Kolkata-class and Visakhapatnam-class Destroyers: News & Discussions
- Thread starter Ashwin
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Why is it taking MDL so long to construct these 4 Vizag class destroyers which are basically moderately upgraded Kolkata class destroyers??
Steel is Indian, but engines are Ukranian. The engines are delayed. The same problem that P-15A also faced.
Not sure where to begin wrt to the delays - things that hit me
1) Class Lead Y704 with will be fitted with SRGM and the next Y705 will be MRGUN - (which system is confirmed?)
2) Point No, 9 - SHIP WILL BE DELIVERED WITHOUT IADS!!!
The initial choice was to continue with the 76 mm SRGM as on the Kolkata class. Later the Navy changed the requirement to the BAE 127 mm gun, this caused a lot of delays.
As was the case with the Kolkata class. Those ships have the ATAS and ATDS now though, combined with the RBU6000 and the towed array sonar it is a very potent combination. The experience from the Kamorta class will prove very beneficial.
Navy didn't change that requirement, it was forced to do so because MoD had blacklisted OTO-Melara (OEM of SRGM), among other Finmeccanica subsidiaries thanks to AgustaWestland affair.
That blacklisting is also the reason why Scorpenes had to go without torpedoes (at the time Black Shark from WASS was the only SUBTICS-compliant torpedo, and WASS was also a Finmeccanica subsidiary).
The decision to blacklist companies has to be very carefully thought out, the old AK Antony MoD was notorious for blacklisting cos. at the drop of hat. Modi government at least as far as the Finmeccanica affair went, hadn't learnt to correct that. This particular blacklisting had far-reaching detrimental effects on Navy procurement.
Interesting.....if Melara is still blacklisted how did we get the 76 mm on the last Kamorta class ship ? Also wasn't BHEL supposed to licence manufacture the Otobreda 127mm gun but the contract was later handed to the BAE after the blacklisting ? Strangely BHEL still continues building infra for that project as if they expect it to work out eventually. I wonder if the BAE gun was a stop gap measure, and in the long run we will go for the Otobreda. I wanted the Navy to fund a domestic gun we do have a quite a bit of expertise on the artillery front, no indication of that happening.
Saurav Jha tweeted that the amount of imported content (by price) on P15B is around 28%. I'll link the tweet if I find it.
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As per terms of most blacklists, all the deals signed prior to blacklist have to be honoured. So if they signed on to supply 4 guns for Kamortas, they have to supply 4 guns regardless of blacklist.
However if for example we decide to build a follow-on to Kamorta, we cannot expand the production order by another X number of guns as no further business can be conducted with blacklisted entity.
Don't know the specifics but like I said, if this is regarding deals signed previously being honoured, work will be carried out. But nobody can sign deals or renewals of licenses anew.
P17A and P15B were designed with 127 mm gun. Non availability of Italians let to American. As stopgap they will have to use 76mm (probably refurbished)
Yet to place order for DRDO ALTAS I guess.
Kolkatas were delivered without LRSAM and towed array!. Yet not clear if they have added sonar suit later.
@Ashwin @randomradio @Parthu et al...Look at this :
INS Vishakapatnam in MDL, Mumbai from 2017 or 2018. I am not sure. You can see the 76 mm OTO Melara on the fore deck. So the recent report was right Visakhapatnam will have the 76 mm instead of the 127 mm.
The helo hangar :
The L-band BEL RAWL-02 instead of the recently ordered LANZA radar :
Overall the INS Visakhapatnam will be just a stretched version of the Kolkata class with very minor signature management improvements. Unless an improvement in VLS numbers is seen it will be increasingly difficult to justify the INS Visakhapatnam, even the other of Vizag class ships. What great improvements do they bring that we needed a new class of ships ? All improvements of the Vizag class could've been had with a block 2 of the Kolkata class. So instead of a time and money consuming project with no out come to show for by the end of near 7 years we could've invested the same amount on continuing with the Kolkata class production. At least we would've had another 2-3 ships by now.
INS Vishakapatnam in MDL, Mumbai from 2017 or 2018. I am not sure. You can see the 76 mm OTO Melara on the fore deck. So the recent report was right Visakhapatnam will have the 76 mm instead of the 127 mm.
The helo hangar :
The L-band BEL RAWL-02 instead of the recently ordered LANZA radar :
Overall the INS Visakhapatnam will be just a stretched version of the Kolkata class with very minor signature management improvements. Unless an improvement in VLS numbers is seen it will be increasingly difficult to justify the INS Visakhapatnam, even the other of Vizag class ships. What great improvements do they bring that we needed a new class of ships ? All improvements of the Vizag class could've been had with a block 2 of the Kolkata class. So instead of a time and money consuming project with no out come to show for by the end of near 7 years we could've invested the same amount on continuing with the Kolkata class production. At least we would've had another 2-3 ships by now.
Build 2 more P15B and be done. Focus on production of P17A and development of P18.
Common sense is not that common in India. We will build 3 P-15B and the spend another 6-8 years to make another 3 P-15C. Then we will make the P-18, after a decade of the project commencement we will have our first boat. Of course we will keep the numbers at a customary 3 only.
I am sorry. Its fu*king frustrating sometimes.
This was never in doubt. P-15B predated the AW ban. It's the P-17As that needed the gun change.
P-15, P-15A and P-15B are pretty much the same ships with some modifications.
In other words, Vizag is a Block 3 of the Delhi class, Kolkata is the Block 2.
What we did is better. We can't afford to buy ships in bulk yet, so we buy them in tranches and introduce modifications and new technologies with each tranche. I have always recommend the same with fighter jets as well, also battle tanks and IFVs, anything strategic that's required in large numbers.
Which would be fine if the buying in trenches got us at least a single ship in 7 years.
What new tech is Vizag getting that the Kolkata doesn't have ?
MDL is far too slow to be given large orders, the same with any of our other shipyards, but none except MDL can build a destroyer even today. All P-15s have been built sequentially, without wasting much time. Just look up the commissioning dates of the previous class and the laying down of the next class. MDL also builds frigates, using up a lot of capacity.
So, since 2003, with P-15A, P-15B, P-17 and P-17A, MDL has built/building a combined 14 ships in 22 years, which is pretty decent. The Americans plan to deliver 15 AB class ships from 2003 from each of their 2 shipyards within the same time period.
It's difficult to say. But a lot of it is electronics. Primarily next generation versions of what's on the previous designs.