Line of Actual Control (LAC) : India & Tibet Border Updates
- Thread starter Shashank
- Start date
Those saying that India can easily overcome the Chinese in Ladakh and go all the way upto Lhasa, are overlooking some crucial aspects.
Both Indian Army and the PLA are not the same as in 1962. We are not going to be fighting the same war.
Indian soldiers will have higher motivation and are battle hardened and battle tested, however, the Chinese have some crucial advantages over us.
1). The Chinese have reasonably good surveillance technology and along with its satellites has fairly good idea about Indian positions.
2). The Chinese have a big advantage over us in drone technology. They have a variety of armed and unarmed drones. We have all seen the effectiveness of Turkish drones in Syria and Libya recently. To counter the same we do not have a large number of relatively cheap drones of our own, neither do we have good short range air defence systems. The upgrade of crucial gun based AD systems is still on going and there are issues with the ammo. Man portable SAMs are obsolete as we still rely on the Igla-1M. Best we can muster is the Tunguska. The follow on of the same, the Pantsir, was shred to pieces by the Turkish drones. The QRSAM is not yet ready. The best option would be the Spyder systems, which we would be forced to move from the western border. Either that or send in our airforce jets to take on the Chinese drones. A highly inefficient solution, which would also cost us a lot. If the armed drones start taking a toll, it would force us to use our jets to counter the same. The worst would be that it would not be possible for us to easily make out if the drones in the air are armed ones or cheap unarmed ones. In some cases the Spyder or air to air missiles used against the drones, might end up being more expensive than the drones themselves. Our Rustam-II is still in development and the arms to be carried by it are also not ready.
3). The Chinese also have a big advantage in armed helicopters. We do not have the same on our side. The Mi-35s cannot be used at that altitude. The LCH hasn't entered production, the Rudra still doesn't have its primary weapon system and the Apache's are still being inducted and may not be available or only in very limited numbers. Against this, the Chinese can send in a large number of armed/attack helicopters. Once again, our low level AD options against these are limited. We would be forced to use our IAF jets, like how we scrambled a Su-30MKI, to counter a Chinese heli intruding into our airspace.
4). Tube artillery. The picture remains the same. The Sharang and Dhanush are still not available in numbers. The B-777 are still being inducted and may be available in limited numbers. Other possible options like the Bharat Forge Bharat-52 and ATAGS are not available. Only the 250-300 original bofors guns and the 180 odd Soltam upgraded M46 guns, would be are only options for large guns. Many of these would have to be withdrawn from the western front and the Pakistanis would make full use of the opportunity. They would pound us on the LoC and try and push in as many of their jihadis as possible. Already many from the afghan front might be becoming available for them, and this would cause another nightmare for us in the future.
5). Systems like the NAG missile have still not been inducted. The NAMICA mounted NAG would have been really useful, even the weather would allow the system to pickup any Chinese armoured vehicles or even bunkers etc., from its full range of 4Kms or even beyond. Alas, we don't have the system.
6). The FICV doesn't even remain on paper anymore and the upgrade of the BMP-2s is still pending. We have the T-72s and T-90 tanks deployed both in North Sikkim and Ladakh. However, the upgrade of the T-72 is pending. Upgrade of the engine to the T-90s 1000 HP engine would really help in this region. We have all seen the video of T-90 tanks slowly lumbering up the slopes in Ladakh. A higher powered engine would be required to effectively use the T-72s in the region.
In all of the above areas the Chinese have an advantage over us and though I still believe that the Indian Army would give them a bloody nose if the balloon goes up, the price to be paid maybe high.
copied from bharat rakshak, posted by mody
Both Indian Army and the PLA are not the same as in 1962. We are not going to be fighting the same war.
Indian soldiers will have higher motivation and are battle hardened and battle tested, however, the Chinese have some crucial advantages over us.
1). The Chinese have reasonably good surveillance technology and along with its satellites has fairly good idea about Indian positions.
2). The Chinese have a big advantage over us in drone technology. They have a variety of armed and unarmed drones. We have all seen the effectiveness of Turkish drones in Syria and Libya recently. To counter the same we do not have a large number of relatively cheap drones of our own, neither do we have good short range air defence systems. The upgrade of crucial gun based AD systems is still on going and there are issues with the ammo. Man portable SAMs are obsolete as we still rely on the Igla-1M. Best we can muster is the Tunguska. The follow on of the same, the Pantsir, was shred to pieces by the Turkish drones. The QRSAM is not yet ready. The best option would be the Spyder systems, which we would be forced to move from the western border. Either that or send in our airforce jets to take on the Chinese drones. A highly inefficient solution, which would also cost us a lot. If the armed drones start taking a toll, it would force us to use our jets to counter the same. The worst would be that it would not be possible for us to easily make out if the drones in the air are armed ones or cheap unarmed ones. In some cases the Spyder or air to air missiles used against the drones, might end up being more expensive than the drones themselves. Our Rustam-II is still in development and the arms to be carried by it are also not ready.
3). The Chinese also have a big advantage in armed helicopters. We do not have the same on our side. The Mi-35s cannot be used at that altitude. The LCH hasn't entered production, the Rudra still doesn't have its primary weapon system and the Apache's are still being inducted and may not be available or only in very limited numbers. Against this, the Chinese can send in a large number of armed/attack helicopters. Once again, our low level AD options against these are limited. We would be forced to use our IAF jets, like how we scrambled a Su-30MKI, to counter a Chinese heli intruding into our airspace.
4). Tube artillery. The picture remains the same. The Sharang and Dhanush are still not available in numbers. The B-777 are still being inducted and may be available in limited numbers. Other possible options like the Bharat Forge Bharat-52 and ATAGS are not available. Only the 250-300 original bofors guns and the 180 odd Soltam upgraded M46 guns, would be are only options for large guns. Many of these would have to be withdrawn from the western front and the Pakistanis would make full use of the opportunity. They would pound us on the LoC and try and push in as many of their jihadis as possible. Already many from the afghan front might be becoming available for them, and this would cause another nightmare for us in the future.
5). Systems like the NAG missile have still not been inducted. The NAMICA mounted NAG would have been really useful, even the weather would allow the system to pickup any Chinese armoured vehicles or even bunkers etc., from its full range of 4Kms or even beyond. Alas, we don't have the system.
6). The FICV doesn't even remain on paper anymore and the upgrade of the BMP-2s is still pending. We have the T-72s and T-90 tanks deployed both in North Sikkim and Ladakh. However, the upgrade of the T-72 is pending. Upgrade of the engine to the T-90s 1000 HP engine would really help in this region. We have all seen the video of T-90 tanks slowly lumbering up the slopes in Ladakh. A higher powered engine would be required to effectively use the T-72s in the region.
In all of the above areas the Chinese have an advantage over us and though I still believe that the Indian Army would give them a bloody nose if the balloon goes up, the price to be paid maybe high.
copied from bharat rakshak, posted by mody
Why you guys are always blaming weapon import? Look at the pics of gears in the hand of that chinese soldiers ! Our industry so far never produced something similar to that. Our armed forces should have top end weapons, that should be the priority, nothing else.
Well what do we have here :
A good thread on recent Chines behavior on the LAC and settlement issues :
A good thread on recent Chines behavior on the LAC and settlement issues :
The snow & passes clear up around April. Besides, you yourself have reported on the increase in the number of incidents since 2017 onwards. You could also as you have trace it back to Aug 2019 when Amit Shah made a reference to CoJ&K in Parliament something which triggered vigorous protests from the Chinese.We are doing it without any challenge or even a protest from China here are few big ones in past few months.
In same area last October-
Same area last December-
Indian Army builds Asia’s highest bridge at 16k ft above sea level along LAC
The construction of the bridge makes the delivery of necessary goods and weapons, to the Indian troops stationed at the border, easier.www.indiatoday.in
Arunachal, a month back -
Border Roads Organisation constructs strategic bridge in Arunachal Pradesh - The Economic Times
The Border Roads Organisation (BRO) constructed a 430 feet long bailey bridge at Daporijo over the Subansiri river in Arunachal Pradeshs Upper Subansiri district.m.economictimes.com
If you google properly you will find more. That couldn't definitely be a reason.
Thats one of the reason too but why now? A lot more has happened and happening after Doklam but they didn't care or protested. Don't you think our WHO adventure could be the trigger for this and for Nepal maps too?
So we should not ask what did that WHO thing achieved? What was our backup or rational or we expected to achieve by it? Even in best case it would not have damaged China a bit and we know China will try it's best to hurt us, so why this decision?
Or every failure is prohibited to be questioned in name of national security?
So, in your opinion we shouldn't be stating that China is in possession of Aksai Chin. In which case, what's the boundary talks for the past 3 decades all about? Besides, less than a decade ago China unilaterally declared their disputed boundary with India is only about 2000 kms effectively ruling out the dispute in the Western half ( Ladakh) . You're free to draw your own inferences on this one.
Chinese intrusions at 3 places in Ladakh, Army chief takes stock
At each of these places, around 800-1000 Chinese soldiers have crossed over to the Indian side of the LAC, sources said, at distances of around 2-3 km.
indianexpress.com
My only point is if you want to counter China at the behest of somebody by allocating nearly 4% of gdp (wish) and then only you might give some sort of confidence to decision maker .then sorry I will rather prefer development instead of being a part of great power game and pushing India towards pauperism.
It's not like by moving excessively close to the USA we will have flexibility to go against USA wishes .so why not mend fence with the neighbor .
regarding import how many indian weapon system has cleared trial and where are the orders ?it's not like army is giving any favors by inducting them .they have cleared trials and meet the criteria.
And has China produced those gear from the day one ??
You expect industry to burn their cash and then all of a sudden you will order from abroad ,change criteria thus making them go round and round ....
If this is the reasoning then on policy level we are trying to solve border dispute or Aksai Chin by confrontation? It's not reflected in actions though. There is confrontation only when other side ups the ante otherwise it's business as usual. We are almost exclusively defensive when it comes to any action (infra, forces, equipment etc.), even when Chinese forces are in confrontation with us we are defensive, waiting, watching, calling for reinforcements in case things go downhill, we are cautioning media, no statement from political leaders, army too very tight-lipped. How does this fit in our approach of giving it back to China?
If you are a soldier & if you have choice of selecting indian made insas/watered down ak203 over modern weapon like FN Scar or any other weapons, what will you do? I will never put my life on any indian gears. Man men who all are guarding our fenses need reliable potent userfriendly weapons. Sadly our baboos too have same sort of attitude like many key board warriors.
I do remember one incident report way back in early 2000s, i dont know its just a story or not. Some sarkari babus returned army's file on new snow defeating ( for siachin glaciers ) shoes from abroad, back then George fernandez was our DM ( i believe, he was the last able DM we have seen), what he has done that he transferred those babus and make them work in high altitude snowy regions for brief period. File got immediate clarence after that without any delay after they have served their duty there.
What i meant to tell is that give our soldiers the best we can provide asper their choice.
And IA wants more K9 Vajra, how many more pieces we have ordered so far?
Never knew , upgrading road on our side gives us a strong power which can put china in its place .
What do you suggest we do when they come & pitch their tents in our part of the LAC for weeks on end ?
A few posts ago you were warning against India playing the WHO card suggesting we cut some sort of a deal. Now you're suggesting we're too soft in our approach.
In fact he did call for the liberation of Aksai Chin which riled up the Chinese, if it's of any solace to you.
However, I don't know much about Shah to comment intelligently on him but there's something remarkably consistent about you that perhaps all the regular members here have noted & a few including myself have commented upon.
You're one of the few ones I've ever come across in my life who in spite of having all the pieces of the puzzle in your hand will go on to fit in the wrong pieces thus coming to a diametrically opposite conclusion of what you should.
@BlackOpsIndia
Sir , your Analysis is wrong
If US wants to really screw China , they will.do it in their sweet manner and timing
For example Torpedoes for Taiwan and
Restrictions on Chinese companies
In US stock market , And
Ban on Huawaei
These things have begun
Most importantly Trump has to be re elected for a US China Showdown to happen
India has NO leverage over US actions
WHO and Taiwan thing was Kiddish
China cares for Real Weapons being sold to Taiwan , Not some silly WHO membership
Now as far as India China border issue is concerned , China wants Complete
Capitulation -- Nothing else
But it is also worried about setting of a Chain Reaction in East Asia
If Today China is upset over India supporting Taiwan for WHO
Then WHAT will happen if US And European countries .start relocation
Of their Manufacturing units to
India
Will we stop.these companies from setting up units in India so as to Appease China
Sir , your Analysis is wrong
If US wants to really screw China , they will.do it in their sweet manner and timing
For example Torpedoes for Taiwan and
Restrictions on Chinese companies
In US stock market , And
Ban on Huawaei
These things have begun
Most importantly Trump has to be re elected for a US China Showdown to happen
India has NO leverage over US actions
WHO and Taiwan thing was Kiddish
China cares for Real Weapons being sold to Taiwan , Not some silly WHO membership
Now as far as India China border issue is concerned , China wants Complete
Capitulation -- Nothing else
But it is also worried about setting of a Chain Reaction in East Asia
If Today China is upset over India supporting Taiwan for WHO
Then WHAT will happen if US And European countries .start relocation
Of their Manufacturing units to
India
Will we stop.these companies from setting up units in India so as to Appease China
True, I was in favour of cutting deal with Chinese instead of getting over motivated and go for confrontation. That was my thinking based upon past and present strength, I think cutting deal was more beneficial.
But GoI thought it's best to confront them, so now I am trying to understand what could be the reason behind it. We knew that China will create problem on border so what did we plan beforehand to contain it when we decided to go the present way.
You have said this before too, what's right for you doesn't mean will be right for me, most of my questioning is inquiring the strength of counters to my arguments anyway I am not the topic.
I am no Sir buddy, what US does to China or China does to US is of not much concern to me, if India is involved into something we must go for what's best for us not for past baggage or morality or picking fight on behalf of others. Be ruthless, cunning, amoral if needed be when it comes to interest of Indians, always.
What was the trigger that prompted Chinks to supply nukes to Pak ?We are doing it without any challenge or even a protest from China here are few big ones in past few months.
In same area last October-
Same area last December-
Indian Army builds Asia’s highest bridge at 16k ft above sea level along LAC
The construction of the bridge makes the delivery of necessary goods and weapons, to the Indian troops stationed at the border, easier.
Arunachal, a month back -
Border Roads Organisation constructs strategic bridge in Arunachal Pradesh - The Economic Times
The Border Roads Organisation (BRO) constructed a 430 feet long bailey bridge at Daporijo over the Subansiri river in Arunachal Pradeshs Upper Subansiri district.
If you google properly you will find more. That couldn't definitely be a reason.
Thats one of the reason too but why now? A lot more has happened and happening after Doklam but they didn't care or protested. Don't you think our WHO adventure could be the trigger for this and for Nepal maps too?
So we should not ask what did that WHO thing achieved? What was our backup or rational or we expected to achieve by it? Even in best case it would not have damaged China a bit and we know China will try it's best to hurt us, so why this decision?
Or every failure is prohibited to be questioned in name of national security?
Jets, subs, missiles,tanks ?
Illegally constructing dams and roads in occupied territory?
This defeatist attitude is highly insulting to us. It’s like offering your daughter to a sadak chap bully just because you are too cowards to protect her.
Get over it. Surrendering the sovereignty is not an option here. And will never be.
If China is being aggressive it is for two reasons
1 Helping Pakistan
2 A kind of Warning that if India was to act in consonance with US in the post Covid scenario ,China will create problems
But then it was always on the Cards
Because China does not want to see India getting stronger
And now if Western counteies really start relocating their industries , China will turn on its aggression on India
We have to deal with it , it is inevitable
It will be a long time after India recovers that OIC will recover... OIC is in a much worse economic soup than us.. thanks to oil demand plummeting
Only in this case sadak chap bully is occupying your living room from last many decades, just came to your kitchen and passing objectionable comments on your family members and you are trying to handle it "maturely" by asking him to go back to living room and praying nobody sees what's happening and tell relatives outside to avoid embarrassment.
There's no doubt the Chinese are better prepared than India is. Even their infantry have better gear.