Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion
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Agreed, their money will go further. A workforce working on low wage. They also have a large personnel, almost a jobs program. A compared amount is what I was saying. similar GDP, a comparable defence spending.
You are right, it is fictitious. The conversation reported in the newspaper, had the chief of air saying, even though the American's had better radar and weapons, it wasn't chosen. The UAE say the aesa Rafale is 10% less range, deficient modes etc than the aesa F-16 block 60. India agreed with the UAE.
Rafale News IX
Perhaps a bit too early after the lock of the other one? Anyway I'll give it a shot:
its nice that you put in the time, but that looks like it was written by a Rafale fan who had his own ideas and then made the rest up. so pretty in common with most of your posts, but at least this time you admit its fictional. That was refreshing.
Indian's goal to have locally produced and then indigenous design of it's future designed platforms, is achievable over time. Don't mistake my teasing the French, as a criticism of India.The Su-57 is still WIP. We moved out of FGFA because the Russians wouldn't give us documents, sovereign assurances of ToT and an evaluation flight of the existing prototypes. So we are gonna make our decision after Russia allows these things, so after 2024 or so. Politically too, they have gotten too close to China for our comfort. So any decision will be a GoI decision, not an IAF decision.
Anyway, we now want to make our own next gen jet and the Europeans are willing to help. That's also why the AMCA climbed all the way from a simple near 5th gen fighter with some stealth and no supercruise meant to merely replace the Jaguars to all-aspect next gen stealth, supercruise, unmanned capability etc that can perform any role.
As for Rafale, it has nothing to do with Su-57, it's an independent requirement that's happening in parallel. We need 300-400 jets altogether of both classes. One is a high end current gen jet that's proven in battle, the other is a high end jet for the future. It's the curse of an importer. We have to balance out the equation for strategic considerations.
AM Matheswaran: (the guy who began MMRCA on why MMRCA was limited to 30T)
And the question would have been raised, ‘Why can’t you buy more of the Su-30s’. Now you can’t put all your eggs in one basket – strategically, it’s unwise. That’s one of the primary reasons. And therefore you created this Medium Multi role Combat Aircraft (competition) which is 30 tons and below. Okay, so the Su-30 is 34 tons and above – 34 tons category.
The point of the Rafale is to limit the influence of the Russians within the IAF.
The Su-57 is cheap only if you directly import it from Russia. Any Su-57 that's made in India will climb up to a sky high price. Case in point, the $20M Su-30SM costs over $60M in India. The same with support costs, it's not gonna be cheap unless it's fully imported. So, with the exception of making a stopgap purchase of 2-3 squadrons directly imported from Russia, there's not gonna be a lot of focus on it from here on in India. And even this may not happen because the IAF has decided to bet big on AMCA.
“On the fifth generation (requirement), the AMCA has been given a go ahead and we have given it our whole support and are putting in our energies there. No import is planned in the foreseeable future,” the air chief said in response to a question by ET.
IAF Chief strongly backs indigenous 5th generation jet, says no plan to import
Last year, the IAF issued the initial tender known as the Request for Information to global aircraft companies to produce the jets in India along with an Indian firm.economictimes.indiatimes.com
The Su-57's competition is AMCA, not the Rafale.
UK submarines, divers in race against Russians to find crashed F35 stealth fighter jet: Report
UK submarines, divers in race against Russians to find crashed F35 stealth fighter jet: Report
Britain's ministry of defence earlier said that the jet crashed in an undisclosed location in the Mediterranean Sea, with the pilot safely ejecting and returning to the aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth.
Ah ah ah, a reference from 2010, before the serial RBE2 AESA was deployed. At that time the only RBE2 AESA that existed was a prototype AESA with 892 American T/Rs whereas the production AESA has between 1000 and 1100 European T/Rs.
The performance was estimated and Thales had committed to a 50% improvement in range over the PESA antenna, but the UAE demanded 10% more and to obtain this Thales proposed to change the cooling circuit pump to improve heat extraction, which allowed the average power to be increased from 10kw to 14kw, i.e. a 10% improvement in range.
But when the production radar was delivered, tests were carried out at the CEAM and the range was measured to be 100% better than the PESA antenna, well beyond the performance of the Emirati F-16 radar.
One small point. It wasn't LM.
"As described by three people, the Chief of Staff, the Chief of Test Flight, Tactics and Training, and the Chief of Logistics and Maintenance of the F-35 and F-16, the current flight hour costs for the F-35A were reported to be NOK 110.000 per hour, which is currently approximately EUR 11.000, including man-hours, maintenance, spare parts and fuel costs. Since the number is the lowest we had ever heard on the F-35, it naturally amazed us. That’s why I asked how its hourly cost compares to the F-16 still in use. The answer was convergent [among the three]: it is about the same size."
No doubt the AESA had a large improvement over the PESA. You will need a link to show that it had better range, modes, function than the APG-80 AESA radar at the time. it issems you are backing away from that.
If you are talking later , you will need APG-83 after 2010.
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What is fiction is the form of a dialogue between two people, because in reality the exchanges were much more complex with backtracking, many organisations involved and points of view that were refined during the exchanges. But every Indian here knows that in substance this is not an invention on my part but a true description of what happened.
I don't need anything, I don't care if you believe me or not, if I answer you it is to inform Indian readers, not you. You just forget that Indians can measure performance every day.
Who to believe? Someone who has been shown to be deceitful on a forum, or general Alain SILVY.
Raging much? When is your french plane AESA getting GMTT/GMTI and EW capability? F4? Why has it taken this long when all US AESA fighters have this capability.
AESA? The old F/A-18 had Moving target in 1983, The Rafale will be more than 20 years behind with F4
You are right, it is fictitious. The conversation reported in the newspaper, had the chief of air saying, even though the American's had better radar and weapons, it wasn't chosen. The UAE say the aesa Rafale is 10% less range, deficient modes etc than the aesa F-16 block 60. India agreed with the UAE.
Rafale News IX
Perhaps a bit too early after the lock of the other one? Anyway I'll give it a shot:www.key.aero
That 10% thing appears to be referring to the PESA. The PESA version has 10% lesser range than the F-16's AESA. It does 140Km against a 3m2 target while the F-16's AESA does about 160Km. The Rafale's AESA exceeds 250Km.
Modes are just software, as they are developed they are unlocked. The IAF had also asked for additional modes from all MMRCA competitors.
In the GTG too, I believe many modes were added.
Here are the 13 India-specific weapon enhancements of IAF's Rafale
American radars would have gone through the same process, as is the case anywhere for any technology.
The IAF is different, they paid $50 m to get what they needed. Did you read the article, it specifically referred to AESA F3That 10% thing appears to be referring to the PESA. The PESA version has 10% lesser range than the F-16's AESA. It does 140Km against a 3m2 target while the F-16's AESA does about 160Km. The Rafale's AESA exceeds 250Km.
Modes are just software, as they are developed they are unlocked. The IAF had also asked for additional modes from all MMRCA competitors.
In the GTG too, I believe many modes were added.
Here are the 13 India-specific weapon enhancements of IAF's Rafale
www.republicworld.com
American radars would have gone through the same process, as is the case anywhere for any technology.
"However, the key Emirian demand is about the range of the RBE2. And, with the same antenna diameter, the only way to achieve the 10% range increase (compared with the Basic AESA F3 "roadmap") that wish to obtain the Emirians, is a big boost to the power of the radar."
Earlier, Rafale production + LCA production --> FGFA production + simpler AMCA production.
Now, LCA production + Rafale production --> reconfigured AMCA production
The delays in all our programs have allowed our indigenous industry to catch up with IAF demands. It's made us weaker in the short term, but the long term benefits are greater.
Anyway, this isn't about India. It is about how Russia is being unnecessarily underestimated. They have both the money and the technology, and this is going to become evident over time as more stuff comes out in open source.
Most of the stuff in it is was revealed over the years through media reports in India.
This was the time when internally one thinking was pushing for F-16 + American support while another was pushing for doing things ourselves, another wanted Russian jets over French ones and vice versa. The IAF obviously will choose actual capability over politics in any case, so everybody not supporting Rafale inductions were just wasting everybody's time.
This was the unfortunate reality:
“Availability, serviceability and reliability will be huge issues. And these are issues which need to be considered. With respect to MMRCA, it should have come, it should have been operational by 2008. Now that we’ve delayed it so long and we’re boxing ourselves into a situation where again cost-factor will come into the picture, you’ve got to decide between FGFA and MMRCA if you’re going to spend 30 billion dollars each on each of the programs – and the country has to take a call. And the reason – the responsibility for this ‘boxing’ is not with the air force. Its with the country as a whole – its with the entire system as a whole. And that’s what you need to look at. Why have you allowed yourself to get boxed in like this?” – Air Marshal (retd) M Matheswaran
Even the 300 Rafales comment was made by an Indian expert. The point being the more Rafales we have the greater the deterrent effect on the Chinese.
