Line of Actual Control (LAC) : India & Tibet Border Updates

Ankit Kumar said:
To change our "holding off " strategy to " go inside" we first need to relive the units from possible threats from the west.

That's going to take some time, and so any action with China is 5-7 years away.
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Once we recover Aksai Hind from China which we can do now itself, it will set off a sequence of things and that will require us to have an hot LAC like LOC with frequent run ins and short skirmishes. Chinese will come again and again and test the resolve of Indian Govt. What happens if we really have Ra-Ga as our PM or Congress comes back to power? All the gains will be lost. But a detailed analysis tells us that if we give abloody nose to China now, we can actually remove it as a threat from world. After defeating them in Aksai Hind, we can actually cause frictions within the CCP. A military aim is not complete in itself unless it also achieves the political aim.

Hydra said:
I think only @vstol Jockey can verify this. @vstol Jockey Sir does Brahmos is really an invincible as indians claim? I feel it can be jammed by a powerful EW suit from an aircraft carrier. Pls clarify it.
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You need to understand how speed, detection, EW and CIWS react to a missile attack. Brahmos will surely be detected either by radars/EO/IR sensors or when it opens its radar to lock on to the target by ESMs but what it does is that its speed reduces that reaction time and also reduces the time to correct the trajectory of the counter measures fired against it. Finally it does an S manaevre which makes it extremely diffficult to intercept.
Lastly the reaction time to counter Brahmos can be further reduced by giving it data of the target thru a data link to ensure that its radar opens up very very late.
For a jammer to jam a seeker, the jammer must face the seeker of the missile or the seeker must be ON at that time. Brahmos has something very very different in it which I will not like to disclose to ensure that it can fool the ECM being employed against it.
 
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vstol Jockey said:
Yes. Armed Forces have clearly told Govt that without a military action, PLA can't be evicted with negotiations and if allow this to become a new normal, than we will end up losing complete Ladakh. GOI has given forces clearance to prepare for war.


They have given clear message to present GOI that chinese are here to stay and they will continue this salami slicing unless evicted from whole of Aksai Hind. There have been some very blunt talking between Military and GOI.
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Sir, what is the opinion of the Forces, that should we go in now or wait till 2023? Any idea on that?
 
Ankit Kumar said:
To change our "holding off " strategy to " go inside" we first need to relive the units from possible threats from the west.

That's going to take some time, and so any action with China is 5-7 years away.
Click to expand...

What we would like is if it happens 5-7 years later. But we may not have that much time.

It's to China's advantage if they attack us all over the LAC in the next 2-3 months. But if they wait, it will become a problem for them due to international pressure. Of course, this would require India keeps negotiating for a withdrawal and not accept it as a new status quo.
maint1234 said:
A wild thought - Distance from Afghanistan to ladakh is 750 km.
F35 has a combat range of 1200 km on internal fuel.
So if hostilities break out between the bat eaters and us , and the Americans actually want to get involved. Any possibility that these f35s carry out a few missions , with their stealth capability giving them deniability ?
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They are not gonna do that. Even if they want to, our air defence system will see them as hostiles.
 
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Ankit Kumar said:
In any case we have good enough force levels to hold off a Chinese attack on multiple fronts.

But we shouldn't dream of mounting a successful offensive action.
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We should have the ability to mount limited offensive missions in areas where we have the advantage. Units that have been reorganised into IBGs may have some extra punch for that.

But we need the fully-equipped MSC. Raising it should be a very high priority.
 
vstol Jockey said:
Once we recover Aksai Hind from China which we can do now itself,
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Not sure we can do that. We have 3 divisions in Ladakh, whereas the Chinese have 2 and can air lift one more within just 48 hours from Xinjiang. And they have tanks, both light and MBTs, and also wheeled guns.

So we may not have the punch neccesary to push the line back deep inside Karakoram range with our existing ORBAT. Not counting the fact that the Chinese have fully reorganised and modernised their army, while we are just starting ours.
 
randomradio said:
We should have the ability to mount limited offensive missions in areas where we have the advantage. Units that have been reorganised into IBGs may have some extra punch for that.

But we need the fully-equipped MSC. Raising it should be a very high priority.
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For any offensive capability we will need a lean and lethal airmobile mechanised infantry with support elements.

Army aviation will need a fleet of 60+ Chinooks, 150-200 Mi17s , 100s of Dhruv/LUH , 60-80 Apache , 100+ LCHs.

It will need air dropable IFVs on the line of BMDs of various types having ATGMs or 30mm canon or 90-105mm rifled guns, 105mm Truck Mounted SPHs, and other extremely light weight engineering support vehicles. Large number of precision guided MBRLS to target and destroy important targets upto range of 150km.

Then Airforce will need a fleet of 20+ A400M category aircrafts capable of transporting 30+ tons airmobile IFVs and SPHs and 25-30 C130J-30s. And 72-108 Rafales with SEAD/DEAD loadout and SCALPs.

All this for two formations of around 8000-10000 men each in Leh and NE.

All this is minimal equipment we will need to out manuver PLA formation across LAC just upto 150-200 deep. I am not talking about going upto the Plateau yet.


Now just put an optimistic number , that by when do you see it happening?
randomradio said:
What we would like is if it happens 5-7 years later. But we may not have that much time.

It's to China's advantage if they attack us all over the LAC in the next 2-3 months. But if they wait, it will become a problem for them due to international pressure. Of course, this would require India keeps negotiating for a withdrawal and not accept it as a new status quo.
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We need to strengthen our supply lines and dug in with stocks ready for a long haul. Because we have no capability to mount an offensive against them as of now.
 
screambowl said:
It's fitted with range/vel gate pull off systems :ROFLMAO:
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That is applicable for a radar and is first form of ECM. But we have ECCM and also ECCCM. How do you defeat chaff which create the same echo as that of a ship? Brahmos has that logic to defeat ECM/ECCM and also ECCCM including passive systems like chaff.
 
We need to create something like 82nd Airborne each for Leh/Ladakh and NE. That's around 25000 men. Instead of MSC we should have invested on these lines.
 
Ankit Kumar said:
For any offensive capability we will need a lean and lethal airmobile mechanised infantry with support elements.

Army aviation will need a fleet of 60+ Chinooks, 150-200 Mi17s , 100s of Dhruv/LUH , 60-80 Apache , 100+ LCHs.

It will need air dropable IFVs on the line of BMDs of various types having ATGMs or 30mm canon or 90-105mm rifled guns, 105mm Truck Mounted SPHs, and other extremely light weight engineering support vehicles. Large number of precision guided MBRLS to target and destroy important targets upto range of 150km.

Then Airforce will need a fleet of 20+ A400M category aircrafts capable of transporting 30+ tons airmobile IFVs and SPHs and 25-30 C130J-30s. And 72-108 Rafales with SEAD/DEAD loadout and SCALPs.

All this for two formations of around 8000-10000 men each in Leh and NE.

All this is minimal equipment we will need to out manuver PLA formation across LAC just upto 150-200 deep. I am not talking about going upto the Plateau yet.


Now just put an optimistic number , that by when do you see it happening?
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What you want to do is airdrop 4 IBGs of troops, but we do not plan on doing that. And we most definitely do not need that. To top that off, you have overestimated the need for so many helicopters and transports for just 4 IBGs.

C-17 Globemaster III Strategic Brigade Airdrop

www.globalsecurity.org www.globalsecurity.org
The SBA delivers - via airdrop (echelon A) and airland (echelon B) - a brigade-sized Army force of the 82d Airborne Division directly from CONUS (whenever possible) to any target area in the world. When performed solely by the C-17, the SBA consists of 53 airdrop (Alpha Echelon) and 46-48 airland (Bravo Echelon) sorties to deliver the XVIII Airborne Division's Ready Brigade-Medium. Items contained in the echelon B include some items that are too large to airdrop, such as tracked and other vehicles from the Immediate Ready Company (IRC). Ultimately, the force package will be tailored to a specific mission, with the Division Ready Brigade (DRB) medium the optimum force for planning.

So if we remove most of the heavier tracked stuff and replace those with the BMD-4, then we are talking about some 80-90 sorties using a single C-17 per IBG. Or 8-9 sorties with 10 C-17s. Add the 17 IL-76, 12 C-130Js or An-32s and the requirement for C-17s will reduce since we do not need to drop our troops to "any target area in the world". The existing fleet alone is enough to drop all the troops you mentioned. But again, we are not going to do that 'cause our troops are already located where they need to be.

For a limited war, with just 3 to 4 divisions fighting on either side, we have plenty.

Our existing air capability is more than enough for conducting offensive operations within the ambit of limited war on the Chinese front. What we lack is next gen capabilities at this particular time, like the 36 Rafales.
 
Ankit Kumar said:
To change our "holding off " strategy to " go inside" we first need to relive the units from possible threats from the west.

That's going to take some time, and so any action with China is 5-7 years away.
Click to expand...

What is going to happen in next 5-7 years to neutralize threats from west?
 
vstol Jockey said:
Once we recover Aksai Hind from China which we can do now itself, it will set off a sequence of things and that will require us to have an hot LAC like LOC with frequent run ins and short skirmishes. Chinese will come again and again and test the resolve of Indian Govt. What happens if we really have Ra-Ga as our PM or Congress comes back to power? All the gains will be lost. But a detailed analysis tells us that if we give abloody nose to China now, we can actually remove it as a threat from world. After defeating them in Aksai Hind, we can actually cause frictions within the CCP. A military aim is not complete in itself unless it also achieves the political aim.


You need to understand how speed, detection, EW and CIWS react to a missile attack. Brahmos will surely be detected either by radars/EO/IR sensors or when it opens its radar to lock on to the target by ESMs but what it does is that its speed reduces that reaction time and also reduces the time to correct the trajectory of the counter measures fired against it. Finally it does an S manaevre which makes it extremely diffficult to intercept.
Lastly the reaction time to counter Brahmos can be further reduced by giving it data of the target thru a data link to ensure that its radar opens up very very late.
For a jammer to jam a seeker, the jammer must face the seeker of the missile or the seeker must be ON at that time. Brahmos has something very very different in it which I will not like to disclose to ensure that it can fool the ECM being employed against it.
Click to expand...


WHICH is why I'm maintaining that India will not survive without a proper constitutional overhaul. Declare an emergency if needed to prevent 'softy' ice cream cone type politicians to come to power. Suspend elections and create a one party state for 15 years until the crisis we are facing is full tackled. We are war and we need wartime polity and economy to support it. Democracy and fruitcake rights are meant for normal/ peacetime luxuries. You think churchill enforced rights during the second world war?
 
Ghobbitses said:
WHICH is why I'm maintaining that India will not survive without a proper constitutional overhaul. Declare an emergency if needed to prevent 'softy' ice cream cone type politicians to come to power. Suspend elections and create a one party state for 15 years until the crisis we are facing is full tackled. We are war and we need wartime polity and economy to support it. Democracy and fruitcake rights are meant for normal/ peacetime luxuries. You think churchill enforced rights during the second world war?
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So you are saying that we should have a Civil war and Then later a War with China or BOTH at the same time :ROFLMAO:

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