Kolkata-class and Visakhapatnam-class Destroyers: News & Discussions

[Gautam]

But need to get rid of these shitty RBU and the old thales radar

Totally agree on the radar. But you know the RBU 6000 rocket launcher isn't going anywhere anytime soon. In fact the Navy asked for the range of the rockets to be increase from 5.3 KMs max to 8.5 KMs max with out changing the dimensions on the round. ARDE delivered on that by changing fuel and using lighter materials, this is likely to become the standard now.

Personally, I have nothing against the RBU 6000 rocket launchers. They are a cheap, effective, fast acting, jam proof hard kill measure against submarines making attacking runs, a kind of a backup weapon should all else fail. My only complaint is that it doesn't have a stealth mount launcher, we are still using the old Soviet bare bones launcher. From the looks of it the Navy doesn't seem to give a flying f**k about the lack of a stealth mount and uses/will use it in all current and future ships. I don't understand why.

 

[Bon Plan]

Possible. It does seem to be an overcoat or some kind not paint. Also its only to be seen on the front section, no other side has it. So maybe RAM coating for experimental usage, trying to reduce fore section signature.
It wasn't there at first when INS Kolkata rolled out of yard to the sea. First time it came to view would be during the Konkan excercises of October 2018 with the Royal Navy HMS Dragon. I believe it was applied around mid 2018.

View attachment 6349

Or black paint so as to reduce IR signature?

 

[Gautam]

Or black paint so as to reduce IR signature?

Considering that most of IR signature of any ship comes from the exhaust wouldn't it make sense to have IR suppression paint on the exhaust superstructure of the ship rather than the radar housing tower. We already do that with the new corvettes :
INS Kamorta with the IR suppression black painted exhaust

INS Kiltan during commisioning.

Other than the paint we also use this for IR suppression : IR Suppression System for Naval Platforms- IR Suppression System
Mist based Infra Red Suppression Technology (MIST) system on all new vessels. Kolkata class included.
Although this creates a new problem of soot formation. If you have seen the rear looking MF-STAR radar you will see its very dirty. This is one of the primary reasons. Of course the engine itself is fairly smoky.

Electronics and radars do get hot with continued use, but I don't see how they would need a IR suppression paint. Most of them do have in-built cooling to take care of over-heating. Even if they were for cooling the placement of the paint or coating does seem rather inappropriate, its far away from the main heated thing, the forward looking radar.

Like I said the INS Kolkata didn't have them when it came about. So surely the black paint/coating is not integral to the ship's functioning and it seems only INS Kolkata has it but not INS Kochi.

Curiously INS Chennai had it from the commissioning.

Maybe operating the INS Kolkata has given the Navy some experience which they wanted to inculcate on the other ships of the class. INS Kochi was already in service so INS Chennai received the upgrades as she is the last of her class.

Or maybe the Navy is doing some experiments with new paints/coatings for future destroyers.

 

[Austerlitz]

Totally agree on the radar. But you know the RBU 6000 rocket launcher isn't going anywhere anytime soon. In fact the Navy asked for the range of the rockets to be increase from 5.3 KMs max to 8.5 KMs max with out changing the dimensions on the round. ARDE delivered on that by changing fuel and using lighter materials, this is likely to become the standard now.
View attachment 6350

Personally, I have nothing against the RBU 6000 rocket launchers. They are a cheap, effective, fast acting, jam proof hard kill measure against submarines making attacking runs, a kind of a backup weapon should all else fail. My only complaint is that it doesn't have a stealth mount launcher, we are still using the old Soviet bare bones launcher. From the looks of it the Navy doesn't seem to give a flying f**k about the lack of a stealth mount and uses/will use it in all current and future ships. I don't understand why.

RBU has several problems -

1.Compromises stealth
2.Takes up valuable deck space that can accomodate 32 vls.
3.Very poor range and penetration depth.Its useless against the subs themselves,for that has to rely on HWT tubes.

What is needed is to use VLS cells with rocket assisted torpedo missile like ASROC for sub killing capability.This would eliminate the space taken up and range problem.
For torpedo hard kill capability we should move on to new systems like Russian paket-ng or german seaspider like system.
I sincerely hope i dont have to see RBU mount on the next generation destroyer with UVLS cells.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Destroyer INS Ranjit to be decommissioned on 6th May.

 

[Gautam]

 

[Gautam]

RBU has several problems -

1.Compromises stealth
2.Takes up valuable deck space that can accomodate 32 vls.
3.Very poor range and penetration depth.Its useless against the subs themselves,for that has to rely on HWT tubes.

Agree with all of this but as we have seen IN will continue using it.

What is needed is to use VLS cells with rocket assisted torpedo missile like ASROC for sub killing capability.This would eliminate the space taken up and range problem.

That reminds me, didn't we have Supersonic Missile Assisted Release of Torpedo (SMART) Technology Demostration(TD) project ongoing as was revealed by Smt. Nirmala Sitharaman in the Parliament in early 2018. What happened to it ? Reportedly it was modelled on the ASROC

I sincerely hope i dont have to see RBU mount on the next generation destroyer with UVLS cells.

In all due probability we will see the RBU, although I'd love to be wrong. What about UVLS though ? What missiles is it supposed to carry ? Brahmos, Nirbhay, et al. ?

 

[Austerlitz]

Agree with all of this but as we have seen IN will continue using it.

That reminds me, didn't we have Supersonic Missile Assisted Release of Torpedo (SMART) Technology Demostration(TD) project ongoing as was revealed by Smt. Nirmala Sitharaman in the Parliament in early 2018. What happened to it ? Reportedly it was modelled on the ASROC

In all due probability we will see the RBU, although I'd love to be wrong. What about UVLS though ? What missiles is it supposed to carry ? Brahmos, Nirbhay, et al. ?

No word on smart for over a year.
UVLS is supposed to universally carry all missiles.Eliminate RBU and put ASROC like weapons in the UVLS.With UVLS you can have just 64-96 VLS cells and fill them customized as mission needs without fixed armament with mix of nirbhay,brahmos-2,barak-er,maybe even quad pack a navalized version of DRDO quick reaction PDM and asroc type ASW missile.
For anti torpedo duty you install a paket-ng or german sea spider type system.
Heavy weight toredo tubes remain as they are.
Along with 1-2 helicopters(romeo) and ACTAS towed array sonar(active) plus HUMSA-NG2 active/passive sonar you got excellent ASW capability.

 

[Gautam]

No word on smart for over a year.
UVLS is supposed to universally carry all missiles.Eliminate RBU and put ASROC like weapons in the UVLS.With UVLS you can have just 64-96 VLS cells and fill them customized as mission needs without fixed armament with mix of nirbhay,brahmos-2,barak-er,maybe even quad pack a navalized version of DRDO quick reaction PDM and asroc type ASW missile.
For anti torpedo duty you install a paket-ng or german sea spider type system.
Heavy weight toredo tubes remain as they are.
Along with 1-2 helicopters(romeo) and ACTAS towed array sonar(active) plus HUMSA-NG2 active/passive sonar you got excellent ASW capability.

I wonder how such a system will work for us. Unlike, say the Americans, our weapon vendors are much more diverse. So every manufacturer makes things in their own chosen dimension. Brahmos/Nirbhay/SMART/Barak-8 ER/Shaurya(would somebody please put that thing on a surface ship already, it'd be a great addition) they all have different dimensions. The difference maybe marginal, but it cannot be ignored. To make a UVLS that carries/fires them all would need you to make a launch tube to fit the missile with the largest dimension among them(Brahmos) and make launch tube adapters for the missiles with smaller dimensions. The whole thing seems like a mess, maybe when we start adopting more indigenous weapons things would get better.

What was the name of the next gen destroyers ? Project-18(P-18) ? Are we still designing them ? Are there any details about them known ?

 

[Austerlitz]

I wonder how such a system will work for us. Unlike, say the Americans, our weapon vendors are much more diverse. So every manufacturer makes things in their own chosen dimension. Brahmos/Nirbhay/SMART/Barak-8 ER/Shaurya(would somebody please put that thing on a surface ship already, it'd be a great addition) they all have different dimensions. The difference maybe marginal, but it cannot be ignored. To make a UVLS that carries/fires them all would need you to make a launch tube to fit the missile with the largest dimension among them(Brahmos) and make launch tube adapters for the missiles with smaller dimensions. The whole thing seems like a mess, maybe when we start adopting more indigenous weapons things would get better.

What was the name of the next gen destroyers ? Project-18(P-18) ? Are we still designing them ? Are there any details about them known ?

Generally the principle is it should be able to carry largest missile and be able to quad pack smallest point defence SAM.
P-18 is the name .It will be a cruiser class with 11,000-13,000 tonnes.All electric propulsion.Should be able to carry helicopters as well as drones.
Brahmos 2/Zircon and Barak-8 ER are confirmed weapons along with longer ranged nirbhay.Navy wants laser for CIWS and railguns,but these 2 are subject to whether we can mature such technology in time.

 

[Gautam]

be able to quad pack smallest point defence SAM

That's new information to me. I didn't know this before. Thank you.

It will be a cruiser class with 11,000-13,000 tonnes.All electric propulsion

Holy.............we have made some advances in electric propulsion, enough to propel frigates/corvettes. But this is a ship pf much larger proportions. How will we propel a vessel nearly the size of the VC 11184 with electric propulsion ? Wait a minute what type of propulsion does the VC 11184 have again ?

Should be able to carry helicopters as well as drones.

VT-VL drones ? Rotor-craft, I guess. Like that helicopter drone that HAL displayed at the Aero India 2019.

Brahmos 2/Zircon and Barak-8 ER are confirmed weapons along with longer ranged nirbhay.

Alright, Barak-8 ER is very much possible. We probably will go for it with other ships, if not the P-18.
Longer ranged Nirbhay is also doable once we fly that thing with the Manik engine. What range is considered "long" by the navy ? 2000 Kms ? Kalibr missile territory ?
Brahmos 2/Zircon : not sure about this. Bramhos 2 is still far away as far as I can tell. We can have the longer ranged Brahmos(800 Km),
no problems. Brahmos 2 seems a bit iffy.

Navy wants laser for CIWS and railguns

Never been a big fan of experimental technology being put on capital ships.
Naval guns are rather demanding, we have never produced a full sized Naval main gun(no the "Close Range Naval-91" doesn't count) and we will put a railgun on a capital ship.
As for CIWS. We are still using the AK-630, it does the job and frankly the Navy doesn't care to get a modern CIWS like a Kashtan or a Phalanx. If the IN doesn't bother about getting a new CIWS or making one itself, why will it suddenly adopt a laser CIWS whose reliability will be questionable at best ?

 

[Austerlitz]

That's new information to me. I didn't know this before. Thank you.

Holy.............we have made some advances in electric propulsion, enough to propel frigates/corvettes. But this is a ship pf much larger proportions. How will we propel a vessel nearly the size of the VC 11184 with electric propulsion ? Wait a minute what type of propulsion does the VC 11184 have again ?

VT-VL drones ? Rotor-craft, I guess. Like that helicopter drone that HAL displayed at the Aero India 2019.

Alright, Barak-8 ER is very much possible. We probably will go for it with other ships, if not the P-18.
Longer ranged Nirbhay is also doable once we fly that thing with the Manik engine. What range is considered "long" by the navy ? 2000 Kms ? Kalibr missile territory ?
Brahmos 2/Zircon : not sure about this. Bramhos 2 is still far away as far as I can tell. We can have the longer ranged Brahmos(800 Km),
no problems. Brahmos 2 seems a bit iffy.

Never been a big fan of experimental technology being put on capital ships.
Naval guns are rather demanding, we have never produced a full sized Naval main gun(no the "Close Range Naval-91" doesn't count) and we will put a railgun on a capital ship.
As for CIWS. We are still using the AK-630, it does the job and frankly the Navy doesn't care to get a modern CIWS like a Kashtan or a Phalanx. If the IN doesn't bother about getting a new CIWS or making one itself, why will it suddenly adopt a laser CIWS whose reliability will be questionable at best ?

Don't know if the propulsion will be fully indegenous or not.Navy plans integrate electric propulsion for greater speed,lesser noise and space savings.Greater power availability will also allow operating energy hungry mounts like railguns and lasers.We use COGAG in kolkata class atm.

VTVL.A cruiser size ship will have enough space.
Long range is 1500 -2000 kms.
Brahmos 2 is basically indian variant of zircon hypersonic missile.Zircon has already been test fired and will enter service with russia soon.

CIWS will probably be a combo of conventional and laser.Advantage of laser is it ignores incoming missile speed as it fires at speed of light.
With the coming advent of hypersonic missiles laser is very important.Most current SAM systems even latest ones like seaceptor cant shoot down hypersonic missiles flying at mach 6 and above.

 

[Gautam]

Don't know if the propulsion will be fully indegenous or not.Navy plans integrate electric propulsion for greater speed,lesser noise and space savings.Greater power availability will also allow operating energy hungry mounts like railguns and lasers.We use COGAG in kolkata class atm.

If import is an option, then the Queen Elizabeth class use IEP, probably made by Rolls-Royce. We are doing pretty bad on the propulsion front. We don't make Gas turbines, large diesel engines(although we do make some diesels though) and now we are going to import a IEP system.

Zircon has already been test fired and will enter service with russia soon.

So what's this talk from Brahmos Aerospace Ltd. about Brahmos 2 being ready only after a decade ? Also specs of Zircon ?

 

[Paro]

So what's this talk from Brahmos Aerospace Ltd. about Brahmos 2 being ready only after a decade ? Also specs of Zircon ?

Putin Reveals Zircon Mach 9 Missile Specification
basically zircon is an evolution from p800 same as brahmos.

 

[Gautam]

Putin Reveals Zircon Mach 9 Missile Specification
basically zircon is an evolution from p800 same as brahmos.

I thought brahmos' ramjet engine won't allow speeds beyond Mach 5. The models displayed indicates an air-breathing engine, and reportedly it can do a Mach 9 cruise. So it must be a scramjet.
How would you canisterize this thing, I wonder. With the Brahmos you'd need a nose-cap and it works because of the circular intake. Whereas this thing has a very unconventional intake.

 

[Paro]

How would you canisterize this thing, I wonder. With the Brahmos you'd need a nose-cap and it works because of the circular intake. Whereas this thing has a very unconventional intake.

yea even I have my doubts. so far I'm aware Russia has conducted land-based tests from a silo. Because they say it can attack the ships 500km of the coast. I don't know anything about the canisterized version. I am no techie in this field.

 

[Parthu]

No word on smart for over a year.
UVLS is supposed to universally carry all missiles.Eliminate RBU and put ASROC like weapons in the UVLS.With UVLS you can have just 64-96 VLS cells and fill them customized as mission needs without fixed armament with mix of nirbhay,brahmos-2,barak-er,maybe even quad pack a navalized version of DRDO quick reaction PDM and asroc type ASW missile.
For anti torpedo duty you install a paket-ng or german sea spider type system.
Heavy weight toredo tubes remain as they are.
Along with 1-2 helicopters(romeo) and ACTAS towed array sonar(active) plus HUMSA-NG2 active/passive sonar you got excellent ASW capability.

'UVLS' is just the term used for the L&T-manufactured launchers installed on all ships that carry BrahMos. They are only 'Universal' in the sense that they can carry either of the vertically launched AShMs in service (BrahMos and Klub). They are not Universal like the US Mk.41 cells are. You cannot put Barak-8 in them.

I have no information on whether SMART is designed to fit the UVLS specifically, or if it just uses the same 533mm torpedo tubes that normal torpedoes would otherwise launch from. IMO, using the UVLS for SMART is a bad idea. Reason being that the number of cells for carrying cruise missiles is very limited on Indian ships, we don't have 90+ interchangeable cells like Arleigh Burke has. So filling, say, 4 of these cells with SMART would mean that you have 4 fewer cruise missiles at your disposal.

 

[Austerlitz]

'UVLS' is just the term used for the L&T-manufactured launchers installed on all ships that carry BrahMos. They are only 'Universal' in the sense that they can carry either of the vertically launched AShMs in service (BrahMos and Klub). They are not Universal like the US Mk.41 cells are. You cannot put Barak-8 in them.

I have no information on whether SMART is designed to fit the UVLS specifically, or if it just uses the same 533mm torpedo tubes that normal torpedoes would otherwise launch from. IMO, using the UVLS for SMART is a bad idea. Reason being that the number of cells for carrying cruise missiles is very limited on Indian ships, we don't have 90+ interchangeable cells like Arleigh Burke has. So filling, say, 4 of these cells with SMART would mean that you have 4 fewer cruise missiles at your disposal.

I believe the new generation destroyer will probably have 'true' universal cells like us mk41.Maybe there can be a few other cells for odd one out munitions like smart or brahmos 2.

 

[Parthu]

I believe the new generation destroyer will probably have 'true' universal cells like us mk41.Maybe there can be a few other cells for odd one out munitions like smart or brahmos 2.

Perhaps. But I must say it is unlikely...as that will entail integrating Russian and Israeli-origin fire control systems under one framework. Easier said than done. If we cannot integrate Israeli missiles with Russian FCR on fighter jets (or vice versa), there's no reason to believe this will be possible either.

There is also another problem, a logistical one. Our AShMs are very big compared to our SAMs. If we make a truly Universal VLS (where all the cells have to be big enough to accommodate the AShM), it will simply result in a lot of wasted space & inefficient use of limited real estate, as they won't be big enough to quad-pack Barak-8s either.

Just look at the disparity in size between the BrahMos VLS and the Barak-8 VLS (ignore the highlights, not relevant to this discussion):

Just 16 BrahMos launchers take up almost twice the space occupied by the same number of Barak launchers. If you develop a true UVLS around the BrahMos, you effectively halve the number of other missiles you can carry in a given piece of deck space. Not really a good idea.

 

[Austerlitz]

Perhaps. But I must say it is unlikely...as that will entail integrating Russian and Israeli-origin fire control systems under one framework. Easier said than done. If we cannot integrate Israeli missiles with Russian FCR on fighter jets (or vice versa), there's no reason to believe this will be possible either.

There is also another problem, a logistical one. Our AShMs are very big compared to our SAMs. If we make a truly Universal VLS (where all the cells have to be big enough to accommodate the AShM), it will simply result in a lot of wasted space & inefficient use of limited real estate, as they won't be big enough to quad-pack Barak-8s either.

Just look at the disparity in size between the BrahMos VLS and the Barak-8 VLS (ignore the highlights, not relevant to this discussion):

Just 16 BrahMos launchers take up almost twice the space occupied by the same number of Barak launchers. If you develop a true UVLS around the BrahMos, you effectively halve the number of other missiles you can carry in a given piece of deck space. Not really a good idea.

The brahmos in any universal cells will be brahmos mini ,which is much smaller.Brahmos 2 may require specialized cells though.
Brahmos-m will be closer to nirbhay.Lets wait and see.