Kalyani 155 million USD Artillery Export

Indian Private sectors are playing a big part in Army modernization plans.

Read somewhere our private sector is have capacity to produce 5000 pinaka rockets / year.

Now ATAGS about 1 per day.

All sort of mobility platforms..

Granades, bullets., bullet proof vests,.

For Airforce, LCH, LUH, LCA, SAMs,..

Weapons which were importing previously, now we successful in designing like astra, saaw, rudram will help us in sustained war waging capabilities.

Atleast a decade is necessary before we fully realized it's induction.

Latest drones have muddled the war scenario..
Whoever takes advantage of drone & anti drone warefare will change the course of war, in the cheapest way possible.

Off course we have overwhelming numbers of cruise missiles we can strike a lot of targets..
Like how Russia rained down missiles.

We also need to take care of the chinese rocket force, otherwise we ll be at the receiving end.
 
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Block-4 is TR3 right?

No, TR3 is necessary to begin B4. So it's the final form of the B3.

Do we know if 101KS-V uses QWIP? Never heard anything official, just people speculating that since the Americans & French implemented it, the Russians will too.

Russia is significantly behind France when it comes to Imaging IR solutions. T-90 MBTs are actually fitted with French Thales thermal imagers (Catherine FC) because the Russian ones suck.

Catherine is back from the 90s, primarily for export grade tanks, plus their old stuff. The Russians have since upgraded the T-90s with thier own stuff.

KS-V is QWIP, official confirmation.

Am I missing something here? This is just the 101KS-U MAWS side arrays. They were there since the start.

The large glass window is mostly a means of mounting the system flush with the airframe within an angular housing instead of a rounded window poking out like on Su-35, but the actual sensor inside seems the same size & aperture as the SOAR system on Su-35, I doubt if even a FoV improvement is there.

EcibraUUcAEXFDo.jpg


View attachment 25196

The sensors on the Su-35 and 57 are not common.

You can see that it's a brand new sensor.
main-qimg-1fd79c3af80c2e42cfcc35a3f7ceee2a-pjlq.jpg


They have used the entire space compared to earlier.

Yeah they're already digging through T-62s for Ukraine. The more modern ones were probably already cannibalized in the 30 years since USSR ended to keep the current ones running.

The T-62s are very good tanks. Although, I was referring to T-72s and T-80s. You can't cannibalise the hull, you can only melt it.

Even Yasen & Borei were Soviet designs tbh. The 80s was when the last crop of properly-educated & trained Russian engineers were added to the workforce. Everything since then has been lacklustre.

Russians have a tough road ahead.

The Yasen and Borei designs were completely changed, they were only paper designs under the SU. Anyway, my point was that's where they spent their money back in the 90s.

Their land and air forces took a main development path and a stop gap path. So the main development like Su-57, S-500 and Armata started back in the early to mid 2000s for induction before 2020. In the meantime, they initiated upgrade programs for Cold War era tanks, IFVs, Flankers, S-400 etc in order to rebuild their forces back to current levels. All of these delivered 10 years earlier to their main development path, and this is what they are using now. The Americans caught them between the two phases.

The Russians are actually at the end of their tough road when it comes to modernisation. At least all the advanced stuff they have planned is now under limited service. And their peacetime modernisation expenditure was 3 times that of India's, so that plays a part too. It should have doubled by now, which is almost equal to the US peacetime procurement budget. There's never been a question about their ability to scale up.
 
Catherine is back from the 90s, primarily for export grade tanks, plus their old stuff. The Russians have since upgraded the T-90s with thier own stuff.

After the European exports were banned after 2008 and then 2014?

KS-V is QWIP, official confirmation.

I can't find anything on that, I'll take your word for it - though that still puts them behind the French because the Rafale's FSO now uses 2nd gen QWIP.

The sensors on the Su-35 and 57 are not common.

You can see that it's a brand new sensor.
View attachment 25198

They have used the entire space compared to earlier.

The above pic is just perspective.

I've seen the video of Sergei Bogdan 511 flight (where your previous snapshots are from), the sensor housing is about the same size as the pilot's helmet, same as before:

Russia_Su-57_Felon_video_still.jpg


It just has the illusion of being bigger because of that dark circle around it. Besides, we're just talking about the housing, which has been made bigger with an angular glass so it can fit flush with the airframe + be able to retain FoV despite being set deeper inside the airframe. The actual sensor inside the housing is the same size & aperture as the Su-35's SOAR suite.

It is no EODAS. Just a MAWS.

The T-62s are very good tanks. Although, I was referring to T-72s and T-80s. You can't cannibalise the hull, you can only melt it.

There's lots of stuff on tanks that undergoes wear & tear and for which you may need to cannibalize stored stuff in the absence of a steady stream of spares. Road wheels, barrels, autoloading mechanisms, tracks, ERA tiles that break off, etc etc.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating - the reason T-62s were ready was because the type hadn't been in active service for at least a decade, so the ones in reserve had no reason to be cannibalized to keep the existing ones running. The same could not be said for T-72s and T-80s, which formed the bulk of the Russian armoured force, hence actually needed a supply of spares all these years.

When you dip into reserves, your first choice would be to bring out the stuff which is either the same or the closest to what your existing crews are trained for. Unless the situation compels you otherwise.

The Yasen and Borei designs were completely changed, they were only paper designs under the SU. Anyway, my point was that's where they spent their money back in the 90s.

Subs have a long lead time - the yards had already tooled up for the next builds before the collapse. The Russians just ensured that the submarine community was largely immunized to the effects of the 2000s by throwing everything they had at them.
 
After the European exports were banned after 2008 and then 2014?

It was available for exports, not for Russian use. The Russians made their own for Armata and the T-90AM/M.

I can't find anything on that, I'll take your word for it - though that still puts them behind the French because the Rafale's FSO now uses 2nd gen QWIP.

The "generation" tag shouldn't matter. What's first for someone could be third for someone else. There are other important parameters too.

The above pic is just perspective.

I've seen the video of Sergei Bogdan 511 flight (where your previous snapshots are from), the sensor housing is about the same size as the pilot's helmet, same as before:

Russia_Su-57_Felon_video_still.jpg


It just has the illusion of being bigger because of that dark circle around it. Besides, we're just talking about the housing, which has been made bigger with an angular glass so it can fit flush with the airframe + be able to retain FoV despite being set deeper inside the airframe. The actual sensor inside the housing is the same size & aperture as the Su-35's SOAR suite.

It is no EODAS. Just a MAWS.

I suppose they wanted to show off what's below the paint there. Here's a painted version. But they are saying this jet has a production standard suite.
img_58-2_58.png


There's lots of stuff on tanks that undergoes wear & tear and for which you may need to cannibalize stored stuff in the absence of a steady stream of spares. Road wheels, barrels, autoloading mechanisms, tracks, ERA tiles that break off, etc etc.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating - the reason T-62s were ready was because the type hadn't been in active service for at least a decade, so the ones in reserve had no reason to be cannibalized to keep the existing ones running. The same could not be said for T-72s and T-80s, which formed the bulk of the Russian armoured force, hence actually needed a supply of spares all these years.

When you dip into reserves, your first choice would be to bring out the stuff which is either the same or the closest to what your existing crews are trained for. Unless the situation compels you otherwise.

It's about the time it takes. Making a hull takes a very long time, but making the stuff inside the tank takes very little time. So these tanks can quickly be painted, upgraded and used for war. What they can't do with the tank is use it for 15+ years, but what they can do is either use it in battle or buy time for modernisation.

Subs have a long lead time - the yards had already tooled up for the next builds before the collapse. The Russians just ensured that the submarine community was largely immunized to the effects of the 2000s by throwing everything they had at them.

That's only for the hull. Even then, the Yasen started construction in 1993 with only 10% of the hull completed, the original launch date was 2 years later, but restarted again only in 2003 with a 2010 launch. It's basically all Russian. Borei shared the same fate. So although the plans date back to the Soviet era, the subs stopped being Soviet after the fall because construction stopped and had to be restarted again many years later, with significant redesigns.
 
It was available for exports, not for Russian use. The Russians made their own for Armata and the T-90AM/M.

We are talking about Russian use. 2008 Georgia intervention & 2014 Crimea invasion, both elicited sanctions on exports to Russia.

As late as 2018 we ordered new-build Catherines for our T-90s. So whatever the Russians came up with, it was probably worse.

The "generation" tag shouldn't matter. What's first for someone could be third for someone else. There are other important parameters too.

We don't know any other parameters. France/Thales is a world leader in IR. When they've worked with a tech longer than the Russians have, its very likely its much better.

I suppose they wanted to show off what's below the paint there. Here's a painted version. But they are saying this jet has a production standard suite.
View attachment 25208

They're just working on operationalizing the stuff already installed, nothing new being added. The configuration of 101KS "Atoll" is fixed long ago.

And the system has no fundamentally new method of gathering data or displaying it compared to Su-35, its just an incremental improvement. For example even with QWIP the 101KS-V is still a nose-mounted IRST with a limited FoV, just like OLS-35. If they were implementing these IRSTs all over the airframe (or at least on the tail like DDM-NG) it would have been something new but they're not doing it.

Probably because they don't have a way of stitching together all that & displaying the information in a way that's tactically relevant. The amount of stuff you can show on a screen is always limited, and they still aren't confident of letting go of the HUD, that goes to show how capable and/or how reliable ZSh-10 HMDS is meant to be. I doubt RuAF pilots are gonna be looking through the floor with that.

Nobody else except the Americans has figured this out yet. Back in the day the Soviets used to have the edge when it comes to passive detection capabilities, nowadays they are trudging along waaaay behind the Americans, and at least a few steps behind the French.

The one thing they supposedly managed to implement is the N036 AESA. I emphasize 'supposedly' because its quite evident that they are struggling with that too, they're not a 100% on the technology yet and likely won't be for a long time. That's probably why Tikhomirov is still unable to offer an AESA for the Super-MKI upgrade.
 
We are talking about Russian use. 2008 Georgia intervention & 2014 Crimea invasion, both elicited sanctions on exports to Russia.

As late as 2018 we ordered new-build Catherines for our T-90s. So whatever the Russians came up with, it was probably worse.

If you are using export customers as the yardstick of measure, then you will get it wrong. Russian stuff they make for themselves is typically not NATO compatible, whereas exporters are primarily sold NATO-compatible equipment. They have the new Irbis-K for the gunner and Agat-MDT for the commander, giving their new tanks hunter-killer capabilities.


Plus it's now combat tested.

As for India, we don't need to change the Catherine. It would be a waste of money to replace it. Our entire tank infrastructure and training are centered around it. So even the T-72s are getting it. Catherine isn't as good as the Irbis-K.

They're just working on operationalizing the stuff already installed, nothing new being added. The configuration of 101KS "Atoll" is fixed long ago.

They don't have to change the system design, but they can bring in improvements, like an Mk1A or Mk2 version. It's been 10 years already, so any changes internally will be an obvious next step. Even the F-35 is switching over from EOTS to Advanced EOTS.

And the system has no fundamentally new method of gathering data or displaying it compared to Su-35, its just an incremental improvement. For example even with QWIP the 101KS-V is still a nose-mounted IRST with a limited FoV, just like OLS-35. If they were implementing these IRSTs all over the airframe (or at least on the tail like DDM-NG) it would have been something new but they're not doing it.

Considering how radar heavy the Su-57 is, using IR sensors instead will be a downgrade. Its MAWS is primarily about survival, ie, it's for use as an anti-missile system rather than a main sensor. With a forward-looking IRST and multiple radars, it has no need for a 360 deg IR MAWS.

Probably because they don't have a way of stitching together all that & displaying the information in a way that's tactically relevant. The amount of stuff you can show on a screen is always limited, and they still aren't confident of letting go of the HUD, that goes to show how capable and/or how reliable ZSh-10 HMDS is meant to be. I doubt RuAF pilots are gonna be looking through the floor with that.

Nobody else except the Americans has figured this out yet. Back in the day the Soviets used to have the edge when it comes to passive detection capabilities, nowadays they are trudging along waaaay behind the Americans, and at least a few steps behind the French.

As per the Russians, they haven't concentrated on sensor fusion to the same extent as the Americans. They want to make it evolutionary, as they slowly bring in automation and unmanned capabilities over the years.

The one thing they supposedlymanaged to implement is the N036 AESA. I emphasize 'supposedly' because its quite evident that they are struggling with that too, they're not a 100% on the technology yet and likely won't be for a long time. That's probably why Tikhomirov is still unable to offer an AESA for the Super-MKI upgrade.

All these stories about Russians can't do this or that mainly come out of Western media, particularly after 2014. The Russians are actually quite honest about the capabilities they have achieved, like informing the world about using less capable sensor fusion, which they didn't need to. I don't see any proof of failure in bringing in new technologies. The Armata, Adm Gorhskov and S-500 have already been deployed with AESA. The Armata carries 4 arrays, which shows they can miniaturise such technologies too.

As for MKI's radar, the Russians wanted to develop one for the IAF, meaning they wanted India to fund a Flanker AESA they can also use, but it goes contrary to the IAF's interest in indigenising the entire avionics suite. The MKI is getting a new Indian radar, and the Russians are involved in some way. (117S is very likely too. (y) )
 
If you are using export customers as the yardstick of measure, then you will get it wrong. Russian stuff they make for themselves is typically not NATO compatible, whereas exporters are primarily sold NATO-compatible equipment. They have the new Irbis-K for the gunner and Agat-MDT for the commander, giving their new tanks hunter-killer capabilities.


Plus it's now combat tested.

As for India, we don't need to change the Catherine. It would be a waste of money to replace it. Our entire tank infrastructure and training are centered around it. So even the T-72s are getting it. Catherine isn't as good as the Irbis-K.

The Leclerc had implemented hunter-killer capabilities back in the 90s (HL60 & HL70 sights combo).

Russians are always behind the tech curve - that isn't something new. The problem is, they used to be able to make up for that with numbers, but in the modern age, asymmetric threats mean that an unsophisticated tank will simply not survive. They used to pride themselves for building a T-72 at less than half the cost of an Abrams. But a $2 million T-72 is useless if a $33k NLAW shot is enough to take it out. That's why they've come around to the Western way of thinking, of equipping each tank with the best money can buy in self-defence systems.

Only problem is, this is a very expensive way of building an armoured force. West can afford it, but the Soviets even at the height of their power knew they couldn't. And today's Russia is way poorer. As a result, they have only about a dozen prototypes of Armata milling about in proving grounds across the country for almost a decade now, with serial production being "around the corner" for about 5 years now.

Considering how radar heavy the Su-57 is, using IR sensors instead will be a downgrade. Its MAWS is primarily about survival, ie, it's for use as an anti-missile system rather than a main sensor. With a forward-looking IRST and multiple radars, it has no need for a 360 deg IR MAWS.

As per the Russians, they haven't concentrated on sensor fusion to the same extent as the Americans. They want to make it evolutionary, as they slowly bring in automation and unmanned capabilities over the years.

They want to go radar-heavy on a platform that isn't even as stealthy as its counterparts? Okay, now the Russians are simply asking for it.

But then again, its possible they are simply making the best of what they have. It's just that what they have isn't much. We were right to quit this program and stopped wasting any more money on a flawed concept.

All these stories about Russians can't do this or that mainly come out of Western media, particularly after 2014. The Russians are actually quite honest about the capabilities they have achieved, like informing the world about using less capable sensor fusion, which they didn't need to. I don't see any proof of failure in bringing in new technologies. The Armata, Adm Gorhskov and S-500 have already been deployed with AESA. The Armata carries 4 arrays, which shows they can miniaturise such technologies too.

The ultimate test of an AESA is always airborne application. Implementing it in areas where size, cooling & power constraints are largely non-issues isn't much of an achievement, neither is low-power, short-range applications like for APS (and that's if we assume the Afghanit works as advertised...they've been wrestling with it for as long as T-14).

As for MKI's radar, the Russians wanted to develop one for the IAF, meaning they wanted India to fund a Flanker AESA they can also use, but it goes contrary to the IAF's interest in indigenising the entire avionics suite. The MKI is getting a new Indian radar, and the Russians are involved in some way. (117S is very likely too. (y) )

What I've heard is that the Russians aren't happy with plans to install an Indian radar (understandable). But the only radar they're prepared to offer for upgrade is the Irbis-E PESA.

Not like the Russians to throw away a program to sell 250+ radars, and then want to help us install our own.
 
The Leclerc had implemented hunter-killer capabilities back in the 90s (HL60 & HL70 sights combo).

Product of the fall of the SU. They were working on other types of tanks that were far advanced, like Obj 195.

Russians are always behind the tech curve - that isn't something new. The problem is, they used to be able to make up for that with numbers, but in the modern age, asymmetric threats mean that an unsophisticated tank will simply not survive. They used to pride themselves for building a T-72 at less than half the cost of an Abrams. But a $2 million T-72 is useless if a $33k NLAW shot is enough to take it out. That's why they've come around to the Western way of thinking, of equipping each tank with the best money can buy in self-defence systems.

The opposite. The SU were ahead of Western armour, even their technologies. But in the mid 80s, they decided to chase after night vision instead of IR, although it was meant to be taken care of through Obj 195. What's actually impressive is they managed to turn the T-72 into a Western equivalent tank via the T-90M. The T-72s were meant to be throwaway tanks, like the Mig-21 was, while their main tanks were supposed to be Obj 195 and T-80s.

Only problem is, this is a very expensive way of building an armoured force. West can afford it, but the Soviets even at the height of their power knew they couldn't. And today's Russia is way poorer. As a result, they have only about a dozen prototypes of Armata milling about in proving grounds across the country for almost a decade now, with serial production being "around the corner" for about 5 years now.

The SU was making a switch from quantity to quality at the time, which is why the Flanker is so good today.

As for the Russians, post Crimea, oil prices collapsed, so they had to budget. Due to the immediate need to rearm, they chose to buy more of their stop gap capabilities. Of course, their modern capabilities were delayed, but not across the board. Even technologies that were ready for induction were delayed in favour of cheaper stop gap measures. It's because new technologies need an ecosystem and culture built around it, and inadvertently they didn't have the time for it. Of course, that doesn't count for delays in modern programs, but it also caters to taking the time to further improve these new technologies.

They want to go radar-heavy on a platform that isn't even as stealthy as its counterparts? Okay, now the Russians are simply asking for it.

Subjective. The Russians claim the Su-57 is as stealthy as the F-22 and F-35. In any case, as an anti-missile system, it means you are already being shot at, so the radar can act as a low-power MAWS for the duration necessary to counter the missile. It can go radar silent right after.

You may have forgotten, but the IAF wanted even more radars than the Russians on the FGFA.

The ultimate test of an AESA is always airborne application. Implementing it in areas where size, cooling & power constraints are largely non-issues isn't much of an achievement, neither is low-power, short-range applications like for APS (and that's if we assume the Afghanit works as advertised...they've been wrestling with it for as long as T-14).

Implementing AESA on something like the T-14 is a lot harder than doing it on an aircraft.

APS faces other problems, not sensor. If sensors were a problem, then they wouldn't even bother wasting time on it.

What I've heard is that the Russians aren't happy with plans to install an Indian radar (understandable). But the only radar they're prepared to offer for upgrade is the Irbis-E PESA.

Not like the Russians to throw away a program to sell 250+ radars, and then want to help us install our own.

Their Irbis-E offer was an interim arrangement from half a decade ago. Russia wasn't recommended when the Indian radar choice was made. They already have a functional AESA radar, inducted long before ours will. It's not a problem for them to make one for the IAF. Our disinterest is not due to their lack of trying, we are just treading a different path. It's our age-old need to use our own technologies when it comes to utilising the EM spectrum; radars, comm systems, EW etc.
 
Product of the fall of the SU. They were working on other types of tanks that were far advanced, like Obj 195.

The opposite. The SU were ahead of Western armour, even their technologies. But in the mid 80s, they decided to chase after night vision instead of IR, although it was meant to be taken care of through Obj 195. What's actually impressive is they managed to turn the T-72 into a Western equivalent tank via the T-90M. The T-72s were meant to be throwaway tanks, like the Mig-21 was, while their main tanks were supposed to be Obj 195 and T-80s.

Obj 195 (techs from which now got rolled into T-14) was meant to replace all previous tanks. They believed they'd have the funds to do so, they didn't and still don't.

The SU was making a switch from quantity to quality at the time, which is why the Flanker is so good today.

What is the Flanker good at today? It was as much an improvement over the MiG-29 as the 29 was over the MiG-21.

There was no change in philosophy, just a gradual change in the cost of a platform due to the multitude of equipment needed to do their job. The T-72 for example is a far more sophisticated tank than the T-34...doesn't change the fact they were both built for numbers, not quality.

As for the Russians, post Crimea, oil prices collapsed, so they had to budget. Due to the immediate need to rearm, they chose to buy more of their stop gap capabilities. Of course, their modern capabilities were delayed, but not across the board. Even technologies that were ready for induction were delayed in favour of cheaper stop gap measures. It's because new technologies need an ecosystem and culture built around it, and inadvertently they didn't have the time for it. Of course, that doesn't count for delays in modern programs, but it also caters to taking the time to further improve these new technologies.

And these new technologies also somehow didn't find any export customers?

The simpler explanation is, the new techs were too complicated to be realized within the budgets they had, and they couldn't find foreign patrons would could bankroll them either. For example if India hadn't bought into the T-90 and Su-30 platforms, the Russians would still be using only T-72s and Su-27s today.

Now after the economic conditions imposed as a result of the war, the Russians are not gonna be able to implement these techs anytime soon at all. In fact the latest war is a lesson they won't soon forget: the only way the Russians know to fight a war is with quantity. Even if they had quality, they don't have the mindset, training, structure or ecosystem to take advantage of it.

Which means the tanks the Russians are gonna be building & buying for the next decade are going to be T-72B3s. Not any T-90Ms, and certainly not any T-14s. It's just not the kind of system they can afford and not the kind of warfare they are equipped for.

Subjective. The Russians claim the Su-57 is as stealthy as the F-22 and F-35.

Odd days, they claim its as stealthy as F-22 (a cursory look would tell you that's a joke). Even days, they claim its not meant to be stealthy, but to counter stealth.

What we know for sure is that IAF didn't feel like they were delivering on the VLO front. Looking at renders of AMCA (using the design it passed PDR with), IAF knows stealth when it sees it.

In any case, as an anti-missile system, it means you are already being shot at, so the radar can act as a low-power MAWS for the duration necessary to counter the missile. It can go radar silent right after.

Any electro-optic MAWS worth its pennies ought to be able to detect the plume of a missile launch without needing the jet to go active. The 101KS-U must be a terrible system if they can't even rely on it to do its basic job.

If you're implying Su-57 will use radar to guide an anti-AAM missile onto the incoming threat...well, the Russian BVR missiles suck even when it comes to dealing with a non-LO fighter target at those ranges. An incoming AAM with a far smaller signature travelling at hypersonic speeds? Good luck shooting that down.

You may have forgotten, but the IAF wanted even more radars than the Russians on the FGFA.

Internet myth.

The fanboys saw that the T-50 had radiation markings on the tail cone, and assumed this was a rear-facing radar. When they found out the markings were there because the tail contained an active jammer that was part of the 'Himalayas' ECM suite, they were disappointed, and the theory that the 'Indian FGFA will have a radar though' was invented. I was very active on forums when this was happening.

The truth is, at that point IAF was faaaar from planning for custom LRUs or sensors. Negotiations were very preliminary at the stage and didn't even get past the work share & financing arrangements before they collapsed. Detailed design & deciding on sensor fitments for FGFA was not even on the horizon yet.

Besides, we've seen the AMCA config. No extra radars anywhere. At one point we even wanted an extra IR sensor on the bottom, don't know if we still do. Work on EOTS-like kit in ongoing, but no extra active sensors. That's not our philosophy.

Implementing AESA on something like the T-14 is a lot harder than doing it on an aircraft.

APS faces other problems, not sensor. If sensors were a problem, then they wouldn't even bother wasting time on it.

The power needs of these arrays are too small, they're not that hard. And the computer only has to register targets travelling above a certain speed. It's basically like a radar-based speed gun cops use to catch overspeeders on the highway, except with a phased array antenna for greater accuracy & for tracking multiple objects. It's not that complicated a system.

Sensor is the problem - other less complicated APS like Arena-M are further along the process of production.

Their Irbis-E offer was an interim arrangement from half a decade ago. Russia wasn't recommended when the Indian radar choice was made. They already have a functional AESA radar, inducted long before ours will. It's not a problem for them to make one for the IAF. Our disinterest is not due to their lack of trying, we are just treading a different path. It's our age-old need to use our own technologies when it comes to utilising the EM spectrum; radars, comm systems, EW etc.

They claim its functioning. Fact is they never even displayed a Flanker-spec AESA at MAKS. They at least displayed the FGA-29/35, even though that was a hopeless pipedream just like the plane it was supposed to go on, MiG-35.

Like I said, if they had a solution, they display it. Doesn't matter if anyone funds it or not. Case in point is FGA-35.
 
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Obj 195 (techs from which now got rolled into T-14) was meant to replace all previous tanks. They believed they'd have the funds to do so, they didn't and still don't.

It's a Soviet program, so it wasn't something Russia could afford in the first place. Armata became the more affordable replacement. It's at least cheaper than what we are paying for our T-90S.

What is the Flanker good at today? It was as much an improvement over the MiG-29 as the 29 was over the MiG-21.

There was no change in philosophy, just a gradual change in the cost of a platform due to the multitude of equipment needed to do their job. The T-72 for example is a far more sophisticated tank than the T-34...doesn't change the fact they were both built for numbers, not quality.

The Soviet quality was T-62 and T-80, the numbers component was the T-72. That changed once they fell. The focus shifted over to the T-72.

And these new technologies also somehow didn't find any export customers?

The simpler explanation is, the new techs were too complicated to be realized within the budgets they had, and they couldn't find foreign patrons would could bankroll them either. For example if India hadn't bought into the T-90 and Su-30 platforms, the Russians would still be using only T-72s and Su-27s today.

Now after the economic conditions imposed as a result of the war, the Russians are not gonna be able to implement these techs anytime soon at all. In fact the latest war is a lesson they won't soon forget: the only way the Russians know to fight a war is with quantity. Even if they had quality, they don't have the mindset, training, structure or ecosystem to take advantage of it.

Which means the tanks the Russians are gonna be building & buying for the next decade are going to be T-72B3s. Not any T-90Ms, and certainly not any T-14s. It's just not the kind of system they can afford and not the kind of warfare they are equipped for.

While in the 90s they used exports to fund their own programs, you can't draw conclusions based on that for today. The Russians are richer than India and have a bigger budget than we do, at least 3 times more, peacetime. I don't see why they cannot afford new stuff. Their SSN/SSBN programs themselves far exceed our funding potential.

As for exports, it's been offered, but the war got in the way of potential exports. While India and China won't be interested, we have to see how smaller countries react once the T-90M is offered for export. You also forget that the Russians make different systems for export as well, so I don't necessarily believe the Irbis-K and Agat-MDT will be exported in the Russian form.

Odd days, they claim its as stealthy as F-22 (a cursory look would tell you that's a joke). Even days, they claim its not meant to be stealthy, but to counter stealth.

What we know for sure is that IAF didn't feel like they were delivering on the VLO front. Looking at renders of AMCA (using the design it passed PDR with), IAF knows stealth when it sees it.

You can't eyeball stealth.

You can't see the imperfections on the F-22 because of its paint, compared to the Su-57's lighter colour. The F-35 is a different design altogether, which uses jackets.

I'd argue the Su-57 is as stealthy as the F-22, but falls short of the F-35. Based on inputs from radar experts, it is said that the Su-57's frontal RCS is similar to the F-22, ie, it falls in the VLO category. The jury is still out on the engine.

Anyway, passive stealth isn't about shaping alone, it's also about the materials the airframe is made of and also what you put inside the airframe. For example, 90% of the F-22's stealth comes from shaping alone. But the Su-57 and F-35 have only 60% of their stealth coming from shaping. Both jets have more RAM and RAS content, unlike the all-metal F-22. AMCA is also expected to get 40% of its stealth through other means.

Any electro-optic MAWS worth its pennies ought to be able to detect the plume of a missile launch without needing the jet to go active. The 101KS-U must be a terrible system if they can't even rely on it to do its basic job.

If you're implying Su-57 will use radar to guide an anti-AAM missile onto the incoming threat...well, the Russian BVR missiles suck even when it comes to dealing with a non-LO fighter target at those ranges. An incoming AAM with a far smaller signature travelling at hypersonic speeds? Good luck shooting that down.

Passive systems aren't good at ranging. Combine the UV MAWS with radar, you can get a far better result. It will be a better anti-missile system than just using IR/UV MAWS or even a combination of the two. In fact, if stealth wasn't a requirement, using radar would be far better for pretty much everything.

The Russians are champions at materials and aerodynamics, it's well within their abilities to make an interceptor missile.

Internet myth.

The fanboys saw that the T-50 had radiation markings on the tail cone, and assumed this was a rear-facing radar. When they found out the markings were there because the tail contained an active jammer that was part of the 'Himalayas' ECM suite, they were disappointed, and the theory that the 'Indian FGFA will have a radar though' was invented. I was very active on forums when this was happening.

The truth is, at that point IAF was faaaar from planning for custom LRUs or sensors. Negotiations were very preliminary at the stage and didn't even get past the work share & financing arrangements before they collapsed. Detailed design & deciding on sensor fitments for FGFA was not even on the horizon yet.

Besides, we've seen the AMCA config. No extra radars anywhere. At one point we even wanted an extra IR sensor on the bottom, don't know if we still do. Work on EOTS-like kit in ongoing, but no extra active sensors. That's not our philosophy.

The T-50 didn't, but the IAF wanted it on their version. The space there is more than enough for a radar. PDP was complete, so the IAF knew what was necessary to get it done.

Even Rafale is getting 360 deg radar. AMCA is still unknown, so I don't know how you have come to such a conclusion.

The power needs of these arrays are too small, they're not that hard. And the computer only has to register targets travelling above a certain speed. It's basically like a radar-based speed gun cops use to catch overspeeders on the highway, except with a phased array antenna for greater accuracy & for tracking multiple objects. It's not that complicated a system.

Sensor is the problem - other less complicated APS like Arena-M are further along the process of production.

It has nothing to do with power and everything to do with cooling. The smaller the space, the harder it is to cool systems. Which is why such tech first reaches ground radars, followed by ships and then other vehicles.

And you forget the radar has to track projectiles at hypersonic speeds. It's not like a police radar gun.

They claim its functioning. Fact is they never even displayed a Flanker-spec AESA at MAKS. They at least displayed the FGA-29/35, even though that was a hopeless pipedream just like the plane it was supposed to go on, MiG-35.

Like I said, if they had a solution, they display it. Doesn't matter if anyone funds it or not. Case in point is FGA-35.

They have only released early prototypes of their AESAs, even the N036. It's like Uttam Mk1. The serial production systems are yet to be released. While the form factor should be the same, the TRMs will obviously be different. The Russians don't seem to be very serious about the Mig-35, so it's not a standard to judge. The fact is the Su-57 with a domestic AESA is operational, that's good enough.
 
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Obj 195 (techs from which now got rolled into T-14) was meant to replace all previous tanks. They believed they'd have the funds to do so, they didn't and still don't.



What is the Flanker good at today? It was as much an improvement over the MiG-29 as the 29 was over the MiG-21.

There was no change in philosophy, just a gradual change in the cost of a platform due to the multitude of equipment needed to do their job. The T-72 for example is a far more sophisticated tank than the T-34...doesn't change the fact they were both built for numbers, not quality.



And these new technologies also somehow didn't find any export customers?

The simpler explanation is, the new techs were too complicated to be realized within the budgets they had, and they couldn't find foreign patrons would could bankroll them either. For example if India hadn't bought into the T-90 and Su-30 platforms, the Russians would still be using only T-72s and Su-27s today.

Now after the economic conditions imposed as a result of the war, the Russians are not gonna be able to implement these techs anytime soon at all. In fact the latest war is a lesson they won't soon forget: the only way the Russians know to fight a war is with quantity. Even if they had quality, they don't have the mindset, training, structure or ecosystem to take advantage of it.

Which means the tanks the Russians are gonna be building & buying for the next decade are going to be T-72B3s. Not any T-90Ms, and certainly not any T-14s. It's just not the kind of system they can afford and not the kind of warfare they are equipped for.



Odd days, they claim its as stealthy as F-22 (a cursory look would tell you that's a joke). Even days, they claim its not meant to be stealthy, but to counter stealth.

What we know for sure is that IAF didn't feel like they were delivering on the VLO front. Looking at renders of AMCA (using the design it passed PDR with), IAF knows stealth when it sees it.



Any electro-optic MAWS worth its pennies ought to be able to detect the plume of a missile launch without needing the jet to go active. The 101KS-U must be a terrible system if they can't even rely on it to do its basic job.

If you're implying Su-57 will use radar to guide an anti-AAM missile onto the incoming threat...well, the Russian BVR missiles suck even when it comes to dealing with a non-LO fighter target at those ranges. An incoming AAM with a far smaller signature travelling at hypersonic speeds? Good luck shooting that down.



Internet myth.

The fanboys saw that the T-50 had radiation markings on the tail cone, and assumed this was a rear-facing radar. When they found out the markings were there because the tail contained an active jammer that was part of the 'Himalayas' ECM suite, they were disappointed, and the theory that the 'Indian FGFA will have a radar though' was invented. I was very active on forums when this was happening.

The truth is, at that point IAF was faaaar from planning for custom LRUs or sensors. Negotiations were very preliminary at the stage and didn't even get past the work share & financing arrangements before they collapsed. Detailed design & deciding on sensor fitments for FGFA was not even on the horizon yet.

Besides, we've seen the AMCA config. No extra radars anywhere. At one point we even wanted an extra IR sensor on the bottom, don't know if we still do. Work on EOTS-like kit in ongoing, but no extra active sensors. That's not our philosophy.



The power needs of these arrays are too small, they're not that hard. And the computer only has to register targets travelling above a certain speed. It's basically like a radar-based speed gun cops use to catch overspeeders on the highway, except with a phased array antenna for greater accuracy & for tracking multiple objects. It's not that complicated a system.

Sensor is the problem - other less complicated APS like Arena-M are further along the process of production.



They claim its functioning. Fact is they never even displayed a Flanker-spec AESA at MAKS. They at least displayed the FGA-29/35, even though that was a hopeless pipedream just like the plane it was supposed to go on, MiG-35.

Like I said, if they had a solution, they display it. Doesn't matter if anyone funds it or not. Case in point is FGA-35.
What Flanker is good at? Lol. It's design is so good that Chinese are inducting it even now in 100s. Over 240 J16s and many J15s to be precise. Its base design is so good that an upgraded Flanker like J16 with AESA radar and QWIP based IRST given a very strong fight to a full-on VLO fighter like J-20(as per Chinese reports).

And SU57 is not fully developed yet. Let it come with Type-30 engines first in SU57M iteration, then we shall see how good it's.
 
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It's a Soviet program, so it wasn't something Russia could afford in the first place. Armata became the more affordable replacement. It's at least cheaper than what we are paying for our T-90S.

That's because we artificially inflate the cost of our T-90s due to inefficient OFB license production & jacked-up ToT costs.

All things being equal (e.g. for Russia's own use), T-14 is way more expensive. There's just so much more stuff on it.

While in the 90s they used exports to fund their own programs, you can't draw conclusions based on that for today. The Russians are richer than India and have a bigger budget than we do, at least 3 times more, peacetime. I don't see why they cannot afford new stuff. Their SSN/SSBN programs themselves far exceed our funding potential.

Because the Russians actually set goals regarding what needs to be produced, which in informed by their strategic-level thinking of what needs to be done to secure Russia's interests in the next 10 years. They may be terribly informed plans, but they are plans nonetheless.


We on the other hand have no clear long-term vision & budgeting, or how to go about achieving it. We come up with a grand scheme, and then change everything 2 years down the line.

You cannot use us as a yardstick to measure this sort of thing really.

As of the Russians, they have severely miscalculated, and a serious adjustment is due:


Guess what the new plan is going to suggest? I'd bet its something along the lines of "stop wasting money on white elephant programs and start building things that we know already work & which we know how to operate". That means, like I said, more T-72B3s and less T-14s.

You can't eyeball stealth.

You can't see the imperfections on the F-22 because of its paint, compared to the Su-57's lighter colour. The F-35 is a different design altogether, which uses jackets.

There are several general rules you can eyeball. Two giant air intake nacelles hanging off the fuselage for example, is not stealthy. What you cannot do is to put a number on it by eyeballing alone.

There are definitely RCS-reduction features on the Felon, like making the corners of the nacelles smooth instead of sharp as on the Flanker. But its far from VLO.

It's not that the Russians don't understand the rules of stealth, they do:

MiG-LMFS-wind-tunnel-model.jpg


E6waJC4XMAIXIp9.jpg


...it's just that they chose to not follow them. Most likely in the pursuit of lower construction costs & production-line complexities. The Su-57 is pretty much a signature-reduced Flanker fuselage with the only big difference being the airfoils & wingform.

The Chinese however, went the US way with regard to the airframe. And so are we.

I'd argue the Su-57 is as stealthy as the F-22, but falls short of the F-35.

In all-aspect stealth, F-22 is the king by a huge margin.

Based on inputs from radar experts, it is said that the Su-57's frontal RCS is similar to the F-22, ie, it falls in the VLO category. The jury is still out on the engine.

Are these experts of the same ilk as Carlo Kopp?

Passive systems aren't good at ranging. Combine the UV MAWS with radar, you can get a far better result. It will be a better anti-missile system than just using IR/UV MAWS or even a combination of the two. In fact, if stealth wasn't a requirement, using radar would be far better for pretty much everything.

The ones who have better radars + better passive sensors + better stealth than the Russians seem to think otherwise.

The Russians are champions at materials and aerodynamics, it's well within their abilities to make an interceptor missile.

If they're smart, they'll replace their existing stock of BVRAAMs with a license-produced Astra with an Indian seeker. :p

The T-50 didn't, but the IAF wanted it on their version. The space there is more than enough for a radar. PDP was complete, so the IAF knew what was necessary to get it done.

Internet myths bro.

In fact a rear facing radar on this plane would be rather pointless. It would be far less powerful than the main N036 so probably won't acquire targets at the same ranges...the side radars in front actually have sensor overlap with the main array, so easy for the computer to hand off a specific target to maintain track even after it moves out of main array's FoV. The one in rear would be on its own.

If its for warning from threats approaching from the rear sector, it would be looking at their noses while presenting the Su-57's rear...a more disadvantaged position wrt who sees & shoots first cannot possibly be imagined. There aren't any rear facing L-bands so they cannot even tell the tail radar where to focus.

Far more beneficial to place a high-power jammer there. That way, you can use the rear-facing 101KS-Us to detect inbound missiles and use the jammer to spoof their seekers.

In fact that is more along the lines of IAF's own philosophy. You'd recall we actually got the French to install a new rear-facing V/HBJ on our Rafales, which wasn't present on any other export or French-operated models - so we know that was an IAF request.

Even Rafale is getting 360 deg radar.

Nah, for Rafale too its just side arrays.

Regardless, you don't even bother going with more active sensors unless:

1) Your passive tech can't do the job like EODAS can

OR

2) Stealth is not that big a concern for you to begin with, so might as well go active

For Rafale, being a 4.5 Gen non-VLO airframe, we know the 2nd option is true. You can imagine which of the two is true for Su-57...possibly both.

AMCA is still unknown, so I don't know how you have come to such a conclusion.

Just going off of what we know so far.


It has nothing to do with power and everything to do with cooling. The smaller the space, the harder it is to cool systems. Which is why such tech first reaches ground radars, followed by ships and then other vehicles.

It's the same. If the application doesn't require much power, it doesn't require much cooling either.

And you forget the radar has to track projectiles at hypersonic speeds. It's not like a police radar gun.

That's why they work in Ka-band (27-40GHz), to track fast moving objects. Btw, the police radar guns work in the same frequency.

As do commercially-available ballistic chronographs like this one:


This particular model is capable of tracking projectiles upto 3900 ft/s or about Mach 3.5 - your typical 120mm FSAPDS travels at Mach 4-5. You just need a higher spec to get that, but there's nothing fundamentally unique about it. Your typical ATGMs & RPGs on the other hand (the real threat APS is supposed to deal with) don't even break the sound barrier.

The only reason you even need a phased array for tank application, like I said, is because you need to get a decent range (to give the APS enough time to throw a countermeasure) + be able to track multiple objects.

Other than that, APS radar is a very low-tech application. I mean it needn't even register the terrain, it just has to watch for objects moving above a certain speed, classify them by size & calculate their vector - basic doppler application. Which means this BEL radar is actually far more sophisticated than what the Russians have on T-14:


^^ This can actually scan & classify objects on the terrain itself.
What Flanker is good at? Lol. It's design is so good that Chinese are inducting it even now in 100s. Over 240 J16s and many J15s to be precise. Its base design is so good that an upgraded Flanker like J16 with AESA radar and QWIP based IRST given a very strong fight to a full-on VLO fighter like J-20(as per Chinese reports).

And SU57 is not fully developed yet. Let it come with Type-30 engines first in SU57M iteration, then we shall see how good it's.

Do the Chinese have a choice? Not like they can buy a Rafale or F-15EX if they wanted to.
 
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That's because we artificially inflate the cost of our T-90s due to inefficient OFB license production & jacked-up ToT costs.

All things being equal (e.g. for Russia's own use), T-14 is way more expensive. There's just so much more stuff on it.

I don't get your logic. The Russian stuff is cheaper for them and they have more money than we do. So why can't they buy their own stuff, even if it's relatively more expensive than our older stuff, but still cheaper for them?

There's nothing inefficient about OFB's T-90 production. We use Indian electronics, which increases the price a bit, but's it's not a lot since the time we signed a contract. It's now $4.1M per tank from the original $3.5M. The difference between Russia and India now is the massive exchange rate difference.

What costs $3M in Russia now costs $1.5M. So the Armata now costs $2M. The Su-35 is $25M, the Su-30SM is $22M, the Su-57 is $37M etc, 'cause the ruble fell by 2x its value. Russia's capital budget was $60B, it fell to $30B in 2014.

Let's compare that to the US capital budget of $145B. For that much money they can buy 1812 F-35s at $80M a pop. Considering a PPP deflator of 2x, Russia's capital budget is $60B. Which means, at $37M, they can buy 1621 Su-57s. Meaning, Russia's peacetime capital budget was as big as US military's budget over all these years. It's the reason they so rapidly militarised in just 7 years. Now their wartime budget could easily be twice as big, ie, far, far bigger than US military spending. The only problem is most of it has gone into places which is not easily visible to civilian eyes.

This ridiculous notion that the Russians do not have money is just that, ridiculous.

Because the Russians actually set goals regarding what needs to be produced, which in informed by their strategic-level thinking of what needs to be done to secure Russia's interests in the next 10 years. They may be terribly informed plans, but they are plans nonetheless.


We on the other hand have no clear long-term vision & budgeting, or how to go about achieving it. We come up with a grand scheme, and then change everything 2 years down the line.

You cannot use us as a yardstick to measure this sort of thing really.

As of the Russians, they have severely miscalculated, and a serious adjustment is due:


Guess what the new plan is going to suggest? I'd bet its something along the lines of "stop wasting money on white elephant programs and start building things that we know already work & which we know how to operate". That means, like I said, more T-72B3s and less T-14s.

It's the opposite. They diverted attention towards older stuff while further developing new stuff. Now they are focusing on new stuff too, like they now have a plan of making 100 Su-57s a year.

There are several general rules you can eyeball. Two giant air intake nacelles hanging off the fuselage for example, is not stealthy. What you cannot do is to put a number on it by eyeballing alone.

There are definitely RCS-reduction features on the Felon, like making the corners of the nacelles smooth instead of sharp as on the Flanker. But its far from VLO.

It's not that the Russians don't understand the rules of stealth, they do:

MiG-LMFS-wind-tunnel-model.jpg


E6waJC4XMAIXIp9.jpg


...it's just that they chose to not follow them. Most likely in the pursuit of lower construction costs & production-line complexities. The Su-57 is pretty much a signature-reduced Flanker fuselage with the only big difference being the airfoils & wingform.

The Chinese however, went the US way with regard to the airframe. And so are we.

Not at all. That's not how it works.

I'd argue this jet is more stealthy than the F-22 as well.
X-32-Monica.jpg


The inlet argument has been debunked millions of times.

In all-aspect stealth, F-22 is the king by a huge margin.

Not as per the USAF.

Internet myths bro.

In fact a rear facing radar on this plane would be rather pointless. It would be far less powerful than the main N036 so probably won't acquire targets at the same ranges...the side radars in front actually have sensor overlap with the main array, so easy for the computer to hand off a specific target to maintain track even after it moves out of main array's FoV. The one in rear would be on its own.

If its for warning from threats approaching from the rear sector, it would be looking at their noses while presenting the Su-57's rear...a more disadvantaged position wrt who sees & shoots first cannot possibly be imagined. There aren't any rear facing L-bands so they cannot even tell the tail radar where to focus.

Far more beneficial to place a high-power jammer there. That way, you can use the rear-facing 101KS-Us to detect inbound missiles and use the jammer to spoof their seekers.

In fact that is more along the lines of IAF's own philosophy. You'd recall we actually got the French to install a new rear-facing V/HBJ on our Rafales, which wasn't present on any other export or French-operated models - so we know that was an IAF request.

In all, the IAF demanded some 50 improvements to the PAK-FA, including 360-degree radar and more powerful engines.

so India had already told Russia during 2016 that it wanted a new engine and the plane must have super-cruise ability, a 360-degree radar ability, added stealth features among 40-odd other modifications, that was the ‘variant’ that had already been agreed upon in general last year, albeit it was largely a new fighter.

The 360 deg capability was an actual requirement. The Russians asked $2B to develop it.

Nah, for Rafale too its just side arrays.

Regardless, you don't even bother going with more active sensors unless:

1) Your passive tech can't do the job like EODAS can

OR

2) Stealth is not that big a concern for you to begin with, so might as well go active

For Rafale, being a 4.5 Gen non-VLO airframe, we know the 2nd option is true. You can imagine which of the two is true for Su-57...possibly both.

If that's what you believe, then fighter jets shouldn't carry AESAs in the first place. The idea is when you turn on your radar, you are gonna get shot down, but you need your radar to do stuff. And while you're doing said stuff, you can also use your radar to help shoot down what's coming at you.

Passive EODAS is a secondary sensor, even on the F-35 the radar is the main sensor. The difference between the F-35 and Su-57 is, the Su-57 also has kinematic means of escape, which the F-35 doesn't. So the radar provides an additional layer of protection to the Su-57 while it escapes.

Eventually, the radar will do everything, like navigation, intelligence, jamming, networking, cyber attack, communications, self-protection etc, not just radar functions. It's the next evolutionary step for radars.

Both the F-35 and Su-57 will see heavy use of its radar for combat. The idea is not to be seen using the radar, and that's via LPI modes, where the emissions are below background noise.

Just going off of what we know so far.


There's quite literally nothing in it.

It's the same. If the application doesn't require much power, it doesn't require much cooling either.

So you're saying your 60-100W desktop processor doesn't require cooling at all? Why don't you remove all fans in your cabinet, including dedicated CPU and graphics card fans, run graphics benchmarks and then let me know how it worked out for you?

All semiconductors always require cooling, it doesn't matter how much power they use since it's all relative.

That's why they work in Ka-band (27-40GHz), to track fast moving objects. Btw, the police radar guns work in the same frequency.

As do commercially-available ballistic chronographs like this one:


This particular model is capable of tracking projectiles upto 3900 ft/s or about Mach 3.5 - your typical 120mm FSAPDS travels at Mach 4-5. You just need a higher spec to get that, but there's nothing fundamentally unique about it. Your typical ATGMs & RPGs on the other hand (the real threat APS is supposed to deal with) don't even break the sound barrier.

The only reason you even need a phased array for tank application, like I said, is because you need to get a decent range (to give the APS enough time to throw a countermeasure) + be able to track multiple objects.

Other than that, APS radar is a very low-tech application. I mean it needn't even register the terrain, it just has to watch for objects moving above a certain speed, classify them by size & calculate their vector - basic doppler application. Which means this BEL radar is actually far more sophisticated than what the Russians have on T-14:


^^ This can actually scan & classify objects on the terrain itself.

You are talking about software, I am not. All I am saying is if you can make an AESA radar that can fit into a small space, then you can make any AESA radar. What's takes time is getting the software right.
 
I don't get your logic. The Russian stuff is cheaper for them and they have more money than we do. So why can't they buy their own stuff, even if it's relatively more expensive than our older stuff, but still cheaper for them?

There's nothing inefficient about OFB's T-90 production. We use Indian electronics, which increases the price a bit, but's it's not a lot since the time we signed a contract. It's now $4.1M per tank from the original $3.5M. The difference between Russia and India now is the massive exchange rate difference.

What costs $3M in Russia now costs $1.5M. So the Armata now costs $2M. The Su-35 is $25M, the Su-30SM is $22M, the Su-57 is $37M etc, 'cause the ruble fell by 2x its value. Russia's capital budget was $60B, it fell to $30B in 2014.

Let's compare that to the US capital budget of $145B. For that much money they can buy 1812 F-35s at $80M a pop. Considering a PPP deflator of 2x, Russia's capital budget is $60B. Which means, at $37M, they can buy 1621 Su-57s. Meaning, Russia's peacetime capital budget was as big as US military's budget over all these years. It's the reason they so rapidly militarised in just 7 years. Now their wartime budget could easily be twice as big, ie, far, far bigger than US military spending. The only problem is most of it has gone into places which is not easily visible to civilian eyes.

This ridiculous notion that the Russians do not have money is just that, ridiculous.

If they have money & have the tech, then what's the holdup?

Su-57 was supposed to have been in production by 2015. The first production batch of 132 T-14s were supposed to have been in service by 2020. They have about a dozen, all prototypes.

Either there are major technological roadblocks that are preventing the programs from becoming viable, or the amount of funds available was deemed to be more beneficial if spent on existing, reliable platforms in larger numbers. That's from where you get stuff like T-72B3.

like they now have a plan of making 100 Su-57s a year.

This is just funny now...the Russians are very much becoming like how HAL used to be in 2010s.

Not at all. That's not how it works.

I'd argue this jet is more stealthy than the F-22 as well.
X-32-Monica.jpg


The inlet argument has been debunked millions of times.

Not the inlet, the nacelle.

These long semi-cylindrical tubes going from the inlet to the engine:

nacelle.jpg


^^ Toward the rear its pretty much a Flanker. You cannot have such massive rounded surface discontinuities and expect it to be VLO, especially from the sides. There was a way to hang the nacelles from the airframe, and yet blend them into the body to present very minimal discontinuities that a wave could creep around and/or bounce off of - the YF23 did it nicely:

message-editor_1526425061812-jajda01313.jpg


Not as per the USAF.

Not unless they're talking about active cancellation.

In all, the IAF demanded some 50 improvements to the PAK-FA, including 360-degree radar and more powerful engines.

so India had already told Russia during 2016 that it wanted a new engine and the plane must have super-cruise ability, a 360-degree radar ability, added stealth features among 40-odd other modifications, that was the ‘variant’ that had already been agreed upon in general last year, albeit it was largely a new fighter.

The 360 deg capability was an actual requirement. The Russians asked $2B to develop it.

That's news to me, thanks for the links. Though it is likely they were talking about extension of the L-band early warning radar by adding it along the trailing edges of the horizontal stabilizers. Because even with a N036B in the tail cone, you wouldn't get 360 degrees, at best about 300. Whereas extension of the L-band would actually give you 360 as they already cover the wings. You can't use them for fire control though.

If that's what you believe, then fighter jets shouldn't carry AESAs in the first place. The idea is when you turn on your radar, you are gonna get shot down, but you need your radar to do stuff. And while you're doing said stuff, you can also use your radar to help shoot down what's coming at you.

Passive EODAS is a secondary sensor, even on the F-35 the radar is the main sensor. The difference between the F-35 and Su-57 is, the Su-57 also has kinematic means of escape, which the F-35 doesn't. So the radar provides an additional layer of protection to the Su-57 while it escapes.

Eventually, the radar will do everything, like navigation, intelligence, jamming, networking, cyber attack, communications, self-protection etc, not just radar functions. It's the next evolutionary step for radars.

Both the F-35 and Su-57 will see heavy use of its radar for combat. The idea is not to be seen using the radar, and that's via LPI modes, where the emissions are below background noise.

F-35 is designed to use its radar in pings & bursts. As sparingly as an SSN would use active sonar. Basically, only when it needs to. A split-second snapshot of a target to obtain precise bearing & range for example, at which point EODAS takes over tracking. The idea is not to constantly blast the environment with radar in the hopes of picking up something, that is an exercise of diminishing returns especially when the other guy has got stealthy aircraft optimized to defeat X-band. We've been over this a few months back.

In the era of missiles like AARGM-ER which can passively seek out emitting radars and have a range of 300-kms, doing that is suicide.

LPI mode is not something you just turn on and your radar magically becomes invisible. Operating in LPI imposes severe restrictions on the amount of power you are allowed to use (proportional to the amount of SNR in the area) and in certain cases it only allows you to use pencil beams to minimize scatter.

Long story short: It's extremely difficult, if not impossible to find & track planes like say, a J-20, by using LPI.

There's quite literally nothing in it.

Well it shows 2 x main IR sensors...and a single active sensor (the main radar).

So you're saying your 60-100W desktop processor doesn't require cooling at all? Why don't you remove all fans in your cabinet, including dedicated CPU and graphics card fans, run graphics benchmarks and then let me know how it worked out for you?

All semiconductors always require cooling, it doesn't matter how much power they use since it's all relative.

No, I'm saying a 65W TDP Core-i3 does not require as much cooling as a 280W TDP Threadripper. You can run an i3 with the air cooler provided in the box just fine...but you need a minimum 360mm liquid cooling setup to get the maximum out of that Threadripper.

More power = more cooling needed.

For example those T-14 arrays probably have like 8-10 TRMs per face, each seperated by an inch of room for airflow. No need to even incorporate liquid cooling like many larger radars do.

You are talking about software, I am not. All I am saying is if you can make an AESA radar that can fit into a small space, then you can make any AESA radar. What's takes time is getting the software right.

Isn't that the point? An APS radar is not an indicator of having advanced APAR software.

As of the TRMs themselves, kids in college projects at MIT can make those. That's not a big deal.
 
If they have money & have the tech, then what's the holdup?

Su-57 was supposed to have been in production by 2015. The first production batch of 132 T-14s were supposed to have been in service by 2020. They have about a dozen, all prototypes.

Either there are major technological roadblocks that are preventing the programs from becoming viable, or the amount of funds available was deemed to be more beneficial if spent on existing, reliable platforms in larger numbers. That's from where you get stuff like T-72B3.

Both programs are in LRIP. When the F-35 started, the USAF ordered only 2. When Arjun started, IA ordered only 14. It's normal.

Armata has reached the point of at least 2 regiments each of tank and IFV, it's a big deal. Su-57 started with 12, and 76 Su-57s have been ordered in total, enough for 3 regiments. That's more than half our MRFA requirement. The Su-57's numbers are restricted by deadline rather than requirements. Starting with 1 regiment a year for Su-57M, they will climb to 4 regiments a year some day. In comparison, our MRFA induction requirement is equivalent to half a regiment per year.

T-72B3 is simply a stop gap upgrade, like the Mig-29SMT and Su-27M3. They are more than likely to build a mix of T-90Ms and Armatas instead.

This is just funny now...the Russians are very much becoming like how HAL used to be in 2010s.

It's normal for them. They have the ability to produce 100+ Flankers a year.

We took 20 years to induct 270 MKIs, they inducted over 400 Flankers in 7 years.

Not the inlet, the nacelle.

These long semi-cylindrical tubes going from the inlet to the engine:

View attachment 25226

^^ Toward the rear its pretty much a Flanker. You cannot have such massive rounded surface discontinuities and expect it to be VLO, especially from the sides. There was a way to hang the nacelles from the airframe, and yet blend them into the body to present very minimal discontinuities that a wave could creep around and/or bounce off of - the YF23 did it nicely:

View attachment 25227

As I said, you can't eyeball stealth. The behaviour of signals on a solid body can only be studied in an anechoic chamber. Even the greatest of experts can't predict this without making a model and physically testing it.

Not unless they're talking about active cancellation.

The F-35’s cross section is much smaller than the F-22’s, but that does not mean, Hostage concedes, that the F-35 is necessarily superior to the F-22 when we go to war.

“The F-35 doesn’t have the altitude, doesn’t have the speed [of the F-22], but it can beat the F-22 in stealth.”


Based on what I could get out of multiple sources, the average RCS of the Su-57 is 0.5m2, F-22's is 0.3m2 and F-35's is 0.15m2. So, while there's not much of a difference between the F-22 and Su-57, the F-35 is much more stealthy. But it's only at best by an order of magnitude, which means a radar will detect a Su-57 at twice the distance as the F-35.

Why people are confused is because people are comparing goals to achieved numbers. The F-22's frontal RCS goal was quite modest, but engineers achieved a much superior value. In the meantime, the USAF pointed out that the F-22 has superior experimental RCS to the F-35's minimum development goal. But, as the F-35 was developed, the experimental RCS values seem to have exceeded the F-22's RCS. As per the Russians, they simply said they kept their RCS goals modest instead of surpassing its time, so they matched the F-22's RCS. And this doesn't count improvements being made because of Russia's evolutionary concept of design. For example, the FGFA could easily have been more stealthy than the F-22, and the same could apply to the Su-57M.

That's news to me, thanks for the links. Though it is likely they were talking about extension of the L-band early warning radar by adding it along the trailing edges of the horizontal stabilizers. Because even with a N036B in the tail cone, you wouldn't get 360 degrees, at best about 300. Whereas extension of the L-band would actually give you 360 as they already cover the wings. You can't use them for fire control though.

No, conformal arrays. The French are also working on it, which will provide 360 deg radar because GaN allows the concept of smart skins, where a radar can be employed on any surface of the aircraft.

This is a concept from the late 2000s.
Rafale conformal antennas.png


The yellows are all radars.

F-35 is designed to use its radar in pings & bursts. As sparingly as an SSN would use active sonar. Basically, only when it needs to. A split-second snapshot of a target to obtain precise bearing & range for example, at which point EODAS takes over tracking. The idea is not to constantly blast the environment with radar in the hopes of picking up something, that is an exercise of diminishing returns especially when the other guy has got stealthy aircraft optimized to defeat X-band. We've been over this a few months back.

In the era of missiles like AARGM-ER which can passively seek out emitting radars and have a range of 300-kms, doing that is suicide.

LPI mode is not something you just turn on and your radar magically becomes invisible. Operating in LPI imposes severe restrictions on the amount of power you are allowed to use (proportional to the amount of SNR in the area) and in certain cases it only allows you to use pencil beams to minimize scatter.

Long story short: It's extremely difficult, if not impossible to find & track planes like say, a J-20, by using LPI.

Pings and bursts is what is called LPI. The radar can do the same when tracking a missile too.

LPI means you basically operate below background noise and ocassionally shoot out some beams above background noise, ie, more amplitude, to generate more data. The more such bursts you have, the more recent information you have.

Well it shows 2 x main IR sensors...and a single active sensor (the main radar).

It's only showing off the basics of what's on current jets. It's not a professional work.

No, I'm saying a 65W TDP Core-i3 does not require as much cooling as a 280W TDP Threadripper. You can run an i3 with the air cooler provided in the box just fine...but you need a minimum 360mm liquid cooling setup to get the maximum out of that Threadripper.

More power = more cooling needed.

For example those T-14 arrays probably have like 8-10 TRMs per face, each seperated by an inch of room for airflow. No need to even incorporate liquid cooling like many larger radars do.

That's not how radars work. The space between TRMs have to be one-half of the wavelength being used at the minimum. The wavelength of a 40GHz signal is 7.5mm. So every 3.75mm at the minimum must have a TRM. So we are talking about dozens on each array, I don't know the size of the array. The same rule on any AESA radar.

Isn't that the point? An APS radar is not an indicator of having advanced APAR software.

As of the TRMs themselves, kids in college projects at MIT can make those. That's not a big deal.

We are not talking about software, we are talking about hardware. TRMs themselves are not the problem. In such a small space, especially inside a tank, the heat emitted by TRMs have to be cooled. A tank environment can get very hot. On the Armata, only the living capsule has environment control. And cooling systems are heavy, especially for TRMs. In an aircraft, the nose has environment control, but in a tank, the cooling system must be really, really good to ensure it works properly. So it's a very big deal for a tank to carry an AESA radar. It would mean the company involved really knows how to make one.

The Armata AESA does not have APS functions alone, it also allows networking with others and also tracks enemy targets, like tanks, soldiers, UAVs and helicopters. It's a proper radar.
 
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Both programs are in LRIP. When the F-35 started, the USAF ordered only 2. When Arjun started, IA ordered only 14. It's normal.

Armata has reached the point of at least 2 regiments each of tank and IFV, it's a big deal. Su-57 started with 12, and 76 Su-57s have been ordered in total, enough for 3 regiments. That's more than half our MRFA requirement. The Su-57's numbers are restricted by deadline rather than requirements. Starting with 1 regiment a year for Su-57M, they will climb to 4 regiments a year some day. In comparison, our MRFA induction requirement is equivalent to half a regiment per year.

T-72B3 is simply a stop gap upgrade, like the Mig-29SMT and Su-27M3. They are more than likely to build a mix of T-90Ms and Armatas instead.

The size of the order is secondary. Let's see them deliver the batch first.

You cannot delay the production of an aircraft for 7+ years and claim there was no tech problem and no money problem. When our programs like Mk-2 Tejas is delayed by 2 years, we know it was because we took too long to release the full quantum of funds needed.

What was the Russians' issue?

It's normal for them. They have the ability to produce 100+ Flankers a year.

We took 20 years to induct 270 MKIs, they inducted over 400 Flankers in 7 years.

Su-57 series production supposedly started in 2019. Till now they delivered 6 LRIP aircraft out of a batch order of 76 and the final configuration of the onboard suite is still undergoing flight tests.

In short, this doesn't look like series production at all. At a rate of about 1.5 ac/year that's not even LRI production. They're just building more prototypes.

Yeah they have the capacity to build more jets...just not this jet cuz there is still so much stuff to figure out with it.

As I said, you can't eyeball stealth. The behaviour of signals on a solid body can only be studied in an anechoic chamber. Even the greatest of experts can't predict this without making a model and physically testing it.

Well we have ALL other stealth aircraft following one rule and the Russians doing something else. So either the Russians know something nobody else does (but somehow MiG doesn't) or stealth isn't a priority for their design.

In fact we can infer a lot based on the sensor setup they have chosen. The concept of using L-band to gain early warning about VLO threats was a program developed for Su-35, cuz the Flanker knows it has the disadvantage wrt RCS so the enemy will see it first anyway, no harm in constantly blasting the radar & with the longer wavelength, it at least has a chance to see the VLO threat much sooner than it otherwise would have.

On a supposedly VLO platform though, this setup makes zero sense. Unless the plane wasn't meant to be VLO.

The F-35’s cross section is much smaller than the F-22’s, but that does not mean, Hostage concedes, that the F-35 is necessarily superior to the F-22 when we go to war.

“The F-35 doesn’t have the altitude, doesn’t have the speed [of the F-22], but it can beat the F-22 in stealth.”


Based on what I could get out of multiple sources, the average RCS of the Su-57 is 0.5m2, F-22's is 0.3m2 and F-35's is 0.15m2. So, while there's not much of a difference between the F-22 and Su-57, the F-35 is much more stealthy. But it's only at best by an order of magnitude, which means a radar will detect a Su-57 at twice the distance as the F-35.

Why people are confused is because people are comparing goals to achieved numbers. The F-22's frontal RCS goal was quite modest, but engineers achieved a much superior value. In the meantime, the USAF pointed out that the F-22 has superior experimental RCS to the F-35's minimum development goal. But, as the F-35 was developed, the experimental RCS values seem to have exceeded the F-22's RCS. As per the Russians, they simply said they kept their RCS goals modest instead of surpassing its time, so they matched the F-22's RCS. And this doesn't count improvements being made because of Russia's evolutionary concept of design. For example, the FGFA could easily have been more stealthy than the F-22, and the same could apply to the Su-57M.

They don't say anything about how that is achieved though. It's very likely active cancellation is involved because the F-35 actually has the computational power to pull it off.

No, conformal arrays. The French are also working on it, which will provide 360 deg radar because GaN allows the concept of smart skins, where a radar can be employed on any surface of the aircraft.

This is a concept from the late 2000s.
View attachment 25228

The yellows are all radars.

This is the same pic that told us they were even going for extra radars. All the same, I don't see any yellows on the trailing edges. Only side (and top) facing ones. It's very likely the ones on the wings are actually L-bands like on Felon, and serve similar purposes.

Pings and bursts is what is called LPI. The radar can do the same when tracking a missile too.

LPI means you basically operate below background noise and ocassionally shoot out some beams above background noise, ie, more amplitude, to generate more data. The more such bursts you have, the more recent information you have.

In order to successfully operate via pings & bursts however - you need pre-existing knowledge about the general direction & location of a target. You gain that knowledge either through offboard sensors (AEW, SATCOM, etc.) or via EODAS or other passive means (interferometry). After that you can shoot the LPI pencil beam to gain an ID & exact range to target at that point. You now have a firing solution. You can let go of the missile.

When the missile is already underway, you can pulse a 2nd beam that can update the AAM via datalink. Beyond this point you can become radar silent again - the missile's own seeker takes over and if a two-way link is present, tells you what happened. But all this while EODAS is constantly monitoring the target & can see an explosion even if no two-way link is there.

The aircraft that does the pinging & the one that launches the missile can be different.

This isn't how the Russians plan to operate though...at the very least, their L-band is constantly operating at maximum power scanning a wide FoV otherwise it won't get the early warning it needs to survive. The Russians cannot afford LPI. At the very least, one of the jets in a strike package is constantly visible, and once you know their direction, not hard to train other sensors to focus on that sector.

Stealth doesn't work for Su-57s. The Russians know it.

That's not how radars work. The space between TRMs have to be one-half of the wavelength being used at the minimum. The wavelength of a 40GHz signal is 7.5mm. So every 3.75mm at the minimum must have a TRM. So we are talking about dozens on each array, I don't know the size of the array. The same rule on any AESA radar.

Sorry I meant 8-10 TRMs across. I was going by the size of the array compared to the smoke canister launchers underneath. A typical tank smoke discharger is 66mm wide and the array is roughly that size (actual array is smaller than the package).

In other words its probably similar in size to the BVR AESA seeker Phazotron prototyped all those years ago, which is 8 TRM across & 8 high (64 total).

We are not talking about software, we are talking about hardware. TRMs themselves are not the problem. In such a small space, especially inside a tank, the heat emitted by TRMs have to be cooled. A tank environment can get very hot. On the Armata, only the living capsule has environment control. And cooling systems are heavy, especially for TRMs. In an aircraft, the nose has environment control, but in a tank, the cooling system must be really, really good to ensure it works properly. So it's a very big deal for a tank to carry an AESA radar. It would mean the company involved really knows how to make one.

How much heat is generating by the array depends on how much power its consuming. You don't consume much power in this application.

The Armata AESA does not have APS functions alone, it also allows networking with others and also tracks enemy targets, like tanks, soldiers, UAVs and helicopters. It's a proper radar.

I've read the claims - they say it can track 40 objects at 100 kms. I've never heard anything more absurd.


I mean a BVR AESA seeker cannot even acquire the target from that far off and thats in a non-cluttered environment like the sky where the only thing it has to focus on is the target. And those seekers operate in the same frequency as this radar (Ka-band).

Not to mention a radar powerful enough to track at 100 kms (and at this high a frequency) would have to be powerful enough to microwave-burn all the friendly infantry moving with the tank. These are ridiculous claims.

At best, its similar in function to the ELM-2133 used on Trophy APS. They're now using this on the Abrams upgrade and they don't make any such outrageous claims. If anything the Israelis are decades ahead of the Russians at AESAs.

All that the 2133 does is to track & classify objects above a certain velocity:

 
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Do the Chinese have a choice? Not like they can buy a Rafale or F-15EX if they wanted to.
No they may not have option to buy Rafale or F15 EX, but if Flanker base design is crap like you're insinuating then they can simply stop procuring more of them. Just buy more J-20s in the high end and a very nice Delta-Canard like J10 in the low mix.

But not only they are procuring more advance Flankers but their entire air dominance and deep penetration ideology is based upon team work of J20 and J16 working together.


J16 can fire PL21 and multitude of air to ground weapons which no other Chinese plane can do.

Our Flankers destroyed Eurofighters in exercise Indradhanush 2015 both in WVR and BVR. If Flanker design is so outdated then Typhoons would have swallowed our Flankers most certainly in BVR.


PS: I agree current SU57 is not as stealthy as Raptor or F-35 from back and side. But lets wait for Type-30 engines equipped SU57M. Americans need NGAD to deal with advance SU57 and J-20 variants because they know that both Raptors and Lightning 2s are going to fall short.
 
After reading many of the posts,

India seems to be in a position between Ukraine and Russia..

Against Chinese, Indian position will be like Ukraine.. Only the Himalayan ranges acting as the fence.. But the technological gap, production capacity and quantity of weapons are far wider than Russia vs Ukraine.

Similarly I doubt we could get the same international help, as Ukraine want to join NATO, and all of West are into it.

There wont be many who would help Chinese, but China won't be needing thier help, country is massive, production capacity is massive, almost a dictatorship , will enforce anything out of their citizens.

Russian defence industry are yet to be bombed, still their production is insufficient,
How will india produce, it's production itself is small and enemies have means to hit the industry... Means we wouldn't hold for as long as Russia did.

Against Pakistan, we could take them out, before they can damage significantly on us.

But our stocks? Will we replenish faster than Russia?

Seems like we need to grow a lot..

Except for networking and ' 36 ' Rafales, where are we ahead of Russians?
To be Ukrainian military is in absolute shambles. The equivalence is nowhere true. China's Ukraine will be Taiwan. We are to them what Pakistan is to us.
 
What is the Flanker good at today? It was as much an improvement over the MiG-29 as the 29 was over the MiG-21.
Flankers have superior build quality than their mig counterparts. Have enormous range something both the mig 29 and mig 21 lack, can carry hypersonic and supersonic stand off missiles. Go Mach 2+ flight and do air superiority missions while also doing dog fighting. It's big size makes it weak as an offensive fighter but it's great at what it does. The f-15 only has superior avionics and munitions. The j-16 in my opinion is superior to most f-15's by quite a margin so is the su-35.
 
No they may not have option to buy Rafale or F15 EX, but if Flanker base design is crap like you're insinuating then they can simply stop procuring more of them. Just buy more J-20s in the high end and a very nice Delta-Canard like J10 in the low mix.

But not only they are procuring more advance Flankers but their entire air dominance and deep penetration ideology is based upon team work of J20 and J16 working together.

Have you considered that maybe its because J-20 is not as good as they claim it is or PLAAF is not comfortable in placing all its eggs in one basket?

For example, Russian nuclear submarines are typically nowhere as quiet as Western ones, but they are still far quieter than Chinese ones.

Our Flankers destroyed Eurofighters in exercise Indradhanush 2015 both in WVR and BVR. If Flanker design is so outdated then Typhoons would have swallowed our Flankers most certainly in BVR.

And Rafale destroyed F-22 in exercises. Doesn't mean its the better fighter.

These exercises are extremely subjective affairs and one must be mindful of the conditions set prior to engagement, and what handicaps each side was operating with. For example in Cope India, IAF side which was Blue team was given AWACS support whereas USAF Red team was not provided AWACS and weren't allowed to use data-link. As a result, Flankers prevailed over F-15s.

Similarly in the Rafale vs Raptor exercise. They were forced to engage at knife fight ranges, giving Rafale the upper hand.

But these are not realistic combat scenarios. The purpose of these is to impart Dissimilar air combat experience to pilots. Key word being dissimilar.
 
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