LCA Tejas Mk1 & Mk1A - News and discussions
- Thread starter Ashwin
- Start date
-
- Tags
- indian defence forum
What I had said about dual rack pylons was not Hot Air. Now it's coming in open....
Depends on whether it's a wishlist loadout or a real one. For now, only pylons for CCMs have been shown.
Mk2 has showed it off for BVR.
Dual rack launcher for astra has been mentioned in couple of previous drdo tenders and other doc. It is unclear if the ejector one or the rail launch (unlikely ?) but there is very good chance its in the work. Whether they put it on mk1a is another thing of course.
Speed up production of Tejas so that IAF's operational readiness is not impacted, Parliamentary panel asks Ministry of Defence to nudge HAL to speed up production.
It's in the works for Mk2. There's no news about it for Mk1A.
In any case adding more missiles on Mk1A serves no real purpose. As long as it can carry 4 missiles, it's sufficient. The dual pylons being developed for it are so it can carry an EW pod on one station with 2 missiles on the other.
Dual racks on Mk2 are for international competitiveness rather than for an operational need.
Marut Redux
Ram Naam Satya Hai....
GTRE restarted work on Kaveri with afterburner this year. I guess it's our fallback program for both LCA Mk2 and AMCA.
If GE is deliberately stalling the program, which I doubt at this point in time, then Mk1A is in trouble. It will be worse than Marut. And we don't have a quick alternative on the anvil, neither aircraft nor engine.
Tell us what power you want for the Mk1A and what interface specifications would be suitable and we'll come up with an M88 that complies with these elements in 6 months, in time to avoid delaying the Mk1A. The new 90kN Rafale F5 engine, with the same dimensions as the current M88, is already flying, so making a pseudo F414 will be really easy.
Last edited:
While France's technological prowess isn't in any doubt , I doubt the redesigning & testing protocols will be of an order of magnitude less than the time it takes for us to wait it out assuming GE can get it's act together & still stick to its committed delivery schedule of delivering the entire lot by 2028 or with a year of delay.
You might get the engine ready in time, but we will need time to test it in all conditions all over again and certify it. And then it has to be produced and delivered.
We are playing a balancing act between France and the US, with France potentially dominating MRFA and the MRCBF, with US stepping in for domestic programs. If LCA, MRFA, TEDBF and AMCA end up with French engines, then that's too much French leverage over India. I believe this is what they want to avoid. So the main alternative for LCA Mk1A is not a French engine, it has to be American or even Kaveri.
I have no idea why the govt and industry prefer to bet on the Americans without sufficient leverage. In the 90s and 2000s, massive deals with Russia and potentially France (all the way until MMRCA was canceled) acted as sufficient leverage. This time we have nothing. Even if they delay delivery by another year, we will have to svck it up.
Mk1A is probably the cheapest jet in the world right now. If the delays are deliberate, then their main goal is likely to hurt LCA's export prospects. They have already achieved a delay of 16 months, another 6 months or so will force HAL to only meet the IAF's needs, by which time the Koreans will have developed the F-50.
GE claims some Korean company producing engine parts in Korea has gone bankrupt and that's led to supply chain issues. But what they have not mentioned is why the Koreans continue getting their engines.
Even if HAL decides to build more airframes, if GE decides to continue using this excuse to curtail delivery numbers, then the IAF's program alone will take years more to finish. So if the engine is delayed even further, we need to assume that it's deliberate.
Replacing F404 with M88 for the next batch of 97 can be an option, though I doubt it will be exercised. Even though IAF will end up with 2 engine supply chains, the numbers are sufficient to stabilize costs. Meaning, in India, once jet numbers cross a threshold, a new type does not add significantly to the cost. Rafale production and exports can reduce overall costs.
And F414 could also go the same route, so I hope ADA is prepared to accept an alternative. But it's difficult to do that when the Americans can freely twist signed contracts.
GE claims some Korean company producing engine parts in Korea has gone bankrupt and that's led to supply chain issues. But what they have not mentioned is why the Koreans continue getting their engines.
Even if HAL decides to build more airframes, if GE decides to continue using this excuse to curtail delivery numbers, then the IAF's program alone will take years more to finish. So if the engine is delayed even further, we need to assume that it's deliberate.
Replacing F404 with M88 for the next batch of 97 can be an option, though I doubt it will be exercised. Even though IAF will end up with 2 engine supply chains, the numbers are sufficient to stabilize costs. Meaning, in India, once jet numbers cross a threshold, a new type does not add significantly to the cost. Rafale production and exports can reduce overall costs.
And F414 could also go the same route, so I hope ADA is prepared to accept an alternative. But it's difficult to do that when the Americans can freely twist signed contracts.
Congratulations ( Sarcasm)
as we all know the issue is the engine from day one. Here comes the official words from air chief.
www.ndtv.com
"Tejas, we started inducting it in 2016...We should go back to 1984 when the project was conceived. The aircraft flew 17 years later in 2001. Then, the induction started another 16 years later in 2016. Today we are in 2024 and I (Indian Air Force) do not have the first 40 aircraft...This is the production capability. We need to do something and I'm very convinced that we need to have competition, we need to have multiple sources available so that people are wary of losing their orders, otherwise, things won't change," he added.
The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) programme was envisioned in the late 1980s to replace the MiG-21 and Su-7 fleet. The programme got a boost in the late 90s and on January 4, 2001, the Technology Demonstrator-1 (TD-1) version of the LCA was airborne and rechristened 'Tejas', a significant moment in the Indian Air Force's history.
The Second Series Production (SP2) Tejas aircraft was given initial operational clearance in 2016. The Tejas Mk1 version was inducted in the Air Force's No. 45 Squadron - 'The Flying Daggers'. Later, another Tejas squadron, the No. 18 Squadron - 'The Flying Bullets' began operating the Mk1 variant.
The Tejas fighter jet is manufactured by the Bengaluru-headquartered Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).
ACM AP Singh stressed the importance of having private players in defence manufacturing and production and said, "R&D loses its relevance if it is not able to meet the timeline. Time is a very important thing. We need to give greater leeway to the researchers. There will be failures, let's not be scared of failures. I think we are losing a lot of time because we are scared of failure...Defence is one sector where time is very important. If we don't meet the timeline, technology is of no use. So we need to learn from our failures, move on and not be scared of those failures."
"R&D funds are woefully short. We are just about at 5%, and it should be at 15% (of the defence budget). We have to make sure that these funds are increased and they are available to private players also...We need to increase the schemes to have more private players, and maybe have a competitive approach."
"As far as defence is concerned, we have concerns from our northern and western adversaries. Both of them are increasing their forces at a rapid pace. As far as China is concerned, it is not just numbers. The technology is also growing at a rapid pace. We just saw the flight of the latest new generation aircraft that they have pulled out.. the stealth fighter," the Air Chief Marshal said.
China is the second country in the world after the US to have at least two types of stealth fighter jets -- J-20 and J-35 -- have been developed in China in record time. Meanwhile, the so-called 6th generation fighter is up for trial.
'2025 - The Year Of Reforms'
The Ministry of Defence has declared 2025 as the 'year of reforms'. With an "aim to further bolster Jointness & Integration initiatives and facilitate the establishment of the Integrated Theatre Commands."
"Acquisition procedures need to be made simpler and time-sensitive to facilitate swifter and robust capability development."
"Facilitate technology transfer and knowledge sharing between the defence sector and civil industries, promoting public-private partnerships by improving ease of doing business." "Position India as a credible exporter of defence products, fostering R&D and partnerships between Indian industries and foreign Original Equipment Manufacturers for knowledge sharing & resource integration," are among several areas for focussed intervention.
The Tejas MK1A variant, the advanced version of the MK1, which is already operational in two squadrons, took to the skies on March 28 last year for a historic test flight.
The air force plans to raise the first squadron of the indigenous LCA Mark 1A fighter aircraft squadron at the Nal air base in the Bikaner district of Rajasthan near the Pakistan front. The Tejas will replace one of the two MiG-21 squadrons already stationed.
The new variants are expected to be delivered by July but a report in Times of India from October last year said that the HAL will be able to deliver only two to three Tejas MK1A instead of the 16 promised to the IAF in the 2024-2025 fiscal under the deal to procure 83-such fighter jets.
Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Defence Minister Rajnath Singh have flagged the delay in delivery of 99 GE F404 engines during their visit to the US and GE has promised to begin supply by March 2025, already two years behind the schedule.
A report on Financial Express said the Centre has imposed penalties on GE Aerospace over the two-year deal. The first timeline to deliver the engines was March 2023.
"We are working with our partner HAL and suppliers to resolve constraints and deliver F404-IN20 engines for the LCA Mk1 programme," Financial Express reported, quoting GE Aerospace.
Tejas has proven to be one of the best multi-role fighters of its weight and class and has an impeccable safety record since its first flight in 2001. The 4.5 generation aircraft can be used for multiple roles like ground attack, interception, air-to-air combat and air defence. Nigeria, Philippines, Argentina and Egypt have shown interest in procuring indigenously-developed Tejas Light Combat Aircraft
The 'Demand for Grants 2024-2025' report on defence flagged the shortage of fighter aircraft in the air force and said the IAF needs at least 180 fighter jets under the present circumstances. The strength may further deplete after the phasing out of the ageing MiG-21 which has been in service since 1963 and has undergone multiple overhauls over 60 years. The MiG-29s, SEPECAT Jaguars, and Mirage-2000s are other aircraft procured in the 1980s.
"This (falling squadron strength) will be addressed in the long run by the timely induction of Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft (MRFA) and LCA Mark II. Critical combat enablers like the airborne early warning aircraft, flight refuellers and special electronic intelligence and surveillance are an integral element of modern-day combat," PTI reported, quoting an IAF representative.
....................................
as we all know the issue is the engine from day one. Here comes the official words from air chief.
"First 40 Tejas Still Not...": Air Force Chief As China Tests 6th Gen Jets
Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal AP Singh, flagged delays in the delivery of the Tejas fighter aircraft into service, calling for increased private partnership in developing defence products and providing more funds for Research and Development
www.ndtv.com
"Tejas, we started inducting it in 2016...We should go back to 1984 when the project was conceived. The aircraft flew 17 years later in 2001. Then, the induction started another 16 years later in 2016. Today we are in 2024 and I (Indian Air Force) do not have the first 40 aircraft...This is the production capability. We need to do something and I'm very convinced that we need to have competition, we need to have multiple sources available so that people are wary of losing their orders, otherwise, things won't change," he added.
The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) programme was envisioned in the late 1980s to replace the MiG-21 and Su-7 fleet. The programme got a boost in the late 90s and on January 4, 2001, the Technology Demonstrator-1 (TD-1) version of the LCA was airborne and rechristened 'Tejas', a significant moment in the Indian Air Force's history.
The Second Series Production (SP2) Tejas aircraft was given initial operational clearance in 2016. The Tejas Mk1 version was inducted in the Air Force's No. 45 Squadron - 'The Flying Daggers'. Later, another Tejas squadron, the No. 18 Squadron - 'The Flying Bullets' began operating the Mk1 variant.
The Tejas fighter jet is manufactured by the Bengaluru-headquartered Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).
ACM AP Singh stressed the importance of having private players in defence manufacturing and production and said, "R&D loses its relevance if it is not able to meet the timeline. Time is a very important thing. We need to give greater leeway to the researchers. There will be failures, let's not be scared of failures. I think we are losing a lot of time because we are scared of failure...Defence is one sector where time is very important. If we don't meet the timeline, technology is of no use. So we need to learn from our failures, move on and not be scared of those failures."
"R&D funds are woefully short. We are just about at 5%, and it should be at 15% (of the defence budget). We have to make sure that these funds are increased and they are available to private players also...We need to increase the schemes to have more private players, and maybe have a competitive approach."
China's 6th Gen Fighter
The Air Force chief's concerns over the delay in Tejas' procurement comes amid China's development of its '6th Generation stealth fighter jet' and its recent trials that took the internet by storm."As far as defence is concerned, we have concerns from our northern and western adversaries. Both of them are increasing their forces at a rapid pace. As far as China is concerned, it is not just numbers. The technology is also growing at a rapid pace. We just saw the flight of the latest new generation aircraft that they have pulled out.. the stealth fighter," the Air Chief Marshal said.
China is the second country in the world after the US to have at least two types of stealth fighter jets -- J-20 and J-35 -- have been developed in China in record time. Meanwhile, the so-called 6th generation fighter is up for trial.
'2025 - The Year Of Reforms'
The Ministry of Defence has declared 2025 as the 'year of reforms'. With an "aim to further bolster Jointness & Integration initiatives and facilitate the establishment of the Integrated Theatre Commands."
"Acquisition procedures need to be made simpler and time-sensitive to facilitate swifter and robust capability development."
"Facilitate technology transfer and knowledge sharing between the defence sector and civil industries, promoting public-private partnerships by improving ease of doing business." "Position India as a credible exporter of defence products, fostering R&D and partnerships between Indian industries and foreign Original Equipment Manufacturers for knowledge sharing & resource integration," are among several areas for focussed intervention.
GE F404 Engine Delay
The Indian Air Force has ordered 83 Tejas Mk1A variants in a Rs 36,468 crore deal with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited. In November last year, the Defence Acquisition Council cleared the project to acquire 97 more Tejas jets for the Indian Air Force. The Tejas fighter jets will be powered by US-made General Electric's F404 fighter jet engines.The Tejas MK1A variant, the advanced version of the MK1, which is already operational in two squadrons, took to the skies on March 28 last year for a historic test flight.
The air force plans to raise the first squadron of the indigenous LCA Mark 1A fighter aircraft squadron at the Nal air base in the Bikaner district of Rajasthan near the Pakistan front. The Tejas will replace one of the two MiG-21 squadrons already stationed.
The new variants are expected to be delivered by July but a report in Times of India from October last year said that the HAL will be able to deliver only two to three Tejas MK1A instead of the 16 promised to the IAF in the 2024-2025 fiscal under the deal to procure 83-such fighter jets.
Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Defence Minister Rajnath Singh have flagged the delay in delivery of 99 GE F404 engines during their visit to the US and GE has promised to begin supply by March 2025, already two years behind the schedule.
A report on Financial Express said the Centre has imposed penalties on GE Aerospace over the two-year deal. The first timeline to deliver the engines was March 2023.
"We are working with our partner HAL and suppliers to resolve constraints and deliver F404-IN20 engines for the LCA Mk1 programme," Financial Express reported, quoting GE Aerospace.
Tejas has proven to be one of the best multi-role fighters of its weight and class and has an impeccable safety record since its first flight in 2001. The 4.5 generation aircraft can be used for multiple roles like ground attack, interception, air-to-air combat and air defence. Nigeria, Philippines, Argentina and Egypt have shown interest in procuring indigenously-developed Tejas Light Combat Aircraft
Falling Squadron Strength - A Cause Of Concern
Forty-two is the sanctioned squadron strength for the Indian Air Force but currently, only 31 are active. A fighter squadron has typically 18 aircraft including two trainer aircraft.The 'Demand for Grants 2024-2025' report on defence flagged the shortage of fighter aircraft in the air force and said the IAF needs at least 180 fighter jets under the present circumstances. The strength may further deplete after the phasing out of the ageing MiG-21 which has been in service since 1963 and has undergone multiple overhauls over 60 years. The MiG-29s, SEPECAT Jaguars, and Mirage-2000s are other aircraft procured in the 1980s.
"This (falling squadron strength) will be addressed in the long run by the timely induction of Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft (MRFA) and LCA Mark II. Critical combat enablers like the airborne early warning aircraft, flight refuellers and special electronic intelligence and surveillance are an integral element of modern-day combat," PTI reported, quoting an IAF representative.
....................................
Year-Over-Year Tejas Mk1 Production & Production Line Performance
• 2014: One Aircraft (Line 1)
• 2015: Zero Production
• 2016: Two Aircraft (Line 1)
• 2017: Three Aircraft (Line 1)
• 2018: Six Aircraft (3 from Line 1 and 3 from Line 2)
• 2019: Four Aircraft (2 from Line 1 and 2 from Line 2)
• 2020: Two Aircraft (Line 1)
• 2021: Seven Aircraft (4 from Line 1 and 3 from Line 2)
• 2022: Seven Aircraft (4 from Line 1 and 3 from Line 2)
• 2023: One Aircraft (from Line 1)
Dassault had commissioned a study from the DGA, which showed that production could be described as industrial provided that a minimum of 11 aircraft were produced each year, otherwise it would be small-scale production, which meant, for example, that parts were not interchangeable from one aircraft to another.
• 2014: One Aircraft (Line 1)
• 2015: Zero Production
• 2016: Two Aircraft (Line 1)
• 2017: Three Aircraft (Line 1)
• 2018: Six Aircraft (3 from Line 1 and 3 from Line 2)
• 2019: Four Aircraft (2 from Line 1 and 2 from Line 2)
• 2020: Two Aircraft (Line 1)
• 2021: Seven Aircraft (4 from Line 1 and 3 from Line 2)
• 2022: Seven Aircraft (4 from Line 1 and 3 from Line 2)
• 2023: One Aircraft (from Line 1)
Dassault had commissioned a study from the DGA, which showed that production could be described as industrial provided that a minimum of 11 aircraft were produced each year, otherwise it would be small-scale production, which meant, for example, that parts were not interchangeable from one aircraft to another.
Last edited:
ACM's comment was just a political cheapshot to ensure ADA/HAL (DPSUs in general) cannot be easily trusted with their dates. The real reason is not HAL but IAF's small order, and the small order is because ADA's Mk1 was not up to par in 2015. And the goal is to make sure MRFA goes through. The real litmus test is Mk1A's serial production, so judgment should be rendered on this program, not Mk1.
The thinking going around some bureaucrats and politicians pushed by vested interests is LCA Mk2 + Ghatak can relinquish the need for MRFA. Bureaucrats want to save money, politicians want to cut imports, vested interests do not want a private sector competitor.
HAL plans fourth assembly line for Tejas jets at Nashik to make up for delivery delay
The failure of United States to deliver the F-404 engines for Tejas Mk-1 is the reason for HAL not being able to start the production of home-grown combat jets for the Indian Air Force, which is struggling with depleting squadron numbers.New Delhi: Aiming to accelerate the production of Tejas LCA, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited plans a fourth assembly line for manufacturing the home-grown fighter jet to make up for the lost time once General Electric starts supplying the engines, top sources told DH.
The failure of United States to deliver the F-404 engines for Tejas Mk-1 is the reason for HAL not being able to start the production of the combat aircraft for the Indian Air Force, which is struggling with depleting squadron numbers.
“GE currently has a backlog of 26 engines, but the company said it would deliver the first one by March and subsequently ramp up the production,” sources said here.
HAL has two LCA assembly lines in Bengaluru with a capacity of producing eight aircraft each. It also has a third facility at Nashik that also has the capacity of making eight aircrafts annually. The first LCA Tejas from the Nashik plant is likely to roll out by March.
The aviation major is now planning a second assembly line at Nashik, but it will come up only after the supply of engines from GE becomes regular. The company will need 1.5 years to establish the new facility.
The Defence Ministry in 2021 signed an agreement with the HAL to supply 83 LCA Tejas Mk-1 – 73 fighters and 10 trainers – to the IAF at a cost of Rs 45,696 crores. For these aircraft, GE was to supply 99 engines.
While the US company claims "supply-side constraints" for its failure to deliver the engines in time, Defence Minister Rajnath Singh took up the issue with his US counterpart in his last visit. Indian officials also held a number of meetings with their US counterparts to resolve the crisis.
The stalemate in LCA production comes at a time when the number of IAF fighter squadrons is going down.
As against the sanctioned 42 squadrons of fighter jets, the IAF currently has 31 squadrons, but the strength will dip further this year with the phasing out of the last two squadrons of MiG-21s. Also the two squadrons of first generation Tejas LCA are used primarily for training.
Earlier this week, Air Chief Marshal AP Singh said the IAF didn’t receive even the first batch of all the 40 Tejas LCA though the first one was inducted way back in 2016. HAL has supplied 38 aircraft so far and the last two trainers will be delivered shortly.
From the existing stock of reserve engines, HAL has produced the first LCA Mk-1A while the second one is on the assembly line. The first LCA Mk-1A is now flying for various trials and is likely to fly in the upcoming Aero India 2025.
Published
