Kalyani 155 million USD Artillery Export

F-35B is designed for 4 per day.

How many do you think AL-31FP & a non-composite airframe can manage?

Sortie rate depends on the time spent in the air. The Flanker can do just 1 13-14 hour long sortie in 1 day or 7 short range sorties a day, like CAS. Neither the engine nor composite airframe matter because pilots are the limiting factor. A few days of flying doesn't affect the airframe or engine, but how long can pilots stay active.

The real difference is how many days it can sustain such a rate.

Against more modern aircraft, the Flanker will start losing from the 4th or 5th day onwards. But one would expect the air war is pretty much over in the first 2-3 days.

Otoh, turnaround time is of the greatest significance. Modern aircraft have superior turnaround time. But the Flanker can compensate for that with greater endurance.
 
Low oil revenues pushed back their plans.

It's a normal rate for an aircraft still in development. It's under LRIP.

They are in trouble though.


^^ This is mostly on the civilian side, but in many areas, the Russians now have to set up entire new industries & supply chains. That's hard even without sanctions.

That small L band capability on Flankers is not sufficient to detect stealth aircraft. It's mostly IFF.

IFF against what though. To determine that a contact is not sending an IFF tone back you first need to be aware of the contact's presence & its bearing. Otherwise IFF cannot work. Against VLO targets, only way to do that is with a long-wavelength radar, that's why Su-57 also carries this.

However you cannot blast the airspace with radar and expect to remain undetected...unless that isn't a problem for your doctrine.

AWACS or drone AEWs. IR doesn't help.

Depends. When you're deep-striking into contested airspace you cannot always count on AWACS support.

Drone AEWs are decades away.

For the Russians this is even harder. As it exists, they have next to no capability to operate beyond line of sight of their GCI stations. It's the reason why even 10 months into the war they are still unable to establish complete air superiority over Ukraine.

Power is relative to the TRM, not combined power of the entire radar.

Potato potahto. You still have to cool the entire array.

It's normal. It's all software. 100Km is relative to the RCS of the target, even this is normal.

Not at this frequency.

To track objects at 100 kms with Ka-band you'd have to pump truly insane amounts of power which just makes no sense. Why would you even want to do that? Due to terrain & curvature of the Earth, the only 100-km line of sight a T-14 would even have is in the sky. The tank has no means of engaging airborne targets at those ranges.

Even dedicated SPAAG vehicles do not.

The Afghanit radar is at best a Russian equivalent of ELM-2133 WindGuard that's used with Trophy. Nothing more. Rest is all Russian fanboy hogwash.
 
Um, there were no AWACS in the exercises. Only a transport pretending to be one on the Blue Team.

Sorry I confused the 2005 exercise with 2004. It was in 2005 where E-3s were involved.

Sortie rate depends on the time spent in the air. The Flanker can do just 1 13-14 hour long sortie in 1 day or 7 short range sorties a day, like CAS. Neither the engine nor composite airframe matter because pilots are the limiting factor. A few days of flying doesn't affect the airframe or engine, but how long can pilots stay active.

The real difference is how many days it can sustain such a rate.

Against more modern aircraft, the Flanker will start losing from the 4th or 5th day onwards. But one would expect the air war is pretty much over in the first 2-3 days.

Otoh, turnaround time is of the greatest significance. Modern aircraft have superior turnaround time. But the Flanker can compensate for that with greater endurance.

The F-35 sortie rate generation is still meant to be twice that of F/A-18 - all other things being equal.

I don't think modern wars will be as quick as we once thought they would. China is digging in for a long war spanning months...or however long it takes to wear us out.
 
They are in trouble though.


^^ This is mostly on the civilian side, but in many areas, the Russians now have to set up entire new industries & supply chains. That's hard even without sanctions.

Shouldn't matter. Civilian production is dependent on profits, military production is not. So the rules are different.

IFF against what though. To determine that a contact is not sending an IFF tone back you first need to be aware of the contact's presence & its bearing. Otherwise IFF cannot work. Against VLO targets, only way to do that is with a long-wavelength radar, that's why Su-57 also carries this.

However you cannot blast the airspace with radar and expect to remain undetected...unless that isn't a problem for your doctrine.

IFF is a secondary sensor. After you have detected a bogie via a different sensor, you then use the IFF functionality.

Depends. When you're deep-striking into contested airspace you cannot always count on AWACS support.

Drone AEWs are decades away.

For the Russians this is even harder. As it exists, they have next to no capability to operate beyond line of sight of their GCI stations. It's the reason why even 10 months into the war they are still unable to establish complete air superiority over Ukraine.

Hence the importance of fighter radars. Penetration drones can carry radars too.

The Russians don't seem to be interested in establishing full air superiority. They probably believe if they take over Ukrainian skies, then there's a high risk of NATO intervention or even supply of high-end SAMs and fighters. They probably want to give UAF the ability to protect their HQs to some extent. If not for that, they could have attacked all the main nodes long ago. They made an example of one such HQ thereby killing a lot of officers at once, after which even the Ukrainians stopped attacking Russian officers. There's a lot of politics going on behind the scenes. You can say that the Russians have barely used even 10 or 20% of their capabilities.

Potato potahto. You still have to cool the entire array.

Exaclty. Which is why it's a big deal to make a radar that small.

Not at this frequency.

To track objects at 100 kms with Ka-band you'd have to pump truly insane amounts of power which just makes no sense. Why would you even want to do that? Due to terrain & curvature of the Earth, the only 100-km line of sight a T-14 would even have is in the sky. The tank has no means of engaging airborne targets at those ranges.

Even dedicated SPAAG vehicles do not.

The Afghanit radar is at best a Russian equivalent of ELM-2133 WindGuard that's used with Trophy. Nothing more. Rest is all Russian fanboy hogwash.

Frequency has nothing to do with it. You can even track 10000 targets if you have the software and processing. You can even track a million. It all happens at the speed of light after all. The number of targets tracked is typically determined by the the limits of processing and reality. Like, there's no need to track 10000 or a million targets. 1000 for fighters is easily done now. 100 for a tank should be a good enough number.

Why would the Armata want to track targets at 100Km? The LoS itself is 8-12Km against ground targets and helicopters. Small drones will be a few Km at best. For mmW, the Afghanit's radars are big enough. The radar will be required to detect and track very small targets like ATGMs and HEAT, even APFSDS, from a few Kms away.
 
Sorry I confused the 2005 exercise with 2004. It was in 2005 where E-3s were involved.

It was just an escort mission. CIs were useless after a point. Anyway, I wasn't arguing against your points. Most of these international exercises are pretty much useless. Only Malabar has seen some use, it's pretty decent. At least we will know not to kill each other during a joint war, somewhat.

The F-35 sortie rate generation is still meant to be twice that of F/A-18 - all other things being equal.

I don't think modern wars will be as quick as we once thought they would. China is digging in for a long war spanning months...or however long it takes to wear us out.

Look, it's pretty unfair to be comparing a modern jet like the F-35 with the MKI. The MKI was in service long before the F-35 even made first flight, while being based on a jet that was inducted long before the F-35 was even a concept. The MKI should be compared to other jets like the F-15 and F-16, and the Teens are not really that impressive in comparison. The Malaysians chose the MKM over the SH, 'cause they discovered the MKMs to be far superior. And both our enemies have old jets too, so the MKI is competing with those jets in terms of availability, turnaround and sortie generation, not the F-35.

The same with the Rafale vs F-35, the F-35 is more impressive, but it's not by a lot, to the point where it won't make a difference during war, even though the Rafale is 15 years older.

Even if the ground war is not quick, the air war will be decided quickly. The loser will be reduced to performing air defence and CAS if they are lucky, maybe not even that. Ukraine war isn't a good example, it's just the Russians screwing up.
 
Shouldn't matter. Civilian production is dependent on profits, military production is not. So the rules are different.

A lot of the technologies are the same though. Even civilian production need not depend on profits if you are state-running everything which is what Russia does. All aerospace manufacturers, defence or civilian, are part of UAC.

IFF is a secondary sensor. After you have detected a bogie via a different sensor, you then use the IFF functionality.

If that was the case there would've been no need to equip the jet with L-band AESA arrays which are relatively large (spanning length of leading edge). Small dedicated antennas (which is how Western jets do it) would've been enough.

The Russians don't have many other sensors to depend upon. Their networked warfighting doesn't work. They plan to use the L-band to see objects which IFF can then interrogate at a much farther range than the X-band can. If the L-band isn't there, the IFF wouldn't know what to interrogate until its too late.

Hence the importance of fighter radars. Penetration drones can carry radars too.

Hence the importance of VLO, EODAS, EOTS and loyal wingmen.

The Russians don't seem to be interested in establishing full air superiority. They probably believe if they take over Ukrainian skies, then there's a high risk of NATO intervention or even supply of high-end SAMs and fighters. They probably want to give UAF the ability to protect their HQs to some extent. If not for that, they could have attacked all the main nodes long ago. They made an example of one such HQ thereby killing a lot of officers at once, after which even the Ukrainians stopped attacking Russian officers. There's a lot of politics going on behind the scenes. You can say that the Russians have barely used even 10 or 20% of their capabilities.

The West is gonna supply Ukraine with everything they need to defeat the Russians. At this point, with very minimal air presence, something like NASAMS is not really necessary to beat back the Russians. What's necessary is precise indirect fires - which is what HIMARS is delivering to devastating effect.

The Ukrainians have already taken the war to infrastructure that's been in Russian hands since 2014 (Kerch bridge) and sovereign Russian territory (Millerovo air base attack in Rostov) using less sophisticated means.

The Russians are losing the ground war due to logistics lines being pinched and stockpiles being destroyed by HIMARS. If they had the capability to carry out an air campaign, they would've done it by now - at least to take out the HIMARS and other artillery positions.

They have a very limited ability to operate beyond LoS of GCI stations, as the inputs they rely upon to operate beyond that are very sketchy and ad-hoc.


Exaclty. Which is why it's a big deal to make a radar that small.

I don't get it - this was done by the Israelis decades ago. Even we have done it with BFSR AESA version. What's the big deal? It's a low power radar that doesn't need much cooling.

The gold standard is still fighter FCR.

Frequency has nothing to do with it. You can even track 10000 targets if you have the software and processing. You can even track a million. It all happens at the speed of light after all. The number of targets tracked is typically determined by the the limits of processing and reality. Like, there's no need to track 10000 or a million targets. 1000 for fighters is easily done now. 100 for a tank should be a good enough number.

Not talking about no of targets, but about range.

Higher frequency presents you with diminishing returns at longer ranges. A Ka-band sensor to track something at 100 kms makes no sense.

Why would the Armata want to track targets at 100Km? The LoS itself is 8-12Km against ground targets and helicopters. Small drones will be a few Km at best. For mmW, the Afghanit's radars are big enough. The radar will be required to detect and track very small targets like ATGMs and HEAT, even APFSDS, from a few Kms away.

That's what I'm asking - the supposed specs of this radar on the internet make no sense. It's all jingoistic hogwash.

Look, it's pretty unfair to be comparing a modern jet like the F-35 with the MKI. The MKI was in service long before the F-35 even made first flight, while being based on a jet that was inducted long before the F-35 was even a concept. The MKI should be compared to other jets like the F-15 and F-16, and the Teens are not really that impressive in comparison. The Malaysians chose the MKM over the SH, 'cause they discovered the MKMs to be far superior. And both our enemies have old jets too, so the MKI is competing with those jets in terms of availability, turnaround and sortie generation, not the F-35.

The same with the Rafale vs F-35, the F-35 is more impressive, but it's not by a lot, to the point where it won't make a difference during war, even though the Rafale is 15 years older.

Even if the ground war is not quick, the air war will be decided quickly. The loser will be reduced to performing air defence and CAS if they are lucky, maybe not even that. Ukraine war isn't a good example, it's just the Russians screwing up.

Fair enough - but single engine jets are kings of turn around times. That's why they are always the backbone of Air Defence regardless of whether you are US, India or China.
 
A lot of the technologies are the same though. Even civilian production need not depend on profits if you are state-running everything which is what Russia does. All aerospace manufacturers, defence or civilian, are part of UAC.

Military production is nowhere near as efficient as what's necessary for civilians. Car production goes into millions per year. Tank production is a few hundred.

If that was the case there would've been no need to equip the jet with L-band AESA arrays which are relatively large (spanning length of leading edge). Small dedicated antennas (which is how Western jets do it) would've been enough.

The Russians don't have many other sensors to depend upon. Their networked warfighting doesn't work. They plan to use the L-band to see objects which IFF can then interrogate at a much farther range than the X-band can. If the L-band isn't there, the IFF wouldn't know what to interrogate until its too late.

They will rely on primary fighter and AWACS radars for detection. Interrogation comes after.

Given the shape of the L-band radar, it's not going to do anything more than some low-range detection or long-range interrogation. One of the main advantages of L-band is it is easily hidden behind background noise, there's a lot of high power L-band in the sky, so it's best use case is still IFF, which can go undetected if the receiver is not tuned to it.

It should be usable for communication too, perhaps some limited EW, even jamming.

Hence the importance of VLO, EODAS, EOTS and loyal wingmen.

Okay, I'm not arguing against those. It's all necessary. But we were discussing how radar will be more important in the future.

My point is you can make do without all those, but not without radar. The best MAWS capability also comes with radar. And radar is advancing to new heights. There won't be just X band anymore, we will even have mmW and terahertz radars.

The West is gonna supply Ukraine with everything they need to defeat the Russians. At this point, with very minimal air presence, something like NASAMS is not really necessary to beat back the Russians. What's necessary is precise indirect fires - which is what HIMARS is delivering to devastating effect.

The Ukrainians have already taken the war to infrastructure that's been in Russian hands since 2014 (Kerch bridge) and sovereign Russian territory (Millerovo air base attack in Rostov) using less sophisticated means.

The Russians are losing the ground war due to logistics lines being pinched and stockpiles being destroyed by HIMARS. If they had the capability to carry out an air campaign, they would've done it by now - at least to take out the HIMARS and other artillery positions.

They have a very limited ability to operate beyond LoS of GCI stations, as the inputs they rely upon to operate beyond that are very sketchy and ad-hoc.


The Russians screwed up by first not bringing in infantry and ADS for their offensive on Kiev, followed by not bringing their infantry in the south. Everything that Ukraine has is useless to stop Russia had the Russians taken things far more seriously. The effect of HIMARS is overblown.

That GPS hackjob is for coordination with non-Russian forces on the ground who don't have access to Russian navigation. Let's not forget that pretty much all of the offensive is being conducted by PMC and militias, not the RAF. The pilots will be able to compensate for errors in positioning if both are carrying the same navigation system. Western propaganda ki jai.

Pretty much everything you are absorbing from Western sources is nonsense. You will have to make your own assessment after listening to bipartisan and partisan experts and relate it to the situation on the ground.

I don't get it - this was done by the Israelis decades ago. Even we have done it with BFSR AESA version. What's the big deal? It's a low power radar that doesn't need much cooling.

The gold standard is still fighter FCR.

Not in terms of size. BFSR is not inside a tank, it's in ambient air tempratures. Heat inside a tank is tremendous. Even if the Israelis did it early on, the Russians have caught up with AESA tech, my point. You were referring to how Russians are nowhere when it comes to AESA.

Not talking about no of targets, but about range.

Higher frequency presents you with diminishing returns at longer ranges. A Ka-band sensor to track something at 100 kms makes no sense.

A tank doesn't need 100Km though. Even if it can do that, there will be an instrumented range.

Fair enough - but single engine jets are kings of turn around times. That's why they are always the backbone of Air Defence regardless of whether you are US, India or China.

Turnaround for air policing and interception is quick for SE by design.

The F-35 can be used for air policing, but I bet it depends on whether it can actually fight the adversary when it comes down to it. Which is why Gen Hostage said without F-22s the F-35s are irrelevant. So, at least when it comes to Russia and China, the US expects to operate in a contested airspace. With China, parity is expected.
 
Military production is nowhere near as efficient as what's necessary for civilians. Car production goes into millions per year. Tank production is a few hundred.

Aviation is still limited though - especially in a relatively small market like Russia. Some of the items requested are stuff like landing gear & tyres.

They will rely on primary fighter and AWACS radars for detection. Interrogation comes after.

Given the shape of the L-band radar, it's not going to do anything more than some low-range detection or long-range interrogation. One of the main advantages of L-band is it is easily hidden behind background noise, there's a lot of high power L-band in the sky, so it's best use case is still IFF, which can go undetected if the receiver is not tuned to it.

It should be usable for communication too, perhaps some limited EW, even jamming.

They've been using the technique since Su-35's early days so hard to imagine West wouldn't wise up to it.

What we cannot deny is that there is a fundamental difference with the way Russia expects to employ its 5th gen fighters compared to how the West does it.

Okay, I'm not arguing against those. It's all necessary. But we were discussing how radar will be more important in the future.

My point is you can make do without all those, but not without radar. The best MAWS capability also comes with radar. And radar is advancing to new heights. There won't be just X band anymore, we will even have mmW and terahertz radars.

What we know is that there is a quantum leap in the capability of passive sensors on the F-35 compared to any previous aircraft. This was despite them being 30+ years ahead of the Russians in developing AESA radars of all kinds.

That is indicative of a change in doctrine & thinking toward more passive methods of detection (which is actually a necessity brought on by a need for greater all-aspect stealth).

Another change could come with 6th gen aircraft, but at this point we can only speculate how.

Pretty much everything you are absorbing from Western sources is nonsense.

That's what I thought at first too - however, its hard to argue with results. We cannot argue with the fact that a poorly organized military with next to no Air Force support like that of Ukraine has become a peer-level threat to the Russians. The Russians are having to fight as though they are facing Hitler's well-oiled & well-drilled war machine.

If they were being defeated in a guerilla war (like Soviet-Afghan) that would've been one thing - but the Russians are actually being beaten on the open battlefield, in conventional maneuver warfare with tanks, infantry & IFVs. Excuses are hard to make in that instance.

The burden of proof for saying they are an effective fighting force is now on the Russians.

Not in terms of size. BFSR is not inside a tank, it's in ambient air tempratures. Heat inside a tank is tremendous. Even if the Israelis did it early on, the Russians have caught up with AESA tech, my point. You were referring to how Russians are nowhere when it comes to AESA.

The Russians have a few prototypes is all. Afghanit is one of the problem systems that's being hard to realize.

At the present, the T-14 radars are in no better position than something like the Zhuk AESAs.

What my point is though, is that this application is a relatively unsophisticated one. the capabilities are pretty straightforward - tracking objects above certain velocities for purposes of telling the APS when to launch a countermeasure, nothing more. The kind of heat these arrays generate can be removed by a 120mm computer fan.

You cannot compare the sophistication of these with something like an APG-81.

A tank doesn't need 100Km though. Even if it can do that, there will be an instrumented range.

That's what I'm saying - the frequency used by these radars are tailored so that the vector of a target is updated as quickly as possible so the APS has sufficient time to launch AND that it does not launch needlessly i.e. against a projectile that is not headed toward the tank.

The question of long range does not even arise.
 
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They've been using the technique since Su-35's early days so hard to imagine West wouldn't wise up to it.

What we cannot deny is that there is a fundamental difference with the way Russia expects to employ its 5th gen fighters compared to how the West does it.

There's no difference. Both Russia and China ape the West. The SU were different.

What we know is that there is a quantum leap in the capability of passive sensors on the F-35 compared to any previous aircraft. This was despite them being 30+ years ahead of the Russians in developing AESA radars of all kinds.

That is indicative of a change in doctrine & thinking toward more passive methods of detection (which is actually a necessity brought on by a need for greater all-aspect stealth).

Another change could come with 6th gen aircraft, but at this point we can only speculate how.

A lot of fluff. Passive systems are good, but the F-35 cannot beat the F-22. So what good are all the cool new electronics against an F-22 equivalent adversary?

6th gen, AF-NGAD, should change the way the US fights wars. The Russians are also working on something extreme, which is tentatively expected to fly in 2025. The B-21 should be far more impressive than the NGAD though, they plan to show it off tomorrow, official unveiling.

That's what I thought at first too - however, its hard to argue with results. We cannot argue with the fact that a poorly organized military with next to no Air Force support like that of Ukraine has become a peer-level threat to the Russians. The Russians are having to fight as though they are facing Hitler's well-oiled & well-drilled war machine.

If they were being defeated in a guerilla war (like Soviet-Afghan) that would've been one thing - but the Russians are actually being beaten on the open battlefield, in conventional maneuver warfare with tanks, infantry & IFVs. Excuses are hard to make in that instance.

The burden of proof for saying they are an effective fighting force is now on the Russians.

Can't fight if there are no relief troops. The troops that entered Ukraine back in Feb are still on the battlefield. Can you imagine the fatigue?

The Russians should finally get enough troops to employ their Deep Battle doctrine soon.

The Russians have a few prototypes is all. Afghanit is one of the problem systems that's being hard to realize.

At the present, the T-14 radars are in no better position than something like the Zhuk AESAs.

What my point is though, is that this application is a relatively unsophisticated one. the capabilities are pretty straightforward - tracking objects above certain velocities for purposes of telling the APS when to launch a countermeasure, nothing more. The kind of heat these arrays generate can be removed by a 120mm computer fan.

You cannot compare the sophistication of these with something like an APG-81.

The Afganit's radar should be functioning fine though, problems will be elsewhere, like reaction time, accuracy and reliability of the system as a whole.

That's what I'm saying - the frequency used by these radars are tailored so that the vector of a target is updated as quickly as possible so the APS has sufficient time to launch AND that it does not launch needlessly i.e. against a projectile that is not headed toward the tank.

The question of long range does not even arise.

Sure, but you brought up the range, I didn't. So we aren't even arguing this point.
 
There's no difference. Both Russia and China ape the West. The SU were different.

I don't see any L-band radars on the F-35. It's a continuation of doctrine developed for Su-35 - a non-VLO aircraft.

A lot of fluff. Passive systems are good, but the F-35 cannot beat the F-22. So what good are all the cool new electronics against an F-22 equivalent adversary?

I don't think any existing non-American fighter can reliably get first-look first-shot against F-35.

Can't fight if there are no relief troops. The troops that entered Ukraine back in Feb are still on the battlefield. Can you imagine the fatigue?

The Russians should finally get enough troops to employ their Deep Battle doctrine soon.

Would've been better if RuAF was involved. But for whatever reason that is not an option for them.

Now only a general mobilization order can save them...again, they've made Ukraine into a peer-level threat.