Line of Actual Control (LAC) : India & Tibet Border Updates





The Chinese seem to have moved in multiple MBRL batteries, SPH, command centres, mobile surgical units , multiple camps, pre fab structures, etc in the Fingers area & floating piers along with heavy naval vessels on Pangong Tso lake . These don't seem like defensive formations by any stretch of imagination. They're here to stay &/or fight.
 
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_Anonymous_ said:




The Chinese seem to have moved in multiple MBRL batteries, SPH, command centres, mobile surgical units , multiple camps, pre fab structures, etc in the Fingers area & floating piers along with heavy naval vessels on Pangong Tso lake . These don't seem like defensive formations by any stretch of imagination. They're here to stay &/or fight.
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Even if GoI doesn't want to decide, the Chinks have made up their mind. They will force a decision on the GoI.

No govt can survive such a public surrender. GoI's decision is all but done. The million dollar question is - will India shed its shyness and actually initiate combat this time or will it wait for the other side.
 
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Jaymax said:
Even if GoI doesn't want to decide, the Chinks have made up their mind. They will force a decision on the GoI.

No govt can survive such a public surrender. GoI's decision is all but done. The million dollar question is - will India shed its shyness and actually initiate combat this time or will it wait for the other side.
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India should bide its time. Let the force multipliers like the rafales reach and be properly inducted.
But i don't see any news of the ordinance factories going into overdrive. If India is serious about throwing the bat eaters out , these sort of news/leaks are important
 
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maint1234 said:
India should bide its time. Let the force multipliers like the rafales reach and be properly inducted.
But i don't see any news of the ordinance factories going into overdrive. If India is serious about throwing the bat eaters out , these sort of news/leaks are important
Click to expand...

You think China will be sleeping while India gets a few more gizmos? Why will they not be increasing their strength.

We get Rafales, they get more fighters to throw at us. We get more guns, they add more. The levels remain the same.

What happens in this time is they firm up their presence and become harder to push out.
 
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maint1234 said:
India should bide its time. Let the force multipliers like the rafales reach and be properly inducted.
But i don't see any news of the ordinance factories going into overdrive. If India is serious about throwing the bat eaters out , these sort of news/leaks are important
Click to expand...

Learn some basics from Shaheen bagh. These things needs to be nipped in the bud without taking ant time.
 
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Jaymax said:
You think China will be sleeping while India gets a few more gizmos? Why will they not be increasing their strength.

We get Rafales, they get more fighters to throw at us. We get more guns, they add more. The levels remain the same.

What happens in this time is they firm up their presence and become harder to push out.
Click to expand...
Makes no sense. Defence procurement and deterrence are not linear. We have very critical defence induction and infrastructure development lined up for the next 2/3 years. China doesn't have any such new induction lined up which will disproportionately tilt the scales in their favour. Will give you an example. Let's say today India has 0 Agni V inducted and China has 150 ICBMs. This leaves us with no choice against China even if they hit our cities. Now cut to 3 years later let's say China adds another 150 and has a total of 300 ICBMs whereas we induct only 50 of them, still, the scales tip drastically in favour, as India acquires the ability to hit its centres even if in lesser numbers. Hope you understand.
 
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Jaymax said:
You think China will be sleeping while India gets a few more gizmos? Why will they not be increasing their strength.

We get Rafales, they get more fighters to throw at us. We get more guns, they add more. The levels remain the same.

What happens in this time is they firm up their presence and become harder to push out.
Click to expand...
They have su30s and su35s. Which effectively neutralize any advantage we have at the moment. They also have S-400 from quite a few years. I am not going to talk about their so called stealth plane like the j20 as its a unproven quantity.
The rafale introduces a unknown into the equation from their side. Since they are familiar with most of our weapon systems, Russia being a common supplier.
Our trump cards are rafale and Israeli systems.
With our present force level, they will just overwhelm our weapons with quantity. And they don't have to worry about casualties, as we see they are adept at hiding them.
 
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maint1234 said:
They have su30s and su35s. Which effectively neutralize any advantage we have at the moment. They also have S-400 from quite a few years. I am not going to talk about their so called stealth plane like the j20 as its a unproven quantity.
The rafale introduces a unknown into the equation from their side. Since they are familiar with most of our weapon systems, Russia being a common supplier.
Our trump cards are rafale and Israeli systems.
With our present force level, they will just overwhelm our weapons with quantity. And they don't have to worry about casualties, as we see they are adept at hiding them.
Click to expand...

Your idea is we will build up our strength while they will whistle and eat carrots in the sun. Does not work like that. If they are looking to fight they will counter each new acquisition with a countermeasure. Is it not what India does. Why would you expect China to be any different.
 
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Why dont Indian troops use silenced sniper rifles and pick off a few Chinese officers ?
Maybe terminate 3 to 4 every few days.
Make it a bit hot for the Chinese and put the ball in their court. At the moment they are just sitting pretty.
Also make a video of their heads being blown up. In the next FM video telecon , just show the Chinese the video. They won't be able to hide their casualties and the fear of ridicule might help them in retreating.
Jaymax said:
Your idea is we will build up our strength while they will whistle and eat carrots in the sun. Does not work like that. If they are looking to fight they will counter each new acquisition with a countermeasure. Is it not what India does. Why would you expect China to be any different.
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I am interested in what practical steps you suggest ?
 
maint1234 said:
Why dont Indian troops use silenced sniper rifles and pick off a few Chinese officers ?
Maybe terminate 3 to 4 every few days.
Make it a bit hot for the Chinese and put the ball in their court. At the moment they are just sitting pretty.
Also make a video of their heads being blown up. In the next FM video telecon , just show the Chinese the video. They won't be able to hide their casualties and the fear of ridicule might help them in retreating.

I am interested in what practical steps you suggest ?
Click to expand...

Its cute - from saying lets wait till we get xyz to asking me to provide practical steps. The turn around is remarkable.
 
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maint1234 said:
They have su30s and su35s. Which effectively neutralize any advantage we have at the moment. They also have S-400 from quite a few years. I am not going to talk about their so called stealth plane like the j20 as its a unproven quantity.
The rafale introduces a unknown into the equation from their side. Since they are familiar with most of our weapon systems, Russia being a common supplier.
Our trump cards are rafale and Israeli systems.
With our present force level, they will just overwhelm our weapons with quantity. And they don't have to worry about casualties, as we see they are adept at hiding them.
Click to expand...

They have parity with respect to platform not and advantage. The distance from front-lines and operating altitude cuts in severely into that parity. Even if they are able to disable our runways closer to the LAC, most other airfields will still be closer to the LAC and will remain operational. Again we can achieve the same with respect to them. Any Air raid they carry out will be a Kamikaze Mission not so with us. They can employ conventional rocket force on our runways but that's only one advantage they have. That too not critical, one successful counter attack on PLA Rocket artillery from us will severely dent them... in Battles such moments can change the entire course of events.

Their main objective with regard to S-400 and S-300 systems is for air defense of the heartland and of their Air bases respectively. I doubt they'll deploy their best equipment on front lines, against us and leave the main land open and vulnerable for the Americans to exploit. In war they will face losses, as will we, attrition losses will be more dangerous for them than us. A depleted PLA will be facing a lot of more advanced enemy equipment from US and Japanese than what is with us. We are not an existential threat for mainland China (CCP/PLA) and have limited areas of Conflict pertaining to Tibet region. They can live to fight another day even if they lose Tibet. But US and others are a bigger threat.. It would be a no brainer to have S-400 for the mainland, or rather lose them in battle over sheer stupidity.

Rafale is yet to be integrated in to the broader scope of our Air Combat spectrum, They are great tools but it will take about two three full fledged exercises to optimally design battle plans for them. It won't be introduced in a conflict, unless certain red lines are crossed and we have severe force depletion.

"Our trump cards are rafale and Israeli systems." please elaborate on this, with actually accounting for what those system can achieve . The gun is as good as the soldier operating it. They can be great they can be useless, *it depends*.

Our present force levels are enough to hold them off and fight pitched battle against them, outcome of events will lead to gains/losses. As the famous saying goes "No battle plan survives contact with the enemy".

edit: "Hiding casualty" doesn't translate into morale booster, it depletes it further. Wars have Social cost, how many single child families are willing to forget their only child lost in battle even without an acknowledgement. Even then attrition has consequences on the military, they wont go away by simply hiding them.
 
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Jaymax said:
Its cute - from saying lets wait till we get xyz to asking me to provide practical steps. The turn around is remarkable.
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Waiting to build up your strength is what i have proposed. Still awaiting your practical suggestions. Not necessary to reply if you have nothing to contribute.
 
Ashutosh said:
They have parity with respect to platform not and advantage. The distance from front-lines and operating altitude cuts in severely into that parity. Even if they are able to disable our runways closer to the LAC, most other airfields will still be closer to the LAC and will remain operational. Again we can achieve the same with respect to them. Any Air raid they carry out will be a Kamikaze Mission not so with us. They can employ conventional rocket force on our runways but that's only one advantage they have. That too not critical, one successful counter attack on PLA Rocket artillery from us will severely dent them... in Battles such moments can change the entire course of events.

Their main objective with regard to S-400 and S-300 systems is for air defense of the heartland and of their Air bases respectively. I doubt they'll deploy their best equipment on front lines, against us and leave the main land open and vulnerable for the Americans to exploit. In war they will face losses, as will we, attrition losses will be more dangerous for them than us. A depleted PLA will be facing a lot of more advanced enemy equipment from US and Japanese than what is with us. We are not an existential threat for mainland China (CCP/PLA) and have limited areas of Conflict pertaining to Tibet region. They can live to fight another day even if they lose Tibet. But US and others are a bigger threat.. It would be a no brainer to have S-400 for the mainland, or rather lose them in battle over sheer stupidity.

Rafale is yet to be integrated in to the broader scope of our Air Combat spectrum, They are great tools but it will take about two three full fledged exercises to optimally design battle plans for them. It won't be introduced in a conflict, unless certain red lines are crossed and we have severe force depletion.

"Our trump cards are rafale and Israeli systems." please elaborate on this, with actually accounting for what those system can achieve . The gun is as good as the soldier operating it. They can be great they can be useless, *it depends*.

Our present force levels are enough to hold them off and fight pitched battle against them, outcome of events will lead to gains/losses. As the famous saying goes "No battle plan survives contact with the enemy".

edit: "Hiding casualty" doesn't translate into morale booster, it depletes it further. Wars have Social cost, how many single child families are willing to forget their only child lost in battle even without an acknowledgement. Even then attrition has consequences on the military, they wont go away by simply hiding them.
Click to expand...
www.google.com

China will use J-20 fighter in a war with India, S-400 doesn't work at high altitudes

The Indian expert said he was skeptical that China would decide to deploy its next-generation J-20 fighter jets near the borders with India. China might need such airplanes in case of a full-scale war with India.
www.google.com www.google.com
This claims deployment of s400 in tibet , though questions its effectiveness.
Also Gen Bakshi had also tweeted that S400 has been deployed in tibet.
You are assuming that a Indo China conflict will automatically pull in usa and Japan. These countries won't be risking their personnel for India. They would rather observe with interest how a conflict takes place between two giants. USA might move its forces to pressurize china , incase India is getting the worse of it but no chance of active involvement.
Also again depending on the goodwill of china that they wont deploy their latest weapons against us is just wishful thinking. If i was China, i would test all my latest weapons against a middle power like India.
Indian pilots have been training on the rafale since 2019.
www.google.com

Indian Pilots Fly Rafale Jets At Indo-French Joint Exercise

With the first delivery of the Rafale fighter jet to New Delhi just a couple of months away, Indian pilots flew the aircraft in France this week, at a tactical exercise between the two countries, held at Mont-de-Marsan. The Chief of Staff of the French Air Force described the pilots of the two...
www.google.com
Though i take your point about deployment. In a war like situation, the niceties of proper induction will not stand. You fight with what you have and whatever training you have.
About Israel, i was referring to their radars.
Lastly your point about casualties. Propaganda is very critical in a war. It can increase morale or break it . Thats why i have a issue with ex officers from the IA , going on tv and being magnanimous about the green salwars. It was ok if it was the long gone past but we are in a active conflict with Chinese concubines , no need to boost their morale.
 
maint1234 said:
www.google.com

China will use J-20 fighter in a war with India, S-400 doesn't work at high altitudes

The Indian expert said he was skeptical that China would decide to deploy its next-generation J-20 fighter jets near the borders with India. China might need such airplanes in case of a full-scale war with India.
www.google.com www.google.com
This claims deployment of s400 in tibet , though questions its effectiveness.
Also Gen Bakshi had also tweeted that S400 has been deployed in tibet.
Click to expand...

I said what will be the sane thing to do. S400 can be deployed in the high altitudes. Its not that it won't work just that the terrain will provide enough shadow areas for fighters to hide and ultimately operate in blind spots, that's true for both sides. Please try coming up with your own arguments, media reports are a dime a dozen, not worth the paper (data space) they are written on.

maint1234 said:
You are assuming that a Indo China conflict will automatically pull in usa and Japan. These countries won't be risking their personnel for India. They would rather observe with interest how a conflict takes place between two giants. USA might move its forces to pressurize china , in case India is getting the worse of it but no chance of active involvement.
Also again depending on the goodwill of china that they wont deploy their latest weapons against us is just wishful thinking. If i was China, i would test all my latest weapons against a middle power like India.
Click to expand...

Security basics, never leave fronts open, always maintain war reserves in all theaters of combat or possible combat. War causes attrition of men and material, both. Also you are reading stuff not being written I didn't bank on the goodwill of PRC, I said if they decide to throw everything at us that will be stupidity, no one does that. Weapons have lead times in production and in deployment, Man power training mobilization . I am not banking on Japan and USA, I am saying that they are always a threat to CCP, theyll leave other avenues open if they are sure US wont do anything, is being too naive, they cant leave the Main land unprotected. If they do... good on them. CCP Political leaders will be too easy a target even for dissenters.

maint1234 said:
Indian pilots have been training on the rafale since 2019.
www.google.com

Indian Pilots Fly Rafale Jets At Indo-French Joint Exercise

With the first delivery of the Rafale fighter jet to New Delhi just a couple of months away, Indian pilots flew the aircraft in France this week, at a tactical exercise between the two countries, held at Mont-de-Marsan. The Chief of Staff of the French Air Force described the pilots of the two...
www.google.com
Though i take your point about deployment. In a war like situation, the niceties of proper induction will not stand. You fight with what you have and whatever training you have.
About Israel, i was referring to their radars.
Lastly your point about casualties. Propaganda is very critical in a war. It can increase morale or break it . Thats why i have a issue with ex officers from the IA , going on tv and being magnanimous about the green salwars. It was ok if it was the long gone past but we are in a active conflict with Chinese concubines , no need to boost their morale.
Click to expand...

Learning to fly a bird and having them war ready and integrated to the overall force structure are two different things. Even wars have thresholds, in convention. The side going in all bell and whistles from the get go, are playing too much COD. War is serious business, and as messy as it meets the eye... it is as skillful as surgeon in works, hence the word "Operation". Tools are employed to meet tactical objectives.. all aligned to meet a common Goal.

I don't comment on individual opinion and activities, ex Officers are free to say whatever they like, they have their own code of conduct and I'll leave it at that. Propaganda was winning Egypt in the 6 day war and Pakistan in 1971. In a conflict scenario all information is disinformation, believe only what you can independently verify.
 
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Ashutosh said:
I said what will be the sane thing to do. S400 can be deployed in the high altitudes. Its not that it won't work just that the terrain will provide enough shadow areas for fighters to hide and ultimately operate in blind spots, that's true for both sides. Please try coming up with your own arguments, media reports are a dime a dozen, not worth the paper (data space) they are written on.



Security basics, never leave fronts open, always maintain war reserves in all theaters of combat or possible combat. War causes attrition of men and material, both. Also you are reading stuff not being written I didn't bank on the goodwill of PRC, I said if they decide to throw everything at us that will be stupidity, no one does that. Weapons have lead times in production and in deployment, Man power training mobilization . I am not banking on Japan and USA, I am saying that they are always a threat to CCP, theyll leave other avenues open if they are sure US wont do anything, is being too naive, they cant leave the Main land unprotected. If they do... good on them. CCP Political leaders will be too easy a target even for dissenters.



Learning to fly a bird and having them war ready and integrated to the overall force structure are two different things. Even wars have thresholds, in convention. The side going in all bell and whistles from the get go, are playing too much COD. War is serious business, and as messy as it meets the eye... it is as skillful as surgeon in works, hence the word "Operation". Tools are employed to meet tactical objectives.. all aligned to meet a common Goal.

I don't comment on individual opinion and activities, ex Officers are free to say whatever they like, they have their own code of conduct and I'll leave it at that. Propaganda was winning Egypt in the 6 day war and Pakistan in 1971. In a conflict scenario all information is disinformation, believe only what you can independently verify.
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Most of your arguments are too shallow to be replied to.
I will just reiterate that incase of a conflict with India, china will use its latest weapons. Does not mean that it will divert all its forces or weapons to the western front.
 
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