVD-1 for a heavy price and the Russian couldn't share any worthwhile tech(MTCR restrictions) it all worked out well for us.
Maybe that's the plan here. Maybe the whole point of a acquisition isn't taking tech from the Russians, but rather taking operational experience. ISRO can figure out he rest. I agree with you that we are not going to terminate the SCE-200, it would be a waste to do so. But nothing wrong with running two paths at once especially if we've done it before.
Are you sure about that ?
GSLV M3 is a fine rocket, but I worry about the presence of solid boosters in a manned mission.
Anyway all this is a hypothetical thought exercise. Let's see if ISRO or DoS announces anything.
Some old slides on the GISAT-1. It will be launched in September 2019.
Remember my long rant about the SBIRS in the CY-2 thread ? well this is the solution to all the problems faced by IR imaging. Not only does it solve legacy issues but it significantly adds capabilities too, all that at a much lower price tag.
Remember my long rant about the SBIRS in the CY-2 thread ? well this is the solution to all the problems faced by IR imaging. Not only does it solve legacy issues but it significantly adds capabilities too, all that at a much lower price tag.
Nothing at all... It would be a good insurance too, given the situation in Ukraine (I dont know how Yuzhnoe and Yuzhmash are affected, but still..) Also Energomash and Glushko were the real masters of Staged cumbustion.. So if we can pull that off, it would be great. As i said, I dont see us abandoning SCE-200. given our history to master cryo in even absence of Tech transfer,here I heard we are getting blueprints of RD 810 in this project (Jasmine or so it is referred and yuzhmash havent made one, the engine being a design rather than a product), which is a huge step up coupled with our knowledge of Cryo operation. So we will make something worthwhile, or at least that is the impression one gets from open source information.
I read that in newspaper articles and in NSF folks were going over this specific thoroughly.
Link to the reference
From the above
Sivan said, “The first test of the advanced version of Mk III will take place in December 2020. With upgrade in Mk III, we will also have to upgrade the launchpad facility at Sriharikota. We have therefore issued a tender notice recently inviting quotations for infrastructure upgrades at the second launchpad.”However, the chairman clarified the rocket with the semicryogenic stage won't be used for the Gaganyaan mission. Thecurrent GSLV Mk III with L110 stage will only be used for the manned mission with some modifications.
Also the timelines too suggest a Mk3 vehicle with minimal modification. Its already H2 2019. To complete the testing , flight validation, human rating the same (Now, is SCE-200 human rated? RD-170 is, obviously, for Buran-Energia) of not only a new engine but to integrate this into a new stage and make this the core of our launcher, well we would be designing almost a new Launch Vehicle, which in the limited timeframe seems difficult to pull off.
I agree with the angst regarding Solids on Human space flight launchers, but if ISRO is confident, I tend to trust their judgement.
Finally everything is hypothetical, till something comes out in open
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