Even if these second hand aircrafts are acquired and fitted with upgrades, the lifespan of their airframes will be maximum 12 years. The money that'll be invested for them will not be small, and eventually it'll not be useful in either quantity boost or, quality/capability boost. Best way is to push forward LCA MK2 with maximum efforts. Don't think VERY SHORT TERM PSYCHOLOGICAL SATISFACTION, but LONG TERM CAPABILITY DEVELOPMENT.
LCA AF Mk2 (Medium Weight Fighter) - News and discussions
- Thread starter Schwifty
- Start date
The LCA MK2 hasn't even done it's prototype flight testing. It will take until 2032-2035 before we realistically get the first squadron of LCA Mk2
We need numbers and refurbishing and upgrading Mirage, Jaguars and Mig 29 will give huge industrial abilities anyway.
Data Patterns already has a GaN Aesa compatible with mi29 and mirage just refit them and integrate the Astra, Scalp and SAAW.
Ghatak doesn't exist right now. And the Ghatak cannot carry Rampage.
So we are planning for today ?
Well i bet, ghatak will be ready for induction before tejas mk2
And ghatak dont need to fire rampage, its vlo(more stealthy than f22/f35)
It can easily launch glide bombs with over 80km range or micro turbo jet powered with over 150km range like spice 250 er
I'm planning for 2028-2030. When Agenda 2030 actually comes in affect.
I know that LCA MK2 is still in prototype phase, even first flight is due. But either Mirage 2000 or, Mig 29 , no jet will fill up the gap (in capability & quantity both) with our Adversaries, even if we put upgrades like AESA radar + BVRAAMs. Look these jets are not built on open architecture design to accept whatever upgrade we want in a modular way. These jets are highly limited in their acceptance of modification. So to bring these to the level of a proper 4.5 gen fighter level a huge money will be required.
Look, I'm not against bringing Mirage 2000 & Mig 29 for the purpose of Spare parts & refurbishment to involve upgrades to be used in combat roles for near future conflicts.
But, they can never be an alternative for LCA MK2. LCA MK2 is the most necessary Aircraft, even more than AMCA.
IAF & GoI need to push this project with ADA+HAL with maximum efforts at any cost. This project is about forming the backbone of IAF & NATION's security.
I wish all that could be done but we are stuck with the American engines. Until ge-414 isn't produced in numbers we ain't getting the LCA MK2.
Immediate expansion path requires us to
Manufacture 84-150 su-30 mki (super std)
Refurbish mig 29 +12 airframes +license production of Mig 29,29k and 35(all powered by rd-33series 3) Hal Nashik & Koraput Expansion
Refurbish Jaguar buy more older airframes from UK and France and go for Darin 4 programme along with massive expansion of CATS program.
Refurbish Mirage and buy Qatari, Greek, French , UAE and Taiwanese Airframes and integrate SCALP, SAAW and Astra 1ER. Hal Bengaluru Expansion
Do a limited buy of 72 Su-57 airframes possibly with al-117s. With further license production of al-177 and al-117s
We will realistically induct 200-300 aircraft in a span of 3-4 years. Around 700-800 (possible 1000)combat jets air force. These newly raised squadrons can be later replaced with the new MK2 squadrons and AMCA when they come online by 2035.
How long do think u think we ll take to buy second hand jets and refurbish it ?
It ll will take 5 years minimum.
Better to buy second hand Su 30 else where and add it with our UPG program.
Heck open private sector line of Mk1A if it comes to that.
We are trying get rid of kichadi legacy platforms .. why induct it again.
Mk2 is more kickass fighter.. which can launch even brahmos NG . There are no restrictions to integrate weapons of any country.
Also share quite a lot of avionics with Amca .
Only thing we are not confident in the time lines ..
Hardest Nut to deal is engines , which we haven't signed yet.
Look , Su 30 MKI is the backbone of IAF , & will remain so for atleast more 10 years. It is a fantastic Aircraft. But, the lifecycle cost & cost per flight of Su30MKI is pretty high ( which is ofcourse due to its high fuel consumption, engine life is lower in comparison to western counterparts, not a very open/modular architecture design ).
Along with Super Sukhoi Upgrades we'll surely increase the total numbers of Su30MKI for sure. But, we also need to address the restrictions coming with this aircraft. We need (1) an aircraft which will have an open/modular architecture to support any future upgrade easily completely by ourselves without any foreign interventions, (2) an aircraft with lower lifecycle cost, (3) lower cost per flight, (4) higher engine life , (5) and ofcourse with more capabilities in terms of new generation systems.
LCA MK2 is the answer for these questions. It is unfortunate that engine has always been a roadblock for us & also a foreign intervention passage in our aspirations. I don't want to recall the past , just want to believe in future.
I actually don't want to say it , but it is true that TOO MUCH DEMOCRACY for a newly formed country being under a very very long colonial rule ( even from pre-british times) made INDIA SLOW. Our politicians, Govt.s, Defence organisations & overall the people never felt the urge of being protected from foreign evils through domestic upgrades in key-stone projects. Only after being attacked by Adversaries repeatedly for decades & betrayal by the suppliers we thought about our self advancement. I think the time has come to analyse the future dynamics and we need to build ourselves capable to stand against any future challenges in any form & front.
Both of these don't actually exist.
It won't take more than year for running 2-3 squadrons of mirage and mig 29's. Same with Jaguar.
The unsung heroes of Operation Sindoor were the AI power L/40 Bofors and the Jaguar armed with Rampage. The Mirage could very well be integrated with SCALP and we can do our own Mirage ROSE style program.
We need bomb trucks the era of super-maneuverability isn't required with the advent of standoff munitions.
Iran literally bombed American airbases with an f-5 in 2026. The Jaguar and Mirage are far more capable than the f-5.
We can open 30 lines of Mk1a but you can't do shit when you can't even produce the engine and are dependent on Americans to run your engine.
Someone in the MoD and airforce needs to really wakeup and order the re-engining of the Tejas to the rd-33mk3. We already have an engine with 90kN wet thrust that is being produced by Koraput from Raw Material stage. The same issue ironically happened with the Arjun where we are using a dated German engine that was not even being used by the Germans for the Leo 2a4 and has been out of production. Now Datran is still in testing but imagine falling for the same problem twice. Whatever happens we need a Tejas mk1E powered with the rd-33. Only the rd-33 will allow us to have export success for the Tejas not the Ge-404. And the GoI in any case needs to get license production of the Ge-404 in20. It's embarrassing that nobody in the GoI or IAF had enough sense to ask for license production of the Ge-404. Import Air force and their luxurious aspirations have led us to this.
IAF is unlikely to get to 60 squadrons.
They will get an increase to 45 in a decade, and then at best another 5 or 6 in the 2040s. Max 51-52.
Any new increases will only be filled in with AMCA and 6th gen at this point.
I don't have any solid proof to support the actual number of squadrons under consideration. But I know one thing that the strength of 42 squadrons was determined by our military strategists after 1962 & 1965 wars. I'm sure at present context by observing the strength of our adversaries, the number is increased by significant margin. Otherwise the 2 front or, 3 front engagement scenario, that we've heard from our strategists, will not be possible.
It may be 55 squadrons , may be 60 squadrons, or, may be 65 squadrons. And ofcourse this increase will take more than a decade for sure.
Yep. 39.5 squadrons were sanctioned, later raised to 42. We are very likely to see 45.
The IAF wanted 60 squadrons for the entire subcontinent. I believe this also considered the US as a threat from the sea at the time, so we needed an even 20 squadrons for each front.
After the SU fell, we rapidly started militarization of the air force and navy due to the threat from the US, that's also why we tested nukes. That's how we got all those big deals with Russia. And we went back to talking about 60 squadrons. But Clinton came running to India to make peace and half a decade later, once we became sure the US will not be a military threat, we went back to our usual 42+3 squadron plan.
Crossing 50 squadrons is also speculation, but our current orderbook doesn't make sense without at least approaching 50. Or squadrons will have to be phased out and rolled into others, like converting 7 Rafale F3/F4 squadrons of 18 jets each into 6 squadrons of 21 jets. The same can be done to MKI as well. The MLU is for 84 jets, that's 21 jets per squadron.
GE F404 engine production is getting sorted out, with 2 engines per month from this year..
If needed we can order more ..
We are buying French mirages for securing spare parts ..there are no more spares available..and it's getting costly to maintain it.
To get aesa radar in mirages is not going to be easy and cheap or quick.
Data patterns Mig 29 aesa radar is yet to get orders.. read somewhere mig 29 life is too short to go for upgrade.
They blame democracy when the true culprit is socialism/communism under the Nehru-Gandhi parivar. They want to bring that back.
We should have been a capitalist democracy right from the start.
I agree. Look, total numbers of PLA Air force fighter jets ( keeping JH7 bombers out) is about 2300+ at present, out of which about 700+ are deployed for our side. On the other hand Pakistan has about 420 fighter jets , out of which 350+ are deployed for our side.
That means a total of ( 700 + 350 ) = 1050 fighter jets of adversaries dedicated for us.
Now take other fronts of India with Bangladesh, Myanmar, Nepal & Sri Lanka into account. On top of that we need dedicated Air wing for Andaman and Nicobar Islands for Indonesian front + threats in Malacca & around .
This threat perception analysis says a simple requirement of 1200+ fighter jets for India to counter all the possible threats into account.
Which means (1200 ÷ 18) = 66 (about) squadrons of fighter jets required minimum.
Orderbook, Imports, Indigenous development, Internal politics.... Nothing will change this threat perception. I don't know the thoughts of our strategists at present. But the real-life scenario is much more difficult than what we're thinking.
We don't need orders. We need production of these engines in India. We can't depend on the Americans entirely for our frontline fighter aircraft.
For India to have minimum credible deterrence we need atleast 60-70 squadrons a combat aircrafts and atleast a squadron of long range bombers.
What we really need is 100 squadrons.
Apart from the char-sau-bees Pakistanis, the real threats today are just J-10s, J-11BGs, J-16s, and J-20s. They come up to about 1200 jets. Out of that, the WS-15 equipped J-20s have started only from this year. The rest of the Chinese fleet is quite useless due to the Tibetan wall or due to obsolescence.
Today, only 50-60 J-10Cs and 14 J-20s are deployed against India in Tibet. And there are another 100-200 jets elsewhere. It's not 700. You are counting the stuff deployed closer to Mongolia and Central Asia. Most of their 4th gen and higher are deployed in the plains to the east.
And we don't need one jet for every one of theirs. Fighters protect airspace, so numbers are determined by the size of the airspace and how many jets you might lose protecting it. We just need 100 jets each on both sides for air defense, the rest are for attrition replacements and other roles.