Indo-Israeli Barak-8 / MRSAM

[Amit228]

It's simple really. The army and air force versions are different. Especially the launchers, platforms, CP etc. The army's operational environment is very different from the air force's hence needs a whole new R&D cycle.

Different by launchers & platform right.. but the most eminent part i.e missile mrsam remains the same & i guess it's guiding nd tracking radar would also be same..

It doesn't make any sense whatsoever to test an already proved system.. as i said it's not that army is ordering a better ER version that it would need to be validated.. so are we taking 6 yrs to test a launchers & platform? lol this beats me.. who on the earth will conduct a development test for an already developed nd tested weapon?

The air force variant's R&D began in 2009, serial production in 2017 and deliveries in 2020. The army variant's R&D began in 2017 and was first tested in Dec 2020. The production contract for the army's variant is yet to be signed, it's gonna be a very big one.

What does that mean ? Production variant yet to be signed? AFAIK army had already signed the contract worth 2.5 billion dollars for deliveries of 40 launchers nd 5 regt in 2017. If contract is signed than my rule of thumb it should be delivered after 3 yrs of contract signing..

Here's the toi report stating the same.

Boost to Army's air power; to get medium range missile by 2020 | India News - Times of India

India News: The missile system will be produced by premier defence research organisation DRDO in collaboration with the Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI), a senio

m.timesofindia.com

 

[randomradio]

Different by launchers & platform right.. but the most eminent part i.e missile mrsam remains the same & i guess it's guiding nd tracking radar would also be same..

It doesn't make any sense whatsoever to test an already proved system.. as i said it's not that army is ordering a better ER version that it would need to be validated.. so are we taking 6 yrs to test a launchers & platform? lol this beats me.. who on the earth will conduct a development test for an already developed nd tested weapon?

The army version will be very, very different from the air force version even if the missile is the same. Especially because the IAF's version is on trailers while the IA's version will come on highly mobile vehicles with armour protection. The missiles will need testing in every configuration.

What does that mean ? Production variant yet to be signed? AFAIK army had already signed the contract worth 2.5 billion dollars for deliveries of 40 launchers nd 5 regt in 2017. If contract is signed than my rule of thumb it should be delivered after 3 yrs of contract signing..

Here's the toi report stating the same.

Boost to Army's air power; to get medium range missile by 2020 | India News - Times of India

India News: The missile system will be produced by premier defence research organisation DRDO in collaboration with the Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI), a senio

m.timesofindia.com

The article, like many defence articles in India, is not complete. Also 40 launchers won't make 5 regiments. The IAF's requirement alone is 54 launchers, 3 launchers per battery, not counting reserves, and the army's requirement is much larger than that. Right now, I'm more inclined to believe the IA's version will have 120-160 launchers in total, not counting reserves. With reserves, we could be talking about 72 launchers for the IAF and 160-200 launchers for the IA. Merely an addition of 1 launcher for each battery.

To put that in perspective, the air force is paying 5500Cr for 14 batteries of Akash Mk1S, whereas the IA is gonna pay over 10,000Cr for 2 regiments of the same SAM.

While the IAF will operate 18 batteries, not counting any future options, the IA is estimated to operate 40 batteries, not counting future options. And with the IA's need for superior vehicles, the overall cost will be at least 2.5x, almost $5B.

Also do recall that the contract we signed in 2017 was for 1000 missiles. That's only enough for the IAF's requirement. Basic math, 18 batteries multiplied by 3 launchers will give you 432 missiles. Double that for the 2nd shot, you get 864. The rest are reserves. Obviously doesn't cover the IA's requirement.

The 2017 contract covered a production deal for the IAF along with some 1000 missiles and an R&D deal for the IA which was 1700Cr and went to DRDO. So the IA's production deal should be signed sometime in 2023, with delivery of each regiment from 2024 to 2028. This contract will go to BEL.

You see, anything in the media requires proper analysis.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1417645807621206022

https://twitter.com/x/status/1417435458691235844

https://twitter.com/x/status/1417655809207533568

 

[Tatvamasi]

About 20-30 per cent of the MRSAM has been developed by the DRDO, including the missile’s propulsion system that is based on a sophisticated dual-pulse rocket motor, its thrust vector controls, and electrical harness (wiring).

IAI has designed and developed 70-80 per cent of the MRSAM, including the Elta MF-STAR radar, which forms the heart of the system.

This is the only missile that all three services have enthusiastically acquired. The naval version of the MRSAM, which is called the LRSAM (Long-Range Surface to Air Missile), is stored in, and fired from, sealed canisters below warship decks, in order to protect the missile from the corrosive marine environment. The LRSAM primarily protects Indian warships from sea-skimming, anti-ship missiles.

Air defence boost: Indian Air Force gets first Indo-Israeli missile

IAI has designed and developed 70-80 per cent of the MRSAM, including the Elta MF-STAR radar, which forms the heart of the system

www.business-standard.com

 

[Chain Smoker]

The army version will be very, very different from the air force version even if the missile is the same. Especially because the IAF's version is on trailers while the IA's version will come on highly mobile vehicles with armour protection. The missiles will need testing in every configuration.



The article, like many defence articles in India, is not complete. Also 40 launchers won't make 5 regiments. The IAF's requirement alone is 54 launchers, 3 launchers per battery, not counting reserves, and the army's requirement is much larger than that. Right now, I'm more inclined to believe the IA's version will have 120-160 launchers in total, not counting reserves. With reserves, we could be talking about 72 launchers for the IAF and 160-200 launchers for the IA. Merely an addition of 1 launcher for each battery.

To put that in perspective, the air force is paying 5500Cr for 14 batteries of Akash Mk1S, whereas the IA is gonna pay over 10,000Cr for 2 regiments of the same SAM.

While the IAF will operate 18 batteries, not counting any future options, the IA is estimated to operate 40 batteries, not counting future options. And with the IA's need for superior vehicles, the overall cost will be at least 2.5x, almost $5B.

Also do recall that the contract we signed in 2017 was for 1000 missiles. That's only enough for the IAF's requirement. Basic math, 18 batteries multiplied by 3 launchers will give you 432 missiles. Double that for the 2nd shot, you get 864. The rest are reserves. Obviously doesn't cover the IA's requirement.

The 2017 contract covered a production deal for the IAF along with some 1000 missiles and an R&D deal for the IA which was 1700Cr and went to DRDO. So the IA's production deal should be signed sometime in 2023, with delivery of each regiment from 2024 to 2028. This contract will go to BEL.

You see, anything in the media requires proper analysis.

How many launchers and missiles are we procuring for IAF and IA in simple data

 

[randomradio]

How many launchers and missiles are we procuring for IAF and IA in simple data

1 battery = 3 launchers with 8 missiles each = 24 missiles
IAF = 9 squadrons = 18 batteries = 432 missiles
Second shot = + 432 missiles
Training + reserve, 10% = possibly 144 missiles, ie 8 missiles per battery
Total = 1008 missiles
No clue about the launchers in reserve.
So the IAF numbers are pretty straightforward.

IA is going for 5 regiments, which could be as high as 8 batteries per regiment. So 40 batteries. That's 2200+ missiles for 120 launchers in the IAF's configuration. But this is currently speculation. It could even go as high as 160-200 launchers, with 4-5 launchers per battery.

 

[Tatvamasi]

^^ Clean view of the new booster of the Israeli ER version.

 

[AbRaj]

BTW they just sold their SAM SYSTEM to UAE for whooping 3.4 Billion USD.

here is the news

South Korea and the UAE sign a $3.5 billion Air-defence missile deal​

2022-01-17

The head of the Defense Acquisition Program Department, Kang Eun-ho, told reporters Sunday in Abu Dhabi that South Korea has agreed to sell the Cheongju-2 medium-range surface-to-air missiles to the UAE.

An informed source told Bloomberg that the value of the deal amounted to 3.5 billion dollars.

The signing of the deal came on the sidelines of South Korean President Moon Jae-in's visit to the UAE, and his meeting with Prime Minister Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid.

Moon Jae-in's visit to the UAE is part of his tour of the Middle East, which will last a week and include Egypt and Saudi Arabia.

The deal demonstrated South Korea's growing position as a growing source of technological and cultural exports. South Korea was the world's largest arms exporter between 2016-2020, according to the Korea Research Institute for Defense Technology Planning and Development.

During his visit to Dubai, the President of the Republic of South Korea and his wife Kim Jong Suk witnessed their country's celebration of its National Day at Expo 2020 Dubai, as part of his country's promotion to host Expo 2030


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...iles-on-mideast-trip?srnd=premium-middle-east

Cheolmae II / Cheongung (Iron Hawk)
M-SAM Medium Surface to Air Missile

Cheongung Block 2 Medium Range Surface-to-Air Missile (KM-SAM)

The United Arab Emirates said Tuesday that it will buy mid-range missiles from South Korea in what would be Seoul’s largest arms sale worth nearly 4 trillion won ($3.5 billion).

The Middle East country would be the first to purchase the surface-to-air Korean missile overseas, known as Cheongung, which local reports there described it as one of the most advanced in the world that will improve the quality of the UAE’s missile defense.

The Cheongung series, deployed in 2015 to hit targets flying 15 kilometers high and below, complement Korea’s missile defense, through which a Patriot missile intercepts threats flying as high as 20 kilometers, while the Terminal High Altitude Area Defense system eyes targets at least 40 kilometers high.

The Chengung series comes in two versions – one for aircraft and the other for ballistic missiles. Abu Dhabi is buying the second version to bolster its air defense, though it did not elaborate on how many missiles it is bringing in to upgrade it.

A complete Cheongung battery comprises a transporter launcher carrying eight missiles with a flight range of 40 kilometers, radar and a command vehicle. The Cheongung series is believed to be able to withstand extreme weather conditions and electromagnetic interference.

The Cheongung reportedly outperforms the US-made Patriot system because it is quicker to aim at a second target after the initial fire.

S. Korea sells missiles to UAE in record arms sale

Some high quality videos from YT

They test their systems very comprehensively.

 

[Hydra]

BTW they just sold their SAM SYSTEM to UAE for whooping 3.4 Billion USD.

here is the news

South Korea and the UAE sign a $3.5 billion Air-defence missile deal​

2022-01-17

The head of the Defense Acquisition Program Department, Kang Eun-ho, told reporters Sunday in Abu Dhabi that South Korea has agreed to sell the Cheongju-2 medium-range surface-to-air missiles to the UAE.

An informed source told Bloomberg that the value of the deal amounted to 3.5 billion dollars.

The signing of the deal came on the sidelines of South Korean President Moon Jae-in's visit to the UAE, and his meeting with Prime Minister Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid.

Moon Jae-in's visit to the UAE is part of his tour of the Middle East, which will last a week and include Egypt and Saudi Arabia.

The deal demonstrated South Korea's growing position as a growing source of technological and cultural exports. South Korea was the world's largest arms exporter between 2016-2020, according to the Korea Research Institute for Defense Technology Planning and Development.

During his visit to Dubai, the President of the Republic of South Korea and his wife Kim Jong Suk witnessed their country's celebration of its National Day at Expo 2020 Dubai, as part of his country's promotion to host Expo 2030


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...iles-on-mideast-trip?srnd=premium-middle-east

Cheolmae II / Cheongung (Iron Hawk)
M-SAM Medium Surface to Air Missile

Cheongung Block 2 Medium Range Surface-to-Air Missile (KM-SAM)

The United Arab Emirates said Tuesday that it will buy mid-range missiles from South Korea in what would be Seoul’s largest arms sale worth nearly 4 trillion won ($3.5 billion).

The Middle East country would be the first to purchase the surface-to-air Korean missile overseas, known as Cheongung, which local reports there described it as one of the most advanced in the world that will improve the quality of the UAE’s missile defense.

The Cheongung series, deployed in 2015 to hit targets flying 15 kilometers high and below, complement Korea’s missile defense, through which a Patriot missile intercepts threats flying as high as 20 kilometers, while the Terminal High Altitude Area Defense system eyes targets at least 40 kilometers high.

The Chengung series comes in two versions – one for aircraft and the other for ballistic missiles. Abu Dhabi is buying the second version to bolster its air defense, though it did not elaborate on how many missiles it is bringing in to upgrade it.

A complete Cheongung battery comprises a transporter launcher carrying eight missiles with a flight range of 40 kilometers, radar and a command vehicle. The Cheongung series is believed to be able to withstand extreme weather conditions and electromagnetic interference.

The Cheongung reportedly outperforms the US-made Patriot system because it is quicker to aim at a second target after the initial fire.

S. Korea sells missiles to UAE in record arms sale

Some high quality videos from YT

They test their systems very comprehensively.

Missile system looks enormous, is the engagement range mentioned is correct? Only 40 km for a missile with such dimension. The 20 km altitude is impressive.

What is our akash engagement altitude, i mean for base variant and for akash 2? @Gautam @randomradio

 

[Lolwa]

Missile system looks enormous, is the engagement range mentioned is correct? Only 40 km for a missile with such dimension. The 20 km altitude is impressive.

What is our akash engagement altitude, i mean for base variant and for akash 2? @Gautam @randomradio

This is based on a Russia s400 missile. That's why it might have been bought by UAE it's like a mini s-400 for the most part. The Russians gave away Koreans a lot of tech. They already have a brahmos ng copy in the works which will be most probably ready before us.

 

[Hydra]

This is based on a Russia s400 missile. That's why it might have been bought by UAE it's like a mini s-400 for the most part. The Russians gave away Koreans a lot of tech. They already have a brahmos ng copy in the works which will be most probably ready before us.

Why we didn't try that option, after all we are more close to Russians than koreans, and koreans are more close to USA than we indians.

 

[AbRaj]

This is based on a Russia s400 missile. That's why it might have been bought by UAE it's like a mini s-400 for the most part. The Russians gave away Koreans a lot of tech. They already have a brahmos ng copy in the works which will be most probably ready before us.

Why do you think that it’s a S400 copy ? It’s a MRSAM System similar to Barak SAM system of Israel or MRSAM of DRDO-IAI. S400 is much more complex system

 

[randomradio]

Koreans are way too ahead of us in engineering arena. We were advertising about our hypersonic missile for a decade or more than that( if you take in to consideration of AVATAR, its almost 2 decades), we still on drawing board and they are ending towards testing a hypersonic missile.

No they are not. They are way behind us.

 

[randomradio]

Why do you think that it’s a S400 copy ? It’s a MRSAM System similar to Barak SAM system of Israel or MRSAM of DRDO-IAI. S400 is much more complex system

The missile used is the S-300/400's 9M96E1. The Block 2 will bring in the 9M96E2. It's a massive step up over the PAC-3.

They also have the L-SAM, which uses the 48N6E. So the KM-SAM and L-SAM are together equivalent to the S-300. If they add 40N6 to the mix, then they get their very own S-400, but using AESA radars.

Once L-SAM reaches full maturity, it's gonna be a step up over the S-400 too.

 

[Chain Smoker]

BTW they just sold their SAM SYSTEM to UAE for whooping 3.4 Billion USD.

here is the news

South Korea and the UAE sign a $3.5 billion Air-defence missile deal​

2022-01-17

The head of the Defense Acquisition Program Department, Kang Eun-ho, told reporters Sunday in Abu Dhabi that South Korea has agreed to sell the Cheongju-2 medium-range surface-to-air missiles to the UAE.

An informed source told Bloomberg that the value of the deal amounted to 3.5 billion dollars.

The signing of the deal came on the sidelines of South Korean President Moon Jae-in's visit to the UAE, and his meeting with Prime Minister Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid.

Moon Jae-in's visit to the UAE is part of his tour of the Middle East, which will last a week and include Egypt and Saudi Arabia.

The deal demonstrated South Korea's growing position as a growing source of technological and cultural exports. South Korea was the world's largest arms exporter between 2016-2020, according to the Korea Research Institute for Defense Technology Planning and Development.

During his visit to Dubai, the President of the Republic of South Korea and his wife Kim Jong Suk witnessed their country's celebration of its National Day at Expo 2020 Dubai, as part of his country's promotion to host Expo 2030


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...iles-on-mideast-trip?srnd=premium-middle-east

Cheolmae II / Cheongung (Iron Hawk)
M-SAM Medium Surface to Air Missile

Cheongung Block 2 Medium Range Surface-to-Air Missile (KM-SAM)

The United Arab Emirates said Tuesday that it will buy mid-range missiles from South Korea in what would be Seoul’s largest arms sale worth nearly 4 trillion won ($3.5 billion).

The Middle East country would be the first to purchase the surface-to-air Korean missile overseas, known as Cheongung, which local reports there described it as one of the most advanced in the world that will improve the quality of the UAE’s missile defense.

The Cheongung series, deployed in 2015 to hit targets flying 15 kilometers high and below, complement Korea’s missile defense, through which a Patriot missile intercepts threats flying as high as 20 kilometers, while the Terminal High Altitude Area Defense system eyes targets at least 40 kilometers high.

The Chengung series comes in two versions – one for aircraft and the other for ballistic missiles. Abu Dhabi is buying the second version to bolster its air defense, though it did not elaborate on how many missiles it is bringing in to upgrade it.

A complete Cheongung battery comprises a transporter launcher carrying eight missiles with a flight range of 40 kilometers, radar and a command vehicle. The Cheongung series is believed to be able to withstand extreme weather conditions and electromagnetic interference.

The Cheongung reportedly outperforms the US-made Patriot system because it is quicker to aim at a second target after the initial fire.

S. Korea sells missiles to UAE in record arms sale

Some high quality videos from YT

They test their systems very comprehensively.

And some people call Indian Military zoo.

 

[Arctic Wolf]

That's why it might have been bought by UAE it's like a mini s-400 for the most part.

I think this was a joint development between South Korea and Russia. The Russian side of the project became the S350 Vityaz, and the Korean side became the KM-SAM, which was then followed the KM-SAM Block 2, which is the system that is being exported to the UAE.

For the KM-SAM Block 2, the range of its missiles are more comparable to (but better than) the Patriot PAC3 than the S400.

They already have a brahmos ng copy in the works which will be most probably ready before us.

So, their version of the Yakhont/Oniks (it isn't a Brahmos NG copy) is already ready and it was first unveiled to the public through a test (from 1:38 in the video; other videos: 1) in September last year. It is similar in dimensions and range to the Brahmos NG, but while the Korean missile has already been tested successfully, Brahmos NG is yet to be developed. So yeah, the Koreans have developed a Brahmos NG type missile before us.

No they are not. They are way behind us.

Perhaps it depends on specific weapons. They are way behind us in terms of ballistic missile technology probably. But in cruise missiles, maybe not so much. They have a system equivalent to the Brahmos, on which we pride ourselves. However we have nothing similiar to their Hyunmoo-3.

As for hypersonic missiles, we are, as of now ahead, since we have inducted the Shaurya and we have tested the HSTDV multiple times and they hven't tested any prototype yet. But in December last year, they did unveil a prototype called Hycore, which they plan to test this year and to induct by the mid-2020s, which is the same time frame around which we plan to induct hypersonic missiles. And Korea's defense development has shown that they are rather good at catching up.

In most other defense-related areas, such as ships/submarines, armoured vehicles etc. they are comfortably ahead of us.

 

[randomradio]

Perhaps it depends on specific weapons. They are way behind us in terms of ballistic missile technology probably. But in cruise missiles, maybe not so much. They have a system equivalent to the Brahmos, on which we pride ourselves. However we have nothing similiar to their Hyunmoo-3.

Their new "Brahmos copy" is basically the resized Yakhont that will also be the basis for Brahmos M.

The Hyunmoo-3 is basically the Nirbhay, we have more advanced versions in the works that combines turbofan with ramjet.
You can bet the Hyunmoo-3 had pretty significant American involvement.

In most other defense-related areas, such as ships/submarines, armoured vehicles etc. they are comfortably ahead of us.

Anything to do with flying, we are ahead.

 

[Arctic Wolf]

Their new "Brahmos copy" is basically the resized Yakhont that will also be the basis for Brahmos M.

Brahmos itself is based on the Onyx. But their resized "Brahmos copy" has already been developed, not under development as mentioned by another user, which is what my original reply meantto clarify.

The Hyunmoo-3 is basically the Nirbhay,

Rather, its basically the Tomahawk.

But the important difference is that the Hyunmoo 3 has been in service since 2006/2007, while Nirbhay was tested for the first time in 2013. Not to mention, Nirbhay hasn't been tested to its maximum range yet. And again, the more advanced version (which I think is the LR-LACM) is yet to be tested,

Anything to do with flying, we are ahead.

Yes. But then in some areas, we do lag behind them (ex. Hyunmoo 3/Nirbhay). It maybe due to difference in requirements for all I know. But as said earlier, we were ahead of Korea in most other military fields as well; they are just good at catching up.

 

[Ashwin]

So, their version of the Yakhont/Oniks (it isn't a Brahmos NG copy) is already ready and it was first unveiled to the public through a test (from 1:38 in the video; other videos: 1) in September last year. It is similar in dimensions and range to the Brahmos NG, but while the Korean missile has already been tested successfully, Brahmos NG is yet to be developed. So yeah, the Koreans have developed a Brahmos NG type missile before us

We didn't go ahead with NG version earlier because there isn't enough interest. The order book was full. Army and navy are fully satisfied with full sized brahmos. And it's not a one to one comparison with NG and original version. Less range, less speed and smaller warhead. Probably at a similar cost.

Koreans got the help of Russians which was agreed upon a decade back. It's yet to get deployed and details are sparse.

However we have nothing similiar to their Hyunmoo-3.

We prioritised supersonic missiles. If we have wanted to serial produce Nirbhay it would have happened before with imported engine and navigation.

Nirbhay hasn't been tested to its maximum range yet.

Wrong, already tested. From the start itself Nirbhay was TD program. All flight profiles were proven including anti shipping version with seeker. New program LRLACM ia under development which is according service requirements.

SK is a wealthy industrialised nation with high tech R&D access. They yearly spend $4b per year on defence R&D which is more than twice of DRDO budget. It's an unfair comparison. They can catch up in any area with double speed if they wanted to.

 

[randomradio]

Brahmos itself is based on the Onyx. But their resized "Brahmos copy" has already been developed, not under development as mentioned by another user, which is what my original reply meantto clarify.

The Brahmos M and the Korean version are simply licensed versions of an existing Russian missile. The resized Russian version of Brahmos M finished development years ago.

Rather, its basically the Tomahawk.

But the important difference is that the Hyunmoo 3 has been in service since 2006/2007, while Nirbhay was tested for the first time in 2013. Not to mention, Nirbhay hasn't been tested to its maximum range yet. And again, the more advanced version (which I think is the LR-LACM) is yet to be tested,

So there's no point in comparing the industrial standards.

Yes. But then in some areas, we do lag behind them (ex. Hyunmoo 3/Nirbhay). It maybe due to difference in requirements for all I know. But as said earlier, we were ahead of Korea in most other military fields as well; they are just good at catching up.

The Indian military is lagging behind the Korean military in deployment of this capability. The Indian MIC is ahead of the Korean MIC irrespective of their deployed capability.

I don't think we were ahead of the Koreans in many fields. They had a developed MIC before we did. Like, when we started the Arjun program, the Koreans were inducting their own tank. They already had a very well developed ship building industry before we even began, and so on. In some other areas, our priorities were different. For example, we chased after SSBNs, they chased after SSKs.

But when it comes to missile tech, they are woefully behind. Their CMs are foreign, their SAMs are foreign, their BMs are entry versions, and so on.