Korean KF-21 Boramae & Turkish KAAN Fighter Developments

[Rajput Lion]

India has something which both Turkey and South Korea(especially the former), don't have.......i.e., a successful fighter project already under the bag. The experience of Tejas program would ensure that AMCA is much better in every which way than the above two. People may think that this is just bragging or optimism, but just wait for few years and we shall know.......

 

[Ashwin]

India has something which both Turkey and South Korea(especially the former), don't have.......i.e., a successful fighter project already under the bag. The experience of Tejas program would ensure that AMCA is much better in every which way than the above two. People may think that this is just bragging or optimism, but just wait for few years and we shall know.......

You really don’t know about T-50 ? Unlike tejas it actually kept timelines and exported to multiple countries. They also have way more matured industry in general.

In “few years” there is no chance of AMCA flying but Koreans will start production.

 

[Arpit]

I actually agree with you, I am just generally optimistic of the SoKo defense industry these days. They have shown themselves well able to design/manufacture complex systems at the highest levels and deliver on time. If push comes to shove I believe they can expedite their next blocks.

Actually, they have never developed MRCA, even T-50 is not a full MRCA, moreover difference in Block-1 and Block-2 is addition of A-G modes. Block-1 will only have A-A modes. So, if we compare timelines from Tejas Mk2 PDR, there timeline for developing a 4.5 gen fighter is far worse than ours. And far more costly. So, I am not so sure about Koreans.

View attachment 32494
They already made concessions when designing the KF-21. They created recessed bays on the fuselage of their block 1. I don't understand why they didn't go all the way and just integrate an IWB from the start when they clearly were thinking in that direction.

I don't think it's smart to do block iteration like this at all, because whats the point? Getting a few squads out earlier? Saving some money upfront?

They have access to F-35s that are much more capable than what the current block 1 KF-21 has to offer. A few extra F-35s versus however many block 1KF-21s they're planning to order would offer more value while waiting for the full development of the stealthy KF-21. The cost of developing later blocks with IWB and retrofitting earlier ones (if it's even possible) is going to be so much more expensive down the road.

I also find it hard to believe that they were having technical difficulties with this. They are one of the most advanced technical bases on earth and even without that they basically have access to anything within the US defense industry.

I generally favor the block style development but not when you are cutting such a critical aspect of the whole design.

Actually we are also doing Block iteration in AMCA, Mk-1 & Mk2 is nothing but block iteration. But problems SK going to face with KF-21 is massive, KF-21 is not a FGFA airframe, the bulkhead is not even titanium.

Furthur, it is not going to be as simple that they add IWB and it be VLO. They have to do massive changes in airframe, then rebuild the PV vehicles, and then do the flight testing agian.

I couldn't believe this was true but apparently it is. There doesn't seem to be any reputable info about the Turks testing the RCS of their frame locally or in another country. They are really just relying on published figures for geometry and whatever computer simulations they have. Incredible.

KF-21 is somewhat a serious proposition, but I dont think the first VLO fifth gen KF-21 going to fly before 2038-2040. But KAAN is a joke, I dont want to use much more harsh words, but anyone who developed FGFA likes of Lockheed, seeing there plans must be laughing on them.

You really don’t know about T-50 ? Unlike tejas it actually kept timelines and exported to multiple countries. They also have way more matured industry.

In “few years” there is no chance of AMCA flying but Koreans will start production.

T-50 is not a MRCA, KF-21 is there first try in developing 4.5 gen MRCA, so there is no question of maturity or immaturity.

 

[Arpit]

They have this project called ÖZGÜR Project in which are upgrading their F-16s with GaN AESA radar. I think they likely have a working AESA Radar with GaN TRMs for all modes.

What is rather interesting is where did they get GaN power amps from? Who is selling them this tech? Highly doubt they have semiconductor industry for that. Must be some European country?

If they are so confident about it, then why going for SABR in F-16 V upgrade. It doesnt make any sense.

 

[Ginvincible]

Actually, they have never developed MRCA, even T-50 is not a full MRCA, moreover difference in Block-1 and Block-2 is addition of A-G modes. Block-1 will only have A-A modes. So, if we compare timelines from Tejas Mk2 PDR, there timeline for developing a 4.5 gen fighter is far worse than ours. And far more costly. So, I am not so sure about Koreans.

Sorry I was unclear. I was generally contrasting the Indian and South Korean defense industries for the reason why I have a lot of confidence in the Koreans. They have a robust manufacturing base, spend a lot on R&D and just posses a lot of inertia versus the more lethargic posture of the modern Indian defense environment. I'm sure India will get there in time as the country grows.

Also are you sure about those timelines?

T-50 first flight - 2002
KF-21 first flight - 2022
KF-21 2 Seat first flight - 2023

Tejas first flight - 2001
Tejas mk2 first flight - ??????

How can you say Korea's development of a 4.5 fighter is much worse when they basically have a sexier version of what India plans for up in the air already?

I get the the KF-21 Block 1 isn't a fully multirole fighter (more reason why they should have just waited for a proper block 1) but a prototype of the 2 seater multirole version has already flown.

Actually we are also doing Block iteration in AMCA, Mk-1 & Mk2 is nothing but block iteration. But problems SK going to face with KF-21 is massive, KF-21 is not a FGFA airframe, the bulkhead is not even titanium.

Furthur, it is not going to be as simple that they add IWB and it be VLO. They have to do massive changes in airframe, then rebuild the PV vehicles, and then do the flight testing agian.

I can't agree more. I think doing block iteration is definitely the correct way to develop new platforms but the way the Koreans went about it is short sighted. Penny wise, pound foolish. The first block really should have featured IWB with accommodating fuselage design/stealth geometry/etc

 

[Saaho]

If they are so confident about it, then why going for SABR in F-16 V upgrade. It doesnt make any sense.

AFAIK, they are not going for SABR but something called MURAD, which is their AESA radar.

 

[Arpit]

AFAIK, they are not going for SABR but something called MURAD, which is their AESA radar.

The Republic of Türkiye has requested to buy 40 new F-16 aircraft and to modernize 79 existing F-16 aircraft to V-Configuration. The request includes: thirty-two (32) F-16 C Block 70 aircraft; eight (8) F-16 D Block 70 aircraft; forty-eight (48) F110-GE-129D engines (40 installed, 8 spares); one hundred forty-nine (149) Improved Programmable Display Generators (iPDG) (40 installed, 10 spares, 99 for modernization program (79 installed, 20 spares)); one hundred forty-nine (149) AN/APG-83 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Scalable Agile Beam Radars (SABR) (40 installed, 10 spares, 99 for modernization program (79 installed, 20 spares)); one hundred sixty-nine (169) Modular Mission Computers (MMC) 7000AHC (or available mission computer) (40 installed, 10 spares, 119 for modernization program (79 installed, 40 spares)); one hundred fifty nine (159) Embedded Global Positioning System (GPS) Inertial Navigation Systems (INS) (EGI) with Selective Availability Anti-Spoofing Module (SAASM)

Türkiye – F-16 Aircraft Acquisition and Modernization | Defense Security Cooperation Agency

www.dsca.mil

 

[Ginvincible]

AFAIK, they are not going for SABR but something called MURAD, which is their AESA radar.

If they are so confident about it, then why going for SABR in F-16 V upgrade. It doesnt make any sense.

I believe you are both right.

The MURAD won't be going into the latest F-16Vs or the 70/72 kits they ordered from the US. It will be part of a domestic modernization of the rest of their Blk 30s that they are doing in house. They have the source codes for the blk30s and it is too expensive to modernize all of them using imported kits so they have their own modernization version basically. The imported F-16Vs and the ones upgraded through imported kits will feature the SABR.

 

[Saaho]

I believe you are both right.

The MURAD won't be going into the latest F-16Vs or the 70/72 kits they ordered from the US. It will be part of a domestic modernization of the rest of their Blk 30s that they are doing in house. They have the source codes for the blk30s and it is too expensive to modernize all of them using imported kits so they have their own modernization version basically. The imported F-16Vs and the ones upgraded through imported kits will feature the SABR.

From what I have read in Janes, they asked US to approve sale of modernization kits quite some time back. But US was not moving fast enough so they also have a domestic option. That kind of forced Biden to move faster on the kits they originally asked for.

 

[Arpit]

Sorry I was unclear. I was generally contrasting the Indian and South Korean defense industries for the reason why I have a lot of confidence in the Koreans. They have a robust manufacturing base, spend a lot on R&D and just posses a lot of inertia versus the more lethargic posture of the modern Indian defense environment. I'm sure India will get there in time as the country grows.

Level of military R&D is almost similar.

Also are you sure about those timelines?

T-50 first flight - 2002
KF-21 first flight - 2022
KF-21 2 Seat first flight - 2023

Tejas first flight - 2001
Tejas mk2 first flight - ??????

Tejas Mk.1 was not a 4.5 gen fighter, but a 3.5/4th gen MRCA. T-50 never was a MRCA.

Also, I might have said Block 2 of KF-21, what I meant was EMD Phase 2. So, in 2026 they are not delivering it with A-G modes. But for Tejas Mk2, your radar will be ready from first flight with all the interleaved and standalone modes. And first flight of Tejas Mk2 will happen by 2027, thats for sure, and from first flight you be flying a production variant (not a prototype for development of other avionics and testing) and after that 2000 hours of flight testing.

How can you say Korea's development of a 4.5 fighter is much worse when they basically have a sexier version of what India plans for up in the air already?

I get the the KF-21 Block 1 isn't a fully multirole fighter (more reason why they should have just waited for a proper block 1) but a prototype of the 2 seater multirole version has already flown.


I can't agree more. I think doing block iteration is definitely the correct way to develop new platforms but the way the Koreans went about it is short sighted. Penny wise, pound foolish. The first block really should have featured IWB with accommodating fuselage design/stealth geometry/etc

Where I am saying it is much worse as a 4.5 gen fighter,it be as much capable as any other 4.5 gen fighter. But comparing it with AMCA would be travesty. Koreans have not begun to build FGFA, but you are building it right now.

All I was saying that comparing it with Tejas Mk2 is far right thing to do, rather than with AMCA.

 

[Arpit]

From what I have read in Janes, they asked US to approve sale of modernization kits quite some time back. But US was not moving fast enough so they also have a domestic option. That kind of forced Biden to move faster on the kits they originally asked for.

It took almost took 1500 hours of flight testing by the time, you have delivered the 3rd Netra, that much time it took to develop LPI capability in it. For several interleaved modes & standalones modes ( especially GMTI/GMTT & ISAR for NCTR)in Uttam, you are flying it since 2016. I read somewhere that in 2021 or 2022, it completed 200 hours of flight testing on Tejas PV. And I guess by the time Tejas Mk2 fly, it be around 700 hours.

That much flight hours it takes to develop MMRs. So be rest assured, they be buying SABR from US, there own radar is not coming soon.

 

[Ashwin]

T-50 is not a MRCA, KF-21 is there first try in developing 4.5 gen MRCA, so there is no question of maturity or immaturity.

You can't make your own definition of these. Explain how T-50 and it's derivatives are not a multi role fighter.

 

[Arpit]

You can't make your own definition of these. Explain how T-50 and it's derivatives are not a multi role fighter.

Are you for real?

Only first Block 10 was delivered to Poland integrating Sniper pod, they have not even integrated any BVRAAM, and that will come with PhatomStrike(which is a aircooled) and AMRAAM in Block 20. On there own website they dont call it multi role figter, but you want to call it multirole?

KAI KOREA AEROSPACE INDUSTRIES, LTD.

KAI, Korea Aerospace Industries, Commercial Aircraft, Commercial Helicopter, Military Aircraft, Military Helicopter, Unmanned Aerial Vehicle, Defence and Space, Aircraft Company, Aerostructure, Satellite, Space Launch Vehicle, MRO, Training System, KF21, KF-21, T-50, FA-50, KT-1, KC-100, LAH...

www.koreaaero.com

There is reality, and there is fantasy world.

 

[Asterion Moloc]

I actually agree with you, I am just generally optimistic of the SoKo defense industry these days. They have shown themselves well able to design/manufacture complex systems at the highest levels and deliver on time. If push comes to shove I believe they can expedite their next blocks.



View attachment 32494
They already made concessions when designing the KF-21. They created recessed bays on the fuselage of their block 1. I don't understand why they didn't go all the way and just integrate an IWB from the start when they clearly were thinking in that direction.

I don't think it's smart to do block iteration like this at all, because whats the point? Getting a few squads out earlier? Saving some money upfront?

They have access to F-35s that are much more capable than what the current block 1 KF-21 has to offer. A few extra F-35s versus however many block 1KF-21s they're planning to order would offer more value while waiting for the full development of the stealthy KF-21. The cost of developing later blocks with IWB and retrofitting earlier ones (if it's even possible) is going to be so much more expensive down the road.

I also find it hard to believe that they were having technical difficulties with this. They are one of the most advanced technical bases on earth and even without that they basically have access to anything within the US defense industry.

I generally favor the block style development but not when you are cutting such a critical aspect of the whole design.


I couldn't believe this was true but apparently it is. There doesn't seem to be any reputable info about the Turks testing the RCS of their frame locally or in another country. They are really just relying on published figures for geometry and whatever computer simulations they have. Incredible.

It is due to contractual obligations between LM and Soko govt, according this Korean-American guy on twitter:
https://twitter.com/FacelessManTwit

The contract was to receive help in designing 4.5 gen fighter, so Korean did bait-n-switch by having this design in block-1 making it not a true 5th gen, but Lockheed has to support the design, while they will modify it as a true 5th gen in future or something along the lines he said, you can search on his profile for the same.
@Parthu

 

[Ashwin]

Are you for real?

Only first Block 10 was delivered to Poland integrating Sniper pod, they have not even integrated any BVRAAM, and that will come with PhatomStrike(which is a aircooled) and AMRAAM in Block 20. On there own website they dont call it multi role figter, but you want to call it multirole?

KAI KOREA AEROSPACE INDUSTRIES, LTD.

KAI, Korea Aerospace Industries, Commercial Aircraft, Commercial Helicopter, Military Aircraft, Military Helicopter, Unmanned Aerial Vehicle, Defence and Space, Aircraft Company, Aerostructure, Satellite, Space Launch Vehicle, MRO, Training System, KF21, KF-21, T-50, FA-50, KT-1, KC-100, LAH...

www.koreaaero.com

There is reality, and there is fantasy world.

They already have everything for a multi role fighter. From modern radar, air to air missile, JDAM, lank attack bombs. That's not enough to call multi role?!.

It fits perfectly for the definition of multi role. Open the link again, they advertise the multi role capability. Gradual, development cycle from trainer to light fighter.

 

[Arpit]

They already have everything for a multi role fighter. From modern radar, air to air missile, lank attack bombs. That's not enough to call multi role?!.

It fits perfectly for the definition of multi role.

Yeah, we have everything for 5th gen fighter too.

 

[Bon Plan]

They have this project called ÖZGÜR Project in which are upgrading their F-16s with GaN AESA radar. I think they likely have a working AESA Radar with GaN TRMs for all modes.

What is rather interesting is where did they get GaN power amps from? Who is selling them this tech? Highly doubt they have semiconductor industry for that. Must be some European country?

If true, why are they purchasing US kit for F16V ?
To have a prototyp of a radar, built in lab, and a mature on, with coherent and complete softs for air to air & air to ground modes built on a serial scale are two very different things. You can add 10 years between the two, at least.

 

[Bon Plan]

I don't think it's smart to do block iteration like this at all, because whats the point? Getting a few squads out earlier? Saving some money upfront?

It is a safer way. They cleverly decided to built the wall brick by brick. A 4th ++ gen before a 5th one.

 

[Arpit]

They already have everything for a multi role fighter. From modern radar, air to air missile, JDAM, lank attack bombs. That's not enough to call multi role?!.

It fits perfectly for the definition of multi role. Open the link again, they advertise the multi role capability. Gradual, development cycle from trainer to light fighter.

View attachment 32496

Okey, this is from your poster

So, are you seeing any BVRAAM? Because I am not, and without BVRAAM how you be doing BARCAP, using only gun & sidewinder?

This is real bad, that even after Balakot & afterwards facing PAF, we still dont understand multirole missions.

 

[Ashwin]

Okey, this is from your poster
View attachment 32507

So, are you seeing any BVRAAM? Because I am not, and without BVRAAM how you be doing BARCAP, using only gun & sidewinder?

This is real bad, that even after Balakot & afterwards facing PAF, we still dont understand multirole missions.

Thats why i asked how did you define multi role. It already has a powerful multi mode radar. BVR missile is just a matter of requirement. Its designed to fulfil the role of a trainer then gradually improved to light fighter. They already have other fighters to even intercept saucer.

Are you really making argument that BVR not integrated so they cant make a fifth generation in the future?